I am currently playing Undying warlcok. While from a mechanics perspective not as powerful, it has HUGE RP. Play it on the Tomb of Annihilation Campaign like I am. The undead encouters are fun cause I just walk around pillaging things not getting attacked cause of the Among the Dead ability. Fun fun. Also I took Pact of the Tomb for more spells and Magic Initiate as Human Variant which adds many spells for an already small spell list. This class has it's perks. Pact of tomb with a familiar ritual helps eliminate the spare of dying being a touch spell. Summon a flying familiar and done. The mechanics part can be overcome with customizing and picking the race that could help fix your things. I am enjoying my Undying Warlock Overall.
I'm also playing an Undying Warlock. See, I'm old and have been playing D&D for decades, so I'm totally over min/max mechanics. I picked the Patron because of the RP potential for it. (I'm going for a neutral-positive based Undead, not pure negative evil.), and the abilities are great for things outside of combat. No sleep, no eating, no breathing. Virtual immortality (to a point). Such a time and money saver. You know, actual Role-Playing. That thing some of you seem to forget with a munchkin wargamer attitude. *sigh*
I do admit, some things are lacklustre, especially the extra spells (raise undead should be on there), and not actually stopping aging, but overall, I'm loving exploring it. The patron is what you and the GM make of it. Which, is where you should discuss it all beforehand with them and make the most out of your choices and change what both of you agree on (if applicable). That's the beauty of RPGs. You'd know this is you've played a long time and played the many other RPG systems and genres out there, than simply D&D.
Sorry, digressing. The Undying Patron is great and I fell in love with it. Enjoying reading others takes on it. Some are good long-term thoughts, while others seem geared towards short-sighted thinking about fights and powers.
See, I'm old and have been playing D&D for decades, so I'm totally over min/max mechanics.
OT - I often find myself comparing 5E with 1E.
Do you do that as well?
Oh, I compare it to 1st, 2nd/AD&D, 3rd/3.5 all the time. (Just not 4th because...reasons.) Heck, in one of my games, we mix in older edition things to add more to the campaign.
But that's a different topic. Although again, the Undying may need a light tweak for better flavour and use, it's great for home games. If you only play that limited Adventure League thing, (which I don't) then I can understand why people would say it isn't any good for them. There's no RP or long-term usage in those wham-bam-thank you-ma'am, games. That's a shame that magnifies the rift between AL where plowing through fast with combat is king vs home games like say, how Critical Role is more about RP and talking, for example.
You know, actual Role-Playing. That thing some of you seem to forget with a munchkin wargamer attitude. *sigh*
I do admit, some things are lacklustre, especially the extra spells (raise undead should be on there), and not actually stopping aging,...
Sigh. I am also an old player from the 2nd edition era. Your making an assumption that commenters, like myself, are not giving this Patron a fair shake because we are short-sighted munchkin wargammers obsessed with “winning” 5e and unconcerned with RP. I don’t see why you come to that assumption just because many of us prefer the features of other Patrons (Fiend is my personal favorite). Role play is really fundamental to the Warlock and all patrons. I don’t like the Undying Patron but I also don’t like the Celestial Warlock (I think the Pact should always be a dark bargain...).
From what I experienced in this forum, posters are big fans of the warlock class and have a good working knowledge of all aspects from Roleplaying, to creating flavorful backstories and, yes, even optimizing. This is a very knowledgeable group of posters.
Just a friendly counter point from another “old” player.
You know, actual Role-Playing. That thing some of you seem to forget with a munchkin wargamer attitude. *sigh*
I do admit, some things are lacklustre, especially the extra spells (raise undead should be on there), and not actually stopping aging,...
Sigh. I am also an old player from the 2nd edition era. Your making an assumption that commenters, like myself, are not giving this Patron a fair shake because we are short-sighted munchkin wargammers obsessed with “winning” 5e and unconcerned with RP. I don’t see why you come to that assumption just because many of us prefer the features of other Patrons (Fiend is my personal favorite). Role play is really fundamental to the Warlock and all patrons. I don’t like the Undying Patron but I also don’t like the Celestial Warlock (I think the Pact should always be a dark bargain...).
From what I experienced in this forum, posters are big fans of the warlock class and have a good working knowledge of all aspects from Roleplaying, to creating flavorful backstories and, yes, even optimizing. This is a very knowledgeable group of posters.
Just a friendly counter point from another “old” player.
