Because to be honest, I never see or hear anyone talk about this patron. The Undying might as well be dead for the amount of attention it receives. I believe that the poll on here had it in dead last for favorite patron for people to play with only about 4% of the vote.
So here's a few questions to ponder on, answer as many or as few as you like:
1. Why do you think this patron is so unpopular? 2. If you think it's unpopular because of mechanics, how could you see it being improved to be more viable? 3. If you think it's unpopular because of roleplay implications, can you think of any interesting characters or roleplay concepts that could work with it, or a way to make it more interesting? 4. Have you ever played an Undying Warlock, and if so what was your experience with it?
I'm really interested in hearing from other people about this, so although I have some ideas of my own, I want to hear what other people say about it first.
It just seems like this is the weakest Patron of all the current options. You get a so-so expanded spell list, plenty of ways to regain hitpoints, slowed aging, and you can reattached body parts. The level 10 Pact Boon, Undying Nature, doesn’t seem useful at all in most situations.
Sometimes I ask myself the same thing. In a story-driven game, why are some less likely to take any story/RP content in favor of pure utility? Is not the story and flavor which bring depth to the roleplaying?
Pretty much all of the Warlock subclasses change how they're played in some way. The fiend gives you some serious blasting capabilities. The old gods lets you talk in peoples minds. Celestial gives you healing, hexblade melee and armor, fae some fun control.
The undying gives you a cantrip you'll rarely use, and some undead stuff. Sure, reattaching limbs is awesomesause. But when are you ever gonna loose a limb in the average campaign? Self healing is nice, but you're a warlock and should be hiding behind your beefier companions.
My biggest issue with this though is that the grave domain took the cantrip this class gets at first level and improved it drastically, making it useless here. The celestial can heal someone back onto their feet with an action, and now the grave domain can stabalize as a bonus action from 30 feet away. And if you really wanna be an edgy nearundead guy, the shadow sorcerer is gonna be the more fun option. Ironically, Xanathar's guide really hammered in the nails to the coffin that is Undying.
Lorewise though I love this class. Nothing better than playing a lich wannabe who makes a pact with a real one in hopes to learn the secret to becoming one himself.
The subclass bonuses are...lackluster and situational. You sort of have healing abilities, but you're not a healer. You get false life, but it's sort of moot once you get your level 6 ability since temp HP can't stack. It's great for flavor, but if you want to serve death you could just as easily be a grave or death domain cleric. I think it could be improved by giving Spare the Dying range like the grave domain cleric, or improving the effectiveness of necromancy cantrips like the death domain cleric.
I am currently playing an Undying warlock and it's not so bad... Spells are kinda meh and the abilities seem to lean more for tanking support. Free spare the dying is okay if the healer in for whatever reason unavailable. Dis adv for undead? Theme wise cool but very situational. Free come back with decent heal is good for survivability and it can be used on others to get them back up again. Rest are just RP; everlasting life and reattaching limbs (who wouldn't want to have a cocktail of body parts?).
In the end i find it okay but the others are way better. Unless you want to be a lich then always be a lich.
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Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Where I think it comes up short is its final ability; you can only use it once a day!
If you want to make it more useful, I would recommend swapping it for something similar to the Champion fighter's final ability. This is what I would change it to.
Indestructible Life: Beginning at level 14, you have a mastery over death. On your turn, if you have hit points equal to or less than half your hit point maximum, you can use a bonus action to regain hit points equal to 1d4+ Your Constitution modifier (Minimum of 1 hit point). In addition, once per 24 hours, when you use this ability while holding a severed body part (Other than your head) to wear it fell off, it reattaches.
I feel that this would not be over powered because you need to use a bonus action, but it also doesn't suck like it used to. There are other abilities that are bad with this subclass, but I personally have always liked it, I think it has some interesting flavor, so people should just give it a chance.