Everything Ghastly Orphans said goes for me as well; I've been playing long enough to enjoy every edition of D&D, including the much-and-wrongly-maligned 4E. I would also point out that 5E borrowed a number of design features from 4E.
All the Warlock Pacts (except the Hexblade) have excellent RP potential. Most of them have useful in-game features as well. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have both for our characters.
I am going to be playing this archetype. Mechanically, it's meh... but with RP in mind, it's great. My character "Radovan 'Van' Gaultier II" is a waterdhavian noble who was always obsessed with learning about vampirism, one day he discovered that one of his ancestors from long ago was a vampire. Through browsing his fathers private library he also discovered that ancestor was still very much "alive". Locked away in a secret chamber beneath the family tomb. He found the chamber and met his vampiric great, great, great, great, great.... etc. uncle "Ivor Gaultier". He requested that Van aid him in finding a final resting place, far from the eyes and ears of his estranged family. In exchange, Ivor would grant him otherworldly powers, and eventually, once the task was complete, true immortality through vampirism.
I almost exclusively play Warlock and Undying Patron is my favourite archetype. It's pretty trash though. Mechanics matter. A lot. Shadow Sorcerer is like an undead caster, just more fun. Grave Domain gets the same cantrip and makes it ten times better. Way of the Long Death Monklaughs at our Defy Death feature. Yet I still love the archetype. I love playing undead characters, and the Undying Patron is the best way for me to express myself.
So why do I say that mechanics matter then if I'm just here for the RP? They give the framework for a character. Most people will reflavour stuff to fit their character. I have a Spell Sniper character who shoots Eldritch Blast bullets out of his Arcane Gun (Staff Arcane Focus). His Dark One's Blessing I reflavoured into Sadistic Glee, giving him temporary HP whenever he kills a hostile creature because it makes him pump adrenaline through his body. Undying Patron doesn't offer much in the way of mechanics.
Defy Death is the best feature we get and really flavourful. Too bad it's once per long rest though, but it's probably more balanced this way. Among the Dead is almost useless. Even if you're in an undead campaign, very often you're going to attack the enemy either way or wouldn't even be a target. When it comes into effect it feels good, but probably not because you think "My character used his strength to his advantage" and more likely because "I can't believe this ability is actually useful once." Spare the Dying is a nice cantrip and a class like Warlock is happy about every free spell they get. That's the real feature we get at level 1. It's just a punch in the face that Grave Clerics show how much better it could've been implemented. Sure, Spare the Dying gets better at level 6, when you get your own HP back upon casting it. Once per long rest. Undying Nature is nice. It's mostly a ribbon but it's a very good ribbon. Not the slower aging part, no one cares about that. Being able to neglect sleep, food water and air is huge. Indestructible Life is just.. you literally took the Second Wind from the Fighter class, a level 1 feature, and sold it to us as a level 14 feature. Really?
What really sells the Undying Warlock to me is the Spell List. Blindness/Deafness is a solid debuff and getting Silence is also major. Aura of Life and Death Ward makes us almost a real Necromancer in preventing our friends from dying.
On the same note, there are a lot of missed opportunities with the spell list. No Animate Dead ? Huge flavour fail. And I don't wanna hear any excuses about "unlimited spell slots" or whatever. Even if we have to pass on the Animate Dead, could we not at least get a Revivify or Raise Dead?
I Liked the concept but found that it was very situational, So i rebuilt it to be a bit more useful in any scenario. Please let me know what you think. ------------------------
1st level ability: Defy Death 6th level ability: March of the inevitable 10th level ability: Undead Nature 14th level ability: Stare into the abyss
1st level Defy death Starting at 1st level you know the Spare the dying cantrip as though it were a warlock cantrip. Whenever you cheat death or help someone else cheat it. You can regain 1d8+constitution modifier whenever you succeed on a death saving throw or when you use spare the dying to stabilize a creature. You can use this ability an equal number of times to your CHA modifier. At 6th level it will increase to 2d8. At 10th level it will increase to 3d8. At 14th level it will increase to 4d8.
This seems a bit much for a 1st level ability. You can also use Spare the Undying on an NPC so this might create an incentive for a player to hire a bunch of weak NPC Fighters or whatever just to have a battery of heals. I would say once at 1st level, twice at 10th level, thrice at 18th level. And 4d8 for a healing Cantrip? That's basically a 3rd level spell slot of Cure Wounds.
I Liked the concept but found that it was very situational, So i rebuilt it to be a bit more useful in any scenario. Please let me know what you think.