The whole archetype is underpowered more than a horde of sprites. This is one example I like to give of how Sword Coast Adventurer's guide failed to make a viable option. If you want to make a class that is casting focused more durable, give it an ability like the Way of the Long Death Monk's level 11 ability that allows them to repeatedly come back at 1 hp. Make it so you are that undead jerk who won't stop reviving. Make your final ability just a once per day giant revive that heals you for half your HP when you fully die. This is fully appropriate for the level. Also, the earlier ability should at least give some resistance ability. I hate how Wizards has given out these age slower abilities to archetypes when they literally have the Boon of Immortality. If you have this epic character who is supposedly super old but doesn't look it as an NPC, just give them immortality. Ageing never matters in D&D so why make doing it slower a benefit. The Undying Nature should be an earlier ability. Hell, make it the first level ability and this is fine if it is alongside a better version of the current first level ability. The purpose of the pact is to perpetuate life, just make that the first thing you get. Then afterwards make it so you have much better healing than at most 13 HP (+5 Con mod) ONCE PER LONG REST! That is just garbage. You need an ability along the lines of causing fear or some other status defense that allows you to avoid getting hit or make your opponents suck for a short time that comes back on a short rest since warlock is just the short rest master. I wish they never made this archetype. It is one of the reasons why SCAG was a hit and miss with its options. Don't even get me started on Battlerager and Banneret. Bladesinger and the additional Totem Warrior options are passable if done correctly like Beast Master. At least they made Arcana Domain, Oath of the Crown, and Way of the Long Death while the others they thought were good enough to just publish twice in XGtE.
I'm rather late to this party, but I think there's some tactical value to be had in the Undying patron.
For instance, there's something a lot of people seem to overlook: Spare The Dying is a touch based cantrip, which means you can cast it through a familiar. "But wait, doesn't that only work with Pact of the Chain?" Yes and no. Pact of the Chain does get a slightly improved version of Find Familiar, but Pact of the Tome gets a nice little Eldritch Invocation called Book of Ancient Secrets that lets you pick two 1st level ritual spells from any class and add them to your list of known spells, which just so happens to include Find Familiar. It also has the bonus of letting you learn any ritual spell you come across in your travels within the Tome, which unlike an ordinary spellbook can be recreated at no cost after a short rest, meaning you get a lot more than just one niche spell out of the deal.
Something else some people seem to overlook is that Warlocks aren't necessarily rear-line casters; they only get 4 spell slots per rest after all. Warlocks are a very tactical class, and they can be surprisingly at home in melee combat, which funnily enough is where most undead attack from. This means Among the Dead can actually see a fair bit of use since you get it at 1st level and most of the undead you'll encounter, especially at lower levels, will have a low Wisdom score due to their mindless nature. Also, this doesn't just apply to melee; ALL attacks made by undead towards you have to make this save or they simply can't attack you that turn.
On the whole, the Undying is mostly about flavor and situational utility, but that invites creative thinking. For instance, what can Undying Nature do? Well, for starters you don't have to sleep, so your character can stay up and keep watch for your party, provided of course you don't need to rest to recover your spell slots and other abilities. You also don't need to eat or drink, which helps cut down on living expenses. Not having to breathe also has a few straightforward applications, such as staying underwater or in a vacuum indefinitely, but it can also be used to fake your own death; most people would assume that the guy laying on the floor, not breathing and in a pool of his own blood, is actually dead, and considering you can reattach limbs through Indestructible Life and don't require any form of sustenance, it's not that much of stretch to imagine that you really don't need your blood or most of your internal organs, which really helps complete the illusion. Your GM may disagree with me on this, but I think you're an undead in all but name when you're biological functions can be put on indefinite hold.
You seem to be forgetting an important part of Spare the Dying: it uses an action. That's an action you're not using to deal damage to an enemy, healing a team-mate or otherwise controlling the flow of combat. You're using a action to keep an team-mate from immediately dying without moving them or allowing them to move themselves. If they're still within range of the attacker (which is likely the case), they're probably about to fail another death save (or 2 if melee-ed). This point also negates your argument about Warlocks being in melee. If you're using an action to Spare the Dying, you're not attacking the enemy right in front of you. You're taking damage so someone else might live. This is the reason that only Grave Clerics use it liberally, as they can use it as a bonus with their subclass feature, so they can still attack, heal, etc. The Undying can't.
Plus, I would like to point out that, unless you're in a gothic bleak campaign, all good DMs will not have the party fighting undead creatures on a regular basis. They will be fighting beasts, monstrosities, fiends, fey and elementals (and other groups) just as often as undead. This makes Among the Dead very situational in most campaigns.
In the end, a subclass shouldn't be built for flavour at the expense of utility. Archfey makes the player feel ancient Fey powers but doesn't lose their utility and GOO allows the player to feel the mental power of their patron but is still powerful. This is because they have abilities they can use often, which they then relate back to their subclass. The Undying subclass has abilities which are only applicable once in a blue moon, making it very lacklustre in most campaigns.
You seem to be forgetting an important part of Spare the Dying: it uses an action. That's an action you're not using to deal damage to an enemy, healing a team-mate or otherwise controlling the flow of combat. You're using a action to keep an team-mate from immediately dying without moving them or allowing them to move themselves. If they're still within range of the attacker (which is likely the case), they're probably about to fail another death save (or 2 if melee-ed). This point also negates your argument about Warlocks being in melee. If you're using an action to Spare the Dying, you're not attacking the enemy right in front of you. You're taking damage so someone else might live. This is the reason that only Grave Clerics use it liberally, as they can use it as a bonus with their subclass feature, so they can still attack, heal, etc. The Undying can't.
Plus, I would like to point out that, unless you're in a gothic bleak campaign, all good DMs will not have the party fighting undead creatures on a regular basis. They will be fighting beasts, monstrosities, fiends, fey and elementals (and other groups) just as often as undead. This makes Among the Dead very situational in most campaigns.
In the end, a subclass shouldn't be built for flavour at the expense of utility. Archfey makes the player feel ancient Fey powers but doesn't lose their utility and GOO allows the player to feel the mental power of their patron but is still powerful. This is because they have abilities they can use often, which they then relate back to their subclass. The Undying subclass has abilities which are only applicable once in a blue moon, making it very lacklustre in most campaigns.
Very well said. Undying needs a complete overhaul as a subclass which is sad because as flavor, Undying is AWESOME. Making a secret deal with a Lich to teach you the secrets of immortality? Are you kidding? That is DRIPPING with RP potential but it cannot hardly do a thing in combat outside of the core warlock mechanics.
It just seems like this is the weakest Patron of all the current options. You get a so-so expanded spell list, plenty of ways to regain hitpoints, slowed aging, and you can reattached body parts. The level 10 Pact Boon, Undying Nature, doesn’t seem useful at all in most situations.
I actually.... the spell list is pretty dang good. Undying Nature means you can keep watch all night every night so gaining proficiency/expertise in perception becomes very nice and you don't have to use weight or money on rations of food which is very useful if you actually track food/supplies and/or your using variant encumbrance (which we do at both the table I GM and the table where I am a player).
Ray of sickness at level 1, non-concentration poisoned condition giving the target disadvantage on attacks and scaled damage with pact slots so its not a waste of a higher level spell slots is not bad and saving does not reduce the damage. It's an improved
Blindness/deafness at level 3 (non-concentration advantage on all attacks vs target and can combine with early level hex) is good. Speak with the dead at level 5 is really useful for gathering information and moving story forward, more so on a class that restores spell slots on a short rest.
Death Ward (non-concentration) and Aura of Life at level 7 makes a pretty scary short ranged warlock making it so they can avoid losing concentration by falling to 1 instead of 0 and then everyone else can't drop as long as the warlock stands within 30ft and they don't do enough damage to instant kill without saves... which is the majority of the time. Using eather improved pact weapon (reach/range) or range cantrips but staying within 30ft as a means of protecting yourself due to low armor (only light armor proficiency and no shield).