6th March of the inevitable On your turn you can point at a corpse within 45 feet and it will dissolve, restoring one of your spell slots. If you point at an undead it must make a constitution saving throw against your spell save DC, dying instantly on failure or having nothing happen to it on a success. You can use this ability once per long or short rest.
I would say that this is both very OP in a Ravenloft-life setting and kind of anti-thematic. If your patron is an Undead power player of some kind, why would you want you destroying other undead creatures left and right? I feel like bolstering undead would make a lot more sense from the POV of theme.
14th level Stare into the Abyss When you are in combat you can use your action to cast any creature you see into the domain of your patron dealing 1d12 necrotic damage per warlock level to that creature.
This seems to be a more powerful version of Hurl Through Hell from the Fiend pact. Also kind of OP and not very flavorful considering no powerful undead has this type of ability. Something more similar to the Sickening Radiance spell would be more thematic or perhaps being able to inflict a level or two of exhaustion on your enemies if they fail a CON save would fit better.
I think the Undying Patron suffers from a couple things honestly.
One of those things I would argue is the way that a lot of people look at playing the Warlock in general. Things like Being obsessed with how they can maximize EB damage despite the fact that it's not necessarily the most damaging thing that a Warlock can do on a regular basis. As well as trouble seeing the utility in some things so they will discount certain pacts over others. Keep in mind I'm not saying that all players do this. But more than enough of them do. I've had long debates over this kind of stuff in many places and certain things like Hexblade have eased it a little but not as much.
Another problem is how little grasp on time moving inside the game that people can have playing these games. I've seen plenty of players young and old treat a campaign that technically took a decade or more of time more similar to "what I did on my Summer Vacation" Or "My Backpacking trip through Europe". And these weren't campaigns that had overly long gaps of downtime regularly like does happen in some games. it can be easy to not notice or forget. "Oh we've spent over a month down here underground already." "we've spent 3 days infiltrating these passages and this crypt." "we spent two weeks getting across the world to our new destination." For many human or aging equivilant races this means that they have likely spent a quarter to third of their life on that epic adventure that got them through to level 20 and made famous heroes that slayed some great threat quite easily. But it's just so overlookable much of the time.
Then when you combine those issues with the fact that some of their abilities just don't have as easily obvious and immediate uses as some of the others and it gets even more problematic. it's pretty easy to see value in talking in other peoples heads, disorienting or charming somebody in battle or Hurling an Opponent through Hell momentarily and them being scarred by the experience. it's not so easy to see the value in somewhat less astounding and slightly more lack luster abilities like attaching a limb instead of having to find some way to regrow it or find a replacement or go without since that doesn't come up often in their campaigns.
And an ability to have undead of many kinds just plain ignore you so that you can tactically pick the targets where you can help the most rather than having to deal with the peons that are coming from the back of the room near you to wreck your day and keep you from helping with the big bad guy to end the fight Seems Extra useless. specially if they aren't dealing with a lot of undead. Even though undead can be found at a lot of different levels of play and in a lot of varieties of environments. People get more focused on other things and often relegate their chance of needing to deal with undead to something that only happens in certain settings or at certain level brackets that they aren't in so they aren't a big worry. Which is something I think DM's should exploit from time to time myself honestly.
Now Keep in mind I'm not saying there aren't some issues with the Undying. I actually like them quite a bit. They definitely have an interesting flavor and they are something a good DM and player could potentially work with on a lot of levels.
But they aren't exactly all bad. Their spell list while it might not be much for causing damage. Has some real valuable tools provided to it.While spare the dying has sadly be eclipsed by the grave cleric. which wasn't even an inkling of a thing when the Undying came out there are other spells on it's list can still be quite strong and help to actually sway some dangerous encounters that are often overlooked. Not only that, but they have access to one of the nastier disease/curse spells in the game in Contagion. It can mess up a lot of big bad guys weeks if you can land it. Specially if your party has done things to it to blow legendary resistances it might have had.
I just made a character that has chosen this patron. Race is Simic Hybrid, but not set up as part of the Ravnica world. More like a lab experiment for that Magicians and "Healers". So she has the manta glide, and will eventually get the feature that gives +1 AC. She also has an arm replaced with a green dragonborn arm, and that appendage is the one that shoots the cantrip Poison Spray. Did Pact of the Tomb, with Secret Book invocation (don't recall exact name) so she can get Find Familiar. Trying to figure out the other rituals I would want. Probably Alarm? Anyway I think she will be pretty fun to RP if I get the chance. I only have time to do one game a week.