The big lose is the level one ability is basically spare the dying. Which is nice to have in any group but its not very interesting or offensive. As a result any players who want them to be the shinning sword will ignore this subclass since it doesn't get a defensive or offensive ability to make them shine. As per usual many players focus on them doing damage not the survival of the group. People often choice shield spell and Scorching Ray over hold person for the same reason. They want to not die them selves and they want to do as much damage as THEY can. Hold person stops that target from attacking anyone and lets everyone beat down on it which is way better for the chances of PARTY victory. It does not really let the player shine though as them doing 0 damage followed by the barbarian do 100 damage to that target becomes a shining moment for the barbarian not the caster of hold person.
This class is good for a player who wants to do well and keep the party alive that doesn't need to be a shining star. Any player who HAS to try for #1 despite reducing party survival over better options will pick a different subclass. Unfortunately, players looking to shine are ALOT more common than players who want to give the party the best chance of success, so this sub-class gets the short end of the stick. Even those taking a support roll are likely to go for the shine of "I just healed 200 hp" over "as long as I stand the party can not fall" even though this can be more effective.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
I think one of the biggest things people overlook with Warlocks is the conditions by which a character would have made a pact. The class had some lackluster elements but it more than shines in flavor and roleplay implications. There is no shortage of backstories that might lead to a character wanting desperately to have more time to achieve something, aging slower leads into that super well, especially given that the patron has necromantic ties as well.
A father losing his child in his teen years and turning to any means of being with them again is something that immediately comes to mind. An idea I think is super interesting is taking that idea and working with it in tandem with pact of the chain to somehow have the Warlock's familiar be inhabited by the Warlock's child. That would probably be a fairly easy bargaining chip for the undying patron and has a lot of fantastic roleplay potential.
Just poking my head in here for a mostly irrelevant perspective, but I got to this thread from checking out Patrons for a Blood Hunter I'm making, and this Patron is like...INSANE for a beefy strength build at a glance. As a warlock I can clearly see how this could be one of the more underwhelming options, but it's at the very least interesting and flavorful in my opinion :)
Just poking my head in here for a mostly irrelevant perspective, but I got to this thread from checking out Patrons for a Blood Hunter I'm making, and this Patron is like...INSANE for a beefy strength build at a glance. As a warlock I can clearly see how this could be one of the more underwhelming options, but it's at the very least interesting and flavorful in my opinion :)
I've noticed this too; while the Undying is weak as a Warlock Patron, it's one of the best choices for a Profane Soul Bloodhunter.
I Liked the concept but found that it was very situational, So i rebuilt it to be a bit more useful in any scenario. Please let me know what you think.
Expanded spell list 1st level False life, inflict wounds ------------------------ 2nd level bark skin, Web ------------------------ 3rd level speak with dead, beacon of hope (temp) ----------------------- 4th level vitriolic sphere, summon greater steed ------------------------ 5th level negative energy flood, Hallow ------------------------
1st level ability: Defy Death 6th level ability: March of the inevitable 10th level ability: Undead Nature 14th level ability: Stare into the abyss
1st level Defy death Starting at 1st level you know the Spare the dying cantrip as though it were a warlock cantrip. Whenever you cheat death or help someone else cheat it. You can regain 1d8+constitution modifier whenever you succeed on a death saving throw or when you use spare the dying to stabilize a creature. You can use this ability an equal number of times to your CHA modifier. At 6th level it will increase to 2d8. At 10th level it will increase to 3d8. At 14th level it will increase to 4d8.
6th March of the inevitable On your turn you can point at a corpse within 45 feet and it will dissolve, restoring one of your spell slots. If you point at an undead it must make a constitution saving throw against your spell save DC, dying instantly on failure or having nothing happen to it on a success. You can use this ability once per long or short rest.
10th Undead Nature Your patron gifts you the same constitution that many undead enjoy, you are now immune to poison and necrotic damage. don't need to eat, sleep or drink.
14th level Stare into the Abyss When you are in combat you can use your action to cast any creature you see into the domain of your patron dealing 1d12 necrotic damage per warlock level to that creature.
Personally, Remus, let me say that I love your Username and your rendition of the undying.
It certainly turns a wannabe lich sidekick into a serious spellcaster.
My only thought is that is possibly makes the class very overpowered, if the DM drops you into a favourable situation. Instantly heal yourself Xd8+Con from lvl1 and regain spell slots from corpses?
Lore wise that's ridiculously awesome, but mechanically seems OP.
Because to be honest, I never see or hear anyone talk about this patron. The Undying might as well be dead for the amount of attention it receives. I believe that the poll on here had it in dead last for favorite patron for people to play with only about 4% of the vote.
So here's a few questions to ponder on, answer as many or as few as you like:
1. Why do you think this patron is so unpopular?
2. If you think it's unpopular because of mechanics, how could you see it being improved to be more viable?
3. If you think it's unpopular because of roleplay implications, can you think of any interesting characters or roleplay concepts that could work with it, or a way to make it more interesting?
4. Have you ever played an Undying Warlock, and if so what was your experience with it?
I'm really interested in hearing from other people about this, so although I have some ideas of my own, I want to hear what other people say about it first.
It just seems like this is the weakest Patron of all the current options. You get a so-so expanded spell list, plenty of ways to regain hitpoints, slowed aging, and you can reattached body parts. The level 10 Pact Boon, Undying Nature, doesn’t seem useful at all in most situations.
Sometimes I ask myself the same thing. In a story-driven game, why are some less likely to take any story/RP content in favor of pure utility? Is not the story and flavor which bring depth to the roleplaying?
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Pretty much all of the Warlock subclasses change how they're played in some way. The fiend gives you some serious blasting capabilities. The old gods lets you talk in peoples minds. Celestial gives you healing, hexblade melee and armor, fae some fun control.
The undying gives you a cantrip you'll rarely use, and some undead stuff. Sure, reattaching limbs is awesomesause. But when are you ever gonna loose a limb in the average campaign? Self healing is nice, but you're a warlock and should be hiding behind your beefier companions.
My biggest issue with this though is that the grave domain took the cantrip this class gets at first level and improved it drastically, making it useless here. The celestial can heal someone back onto their feet with an action, and now the grave domain can stabalize as a bonus action from 30 feet away. And if you really wanna be an edgy nearundead guy, the shadow sorcerer is gonna be the more fun option. Ironically, Xanathar's guide really hammered in the nails to the coffin that is Undying.
Lorewise though I love this class. Nothing better than playing a lich wannabe who makes a pact with a real one in hopes to learn the secret to becoming one himself.
The subclass bonuses are...lackluster and situational. You sort of have healing abilities, but you're not a healer. You get false life, but it's sort of moot once you get your level 6 ability since temp HP can't stack. It's great for flavor, but if you want to serve death you could just as easily be a grave or death domain cleric. I think it could be improved by giving Spare the Dying range like the grave domain cleric, or improving the effectiveness of necromancy cantrips like the death domain cleric.
I am currently playing an Undying warlock and it's not so bad... Spells are kinda meh and the abilities seem to lean more for tanking support. Free spare the dying is okay if the healer in for whatever reason unavailable. Dis adv for undead? Theme wise cool but very situational. Free come back with decent heal is good for survivability and it can be used on others to get them back up again. Rest are just RP; everlasting life and reattaching limbs (who wouldn't want to have a cocktail of body parts?).
In the end i find it okay but the others are way better. Unless you want to be a lich then always be a lich.