I Liked the concept but found that it was very situational, So i rebuilt it to be a bit more useful in any scenario. Please let me know what you think.
I like the concepts a lot, but this is very overpowered.
For march of the inevitable, I assume it takes an action to regain a spell slot this way. I do love the idea for this ability though, anything that lets Warlock's regain spell slots in a way with a cost is good. I would limit it though to once per short rest. Also, it really should have a cap on the CR of the undead it can vaporize, or else you could one-shot a lich with it.
For Stare Into The Abyss, I am assuming this is a once per long rest ability, but even then dealing 14d12 damage is insane, especially without a save or spending a spell slot. And it goes up to 20d12 too.
I definitely think a good version of the undying patron would be defined by two things: being very hard to kill and being a more advanced spellcaster. I like that this version focuses on those aspects.
I actually love the idea of an Undying Patron, already had a concept of an young Aarakocra that has been exposed to other races and felt it was unfair that their lifespan was so short and made a pack with an Undying Patron to live longer.
The pack is, they must take 'Toll the dead' Cantrip but their version is every time someone gets tolled some spiritual energy gets sent to the Patron. or Maybe they must take Soul Cage at level 13 as their Mystic Arcanum (7th Level) and the patron gets 3 out of the 6 uses of the soul.
As for Changes, I would love to see level 6 be something like either
Sorcerer - Draconic Bloodline - elemental affinity but with any necrotic damage. or
I only recently realise how bad the Undying warlock is when someone brought it up on reddit. Basically, its not bad because its weak, but more like you don't have a subclass if you aren't fighting undead, dealing with disease, or having you or your allies making death saves. There's so many bad design in this subclass, and i will show why.
Among the Dead - Basically useless against non-undead. So you don't have a subclass 99% of the time. Disease? Rare enough as it is, and paladins can just lay on hands it off anyway. Low level undead aren't the smartest guys, you can easily hide behind the meatshields of the party. High level undead usually have good Wisdom saves, so chances are they still can get their attack off. Also, they still can Fireball you. Trash ability.
Defy Death - The best feature of Undying, but its not saying much, because of the once per day limit. Dont know why they have to be so stingy with this, when the Fiend, Archfey, and GOO all have level 6 features that are short rest cool down. But this is an example of poor design. If your party play optimally, avoid taking damage and avoid making death saves, you are essentially punished by not having a feature. Basically, prevention is still better than cure.
Undying Nature - Seriously, this couldn't have come earlier? If at level 10 you are still having trouble with food and water, you are doing something wrong. Not having to sleep is nice, but not worth the wait. Xanathars have an invocation that does the same thing for Tome locks. The slowed aging is just useless.
Indestructible Life - A glorified Second Wind that comes too late. Also, i think abilities that allow you to regrow or reattach limbs are quite useless as there are no mechanics for that, so most DMs won't do that to your PC anyway.
So as you can see, at the start of a standard combat session, and probably for the first few rounds after that, A level 14 Undying gets absolutely nothing that they can use, if they are not up against very specific things. Their out of combat utility is next to none too, but once they are level 10, at least they make a good guard dog during the night. Their expanded spell list is nothing to great too. Curiously, they are missing resistance to necrotic damage, something that would be quite thematic for them.
I like the undying, it is rich in roleplaying options.
as for power and/or usefulness of abilies; that completely depends on the DM,campaign,table. If your game is about rolling dice I.e. the "white room" combat in a controlled environment.... I guess undying fizzles. but if you work with your abilities in creative ways you can "activate" the cool/power factor. I.e. pact of the chain allows your familier to deliver spare the dying without you having to move into the fray. you could use a poisonous gas with undying nature to put enemies at a disadvantage in your vicinity. etc
It really just has a moderately useful ward, they can heal a little when someone is at 0, and they can heal themselves a little every once in awhile. Oh and aging isn't a problem. That's not much. At all. Other warlocks get to interact with others outside of them being near dead. The final power of the subclass is nearly nothing next to throwing someone through hell or having a free deathward. The only redeeming factor is that each ability does synergise with itself. Say you knock them to 0, they then stand up and put their hand back on. That's it. It's basically all flavor.
This is a bit of a cross post so bear with me. My Character for tomorrow is a Level 1 Warlock & Level 3 Rogue Assassin. I was looking at the undying just being I like killing people so my Patron is my contact for making a living, plus it makes grave robbing a little easier since undead are weaker against me.