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
I'd play a Chain Pact Undying Warlock just for the LULZ if the DM let me have a Crawling Claw for my familiar.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
Where I think it comes up short is its final ability; you can only use it once a day!
If you want to make it more useful, I would recommend swapping it for something similar to the Champion fighter's final ability. This is what I would change it to.
Indestructible Life: Beginning at level 14, you have a mastery over death. On your turn, if you have hit points equal to or less than half your hit point maximum, you can use a bonus action to regain hit points equal to 1d4+ Your Constitution modifier (Minimum of 1 hit point). In addition, once per 24 hours, when you use this ability while holding a severed body part (Other than your head) to wear it fell off, it reattaches.
I feel that this would not be over powered because you need to use a bonus action, but it also doesn't suck like it used to. There are other abilities that are bad with this subclass, but I personally have always liked it, I think it has some interesting flavor, so people should just give it a chance.
The whole archetype is underpowered more than a horde of sprites. This is one example I like to give of how Sword Coast Adventurer's guide failed to make a viable option. If you want to make a class that is casting focused more durable, give it an ability like the Way of the Long Death Monk's level 11 ability that allows them to repeatedly come back at 1 hp. Make it so you are that undead jerk who won't stop reviving. Make your final ability just a once per day giant revive that heals you for half your HP when you fully die. This is fully appropriate for the level. Also, the earlier ability should at least give some resistance ability. I hate how Wizards has given out these age slower abilities to archetypes when they literally have the Boon of Immortality. If you have this epic character who is supposedly super old but doesn't look it as an NPC, just give them immortality. Ageing never matters in D&D so why make doing it slower a benefit. The Undying Nature should be an earlier ability. Hell, make it the first level ability and this is fine if it is alongside a better version of the current first level ability. The purpose of the pact is to perpetuate life, just make that the first thing you get. Then afterwards make it so you have much better healing than at most 13 HP (+5 Con mod) ONCE PER LONG REST! That is just garbage. You need an ability along the lines of causing fear or some other status defense that allows you to avoid getting hit or make your opponents suck for a short time that comes back on a short rest since warlock is just the short rest master. I wish they never made this archetype. It is one of the reasons why SCAG was a hit and miss with its options. Don't even get me started on Battlerager and Banneret. Bladesinger and the additional Totem Warrior options are passable if done correctly like Beast Master. At least they made Arcana Domain, Oath of the Crown, and Way of the Long Death while the others they thought were good enough to just publish twice in XGtE.
Undying is actually my favorite patron to play (I highly enjoy necromancers) it makes for a good necromancy build
I'm rather late to this party, but I think there's some tactical value to be had in the Undying patron.
For instance, there's something a lot of people seem to overlook: Spare The Dying is a touch based cantrip, which means you can cast it through a familiar. "But wait, doesn't that only work with Pact of the Chain?" Yes and no. Pact of the Chain does get a slightly improved version of Find Familiar, but Pact of the Tome gets a nice little Eldritch Invocation called Book of Ancient Secrets that lets you pick two 1st level ritual spells from any class and add them to your list of known spells, which just so happens to include Find Familiar. It also has the bonus of letting you learn any ritual spell you come across in your travels within the Tome, which unlike an ordinary spellbook can be recreated at no cost after a short rest, meaning you get a lot more than just one niche spell out of the deal.
Something else some people seem to overlook is that Warlocks aren't necessarily rear-line casters; they only get 4 spell slots per rest after all. Warlocks are a very tactical class, and they can be surprisingly at home in melee combat, which funnily enough is where most undead attack from. This means Among the Dead can actually see a fair bit of use since you get it at 1st level and most of the undead you'll encounter, especially at lower levels, will have a low Wisdom score due to their mindless nature. Also, this doesn't just apply to melee; ALL attacks made by undead towards you have to make this save or they simply can't attack you that turn.
On the whole, the Undying is mostly about flavor and situational utility, but that invites creative thinking. For instance, what can Undying Nature do? Well, for starters you don't have to sleep, so your character can stay up and keep watch for your party, provided of course you don't need to rest to recover your spell slots and other abilities. You also don't need to eat or drink, which helps cut down on living expenses. Not having to breathe also has a few straightforward applications, such as staying underwater or in a vacuum indefinitely, but it can also be used to fake your own death; most people would assume that the guy laying on the floor, not breathing and in a pool of his own blood, is actually dead, and considering you can reattach limbs through Indestructible Life and don't require any form of sustenance, it's not that much of stretch to imagine that you really don't need your blood or most of your internal organs, which really helps complete the illusion. Your GM may disagree with me on this, but I think you're an undead in all but name when you're biological functions can be put on indefinite hold.
Brutalyte616
You seem to be forgetting an important part of Spare the Dying: it uses an action. That's an action you're not using to deal damage to an enemy, healing a team-mate or otherwise controlling the flow of combat. You're using a action to keep an team-mate from immediately dying without moving them or allowing them to move themselves. If they're still within range of the attacker (which is likely the case), they're probably about to fail another death save (or 2 if melee-ed). This point also negates your argument about Warlocks being in melee. If you're using an action to Spare the Dying, you're not attacking the enemy right in front of you. You're taking damage so someone else might live. This is the reason that only Grave Clerics use it liberally, as they can use it as a bonus with their subclass feature, so they can still attack, heal, etc. The Undying can't.
Plus, I would like to point out that, unless you're in a gothic bleak campaign, all good DMs will not have the party fighting undead creatures on a regular basis. They will be fighting beasts, monstrosities, fiends, fey and elementals (and other groups) just as often as undead. This makes Among the Dead very situational in most campaigns.
In the end, a subclass shouldn't be built for flavour at the expense of utility. Archfey makes the player feel ancient Fey powers but doesn't lose their utility and GOO allows the player to feel the mental power of their patron but is still powerful. This is because they have abilities they can use often, which they then relate back to their subclass. The Undying subclass has abilities which are only applicable once in a blue moon, making it very lacklustre in most campaigns.
Very well said. Undying needs a complete overhaul as a subclass which is sad because as flavor, Undying is AWESOME. Making a secret deal with a Lich to teach you the secrets of immortality? Are you kidding? That is DRIPPING with RP potential but it cannot hardly do a thing in combat outside of the core warlock mechanics.
I actually.... the spell list is pretty dang good. Undying Nature means you can keep watch all night every night so gaining proficiency/expertise in perception becomes very nice and you don't have to use weight or money on rations of food which is very useful if you actually track food/supplies and/or your using variant encumbrance (which we do at both the table I GM and the table where I am a player).
Ray of sickness at level 1, non-concentration poisoned condition giving the target disadvantage on attacks and scaled damage with pact slots so its not a waste of a higher level spell slots is not bad and saving does not reduce the damage. It's an improved
Blindness/deafness at level 3 (non-concentration advantage on all attacks vs target and can combine with early level hex) is good. Speak with the dead at level 5 is really useful for gathering information and moving story forward, more so on a class that restores spell slots on a short rest.
Death Ward (non-concentration) and Aura of Life at level 7 makes a pretty scary short ranged warlock making it so they can avoid losing concentration by falling to 1 instead of 0 and then everyone else can't drop as long as the warlock stands within 30ft and they don't do enough damage to instant kill without saves... which is the majority of the time. Using eather improved pact weapon (reach/range) or range cantrips but staying within 30ft as a means of protecting yourself due to low armor (only light armor proficiency and no shield).
The big lose is the level one ability is basically spare the dying. Which is nice to have in any group but its not very interesting or offensive. As a result any players who want them to be the shinning sword will ignore this subclass since it doesn't get a defensive or offensive ability to make them shine. As per usual many players focus on them doing damage not the survival of the group. People often choice shield spell and Scorching Ray over hold person for the same reason. They want to not die them selves and they want to do as much damage as THEY can. Hold person stops that target from attacking anyone and lets everyone beat down on it which is way better for the chances of PARTY victory. It does not really let the player shine though as them doing 0 damage followed by the barbarian do 100 damage to that target becomes a shining moment for the barbarian not the caster of hold person.
This class is good for a player who wants to do well and keep the party alive that doesn't need to be a shining star. Any player who HAS to try for #1 despite reducing party survival over better options will pick a different subclass. Unfortunately, players looking to shine are ALOT more common than players who want to give the party the best chance of success, so this sub-class gets the short end of the stick. Even those taking a support roll are likely to go for the shine of "I just healed 200 hp" over "as long as I stand the party can not fall" even though this can be more effective.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
I think one of the biggest things people overlook with Warlocks is the conditions by which a character would have made a pact. The class had some lackluster elements but it more than shines in flavor and roleplay implications. There is no shortage of backstories that might lead to a character wanting desperately to have more time to achieve something, aging slower leads into that super well, especially given that the patron has necromantic ties as well.
A father losing his child in his teen years and turning to any means of being with them again is something that immediately comes to mind. An idea I think is super interesting is taking that idea and working with it in tandem with pact of the chain to somehow have the Warlock's familiar be inhabited by the Warlock's child. That would probably be a fairly easy bargaining chip for the undying patron and has a lot of fantastic roleplay potential.
Just poking my head in here for a mostly irrelevant perspective, but I got to this thread from checking out Patrons for a Blood Hunter I'm making, and this Patron is like...INSANE for a beefy strength build at a glance. As a warlock I can clearly see how this could be one of the more underwhelming options, but it's at the very least interesting and flavorful in my opinion :)
I've noticed this too; while the Undying is weak as a Warlock Patron, it's one of the best choices for a Profane Soul Bloodhunter.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
I Liked the concept but found that it was very situational, So i rebuilt it to be a bit more useful in any scenario. Please let me know what you think.
Expanded spell list
1st level
False life, inflict wounds
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2nd level
bark skin, Web
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3rd level
speak with dead, beacon of hope (temp)
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4th level
vitriolic sphere, summon greater steed
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5th level
negative energy flood, Hallow
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1st level ability: Defy Death
6th level ability: March of the inevitable
10th level ability: Undead Nature
14th level ability: Stare into the abyss
1st level
Defy death
Starting at 1st level you know the Spare the dying cantrip as though it were a warlock cantrip. Whenever you cheat death or help someone else cheat it. You can regain 1d8+constitution modifier whenever you succeed on a death saving throw or when you use spare the dying to stabilize a creature. You can use this ability an equal number of times to your CHA modifier.
At 6th level it will increase to 2d8. At 10th level it will increase to 3d8. At 14th level it will increase to 4d8.
6th
March of the inevitable
On your turn you can point at a corpse within 45 feet and it will dissolve, restoring one of your spell slots. If you point at an undead it must make a constitution saving throw against your spell save DC, dying instantly on failure or having nothing happen to it on a success. You can use this ability once per long or short rest.
10th
Undead Nature
Your patron gifts you the same constitution that many undead enjoy, you are now immune to poison and necrotic damage. don't need to eat, sleep or drink.
14th level
Stare into the Abyss
When you are in combat you can use your action to cast any creature you see into the domain of your patron dealing 1d12 necrotic damage per warlock level to that creature.
Personally, Remus, let me say that I love your Username and your rendition of the undying.
It certainly turns a wannabe lich sidekick into a serious spellcaster.
My only thought is that is possibly makes the class very overpowered, if the DM drops you into a favourable situation. Instantly heal yourself Xd8+Con from lvl1 and regain spell slots from corpses?
Lore wise that's ridiculously awesome, but mechanically seems OP.
I am currently playing an undying warlock.
So far... It's nice for a storyline but the major weakness is that spare the dying is a touch spell