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I am currently playing Undying warlcok. While from a mechanics perspective not as powerful, it has HUGE RP. Play it on the Tomb of Annihilation Campaign like I am. The undead encouters are fun cause I just walk around pillaging things not getting attacked cause of the Among the Dead ability. Fun fun. Also I took Pact of the Tomb for more spells and Magic Initiate as Human Variant which adds many spells for an already small spell list. This class has it's perks. Pact of tomb with a familiar ritual helps eliminate the spare of dying being a touch spell. Summon a flying familiar and done. The mechanics part can be overcome with customizing and picking the race that could help fix your things. I am enjoying my Undying Warlock Overall.
I'm also playing an Undying Warlock. See, I'm old and have been playing D&D for decades, so I'm totally over min/max mechanics. I picked the Patron because of the RP potential for it. (I'm going for a neutral-positive based Undead, not pure negative evil.), and the abilities are great for things outside of combat. No sleep, no eating, no breathing. Virtual immortality (to a point). Such a time and money saver. You know, actual Role-Playing. That thing some of you seem to forget with a munchkin wargamer attitude. *sigh*
I do admit, some things are lacklustre, especially the extra spells (raise undead should be on there), and not actually stopping aging, but overall, I'm loving exploring it. The patron is what you and the GM make of it. Which, is where you should discuss it all beforehand with them and make the most out of your choices and change what both of you agree on (if applicable). That's the beauty of RPGs. You'd know this is you've played a long time and played the many other RPG systems and genres out there, than simply D&D.
Sorry, digressing. The Undying Patron is great and I fell in love with it. Enjoying reading others takes on it. Some are good long-term thoughts, while others seem geared towards short-sighted thinking about fights and powers.
OT - I often find myself comparing 5E with 1E.
Do you do that as well?
Oh, I compare it to 1st, 2nd/AD&D, 3rd/3.5 all the time. (Just not 4th because...reasons.) Heck, in one of my games, we mix in older edition things to add more to the campaign.
But that's a different topic. Although again, the Undying may need a light tweak for better flavour and use, it's great for home games. If you only play that limited Adventure League thing, (which I don't) then I can understand why people would say it isn't any good for them. There's no RP or long-term usage in those wham-bam-thank you-ma'am, games. That's a shame that magnifies the rift between AL where plowing through fast with combat is king vs home games like say, how Critical Role is more about RP and talking, for example.
Sigh. I am also an old player from the 2nd edition era. Your making an assumption that commenters, like myself, are not giving this Patron a fair shake because we are short-sighted munchkin wargammers obsessed with “winning” 5e and unconcerned with RP. I don’t see why you come to that assumption just because many of us prefer the features of other Patrons (Fiend is my personal favorite). Role play is really fundamental to the Warlock and all patrons. I don’t like the Undying Patron but I also don’t like the Celestial Warlock (I think the Pact should always be a dark bargain...).
From what I experienced in this forum, posters are big fans of the warlock class and have a good working knowledge of all aspects from Roleplaying, to creating flavorful backstories and, yes, even optimizing. This is a very knowledgeable group of posters.
Just a friendly counter point from another “old” player.
Everything Ghastly Orphans said goes for me as well; I've been playing long enough to enjoy every edition of D&D, including the much-and-wrongly-maligned 4E. I would also point out that 5E borrowed a number of design features from 4E.
All the Warlock Pacts (except the Hexblade) have excellent RP potential. Most of them have useful in-game features as well. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have both for our characters.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
I used it for an evil character who had a Vampire patron, it was fun! I don't know about it mechanic wise, since I'm a pure rp-player, though.
A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.
I am going to be playing this archetype. Mechanically, it's meh... but with RP in mind, it's great. My character "Radovan 'Van' Gaultier II" is a waterdhavian noble who was always obsessed with learning about vampirism, one day he discovered that one of his ancestors from long ago was a vampire. Through browsing his fathers private library he also discovered that ancestor was still very much "alive". Locked away in a secret chamber beneath the family tomb. He found the chamber and met his vampiric great, great, great, great, great.... etc. uncle "Ivor Gaultier". He requested that Van aid him in finding a final resting place, far from the eyes and ears of his estranged family. In exchange, Ivor would grant him otherworldly powers, and eventually, once the task was complete, true immortality through vampirism.
I almost exclusively play Warlock and Undying Patron is my favourite archetype.
It's pretty trash though.
Mechanics matter. A lot. Shadow Sorcerer is like an undead caster, just more fun. Grave Domain gets the same cantrip and makes it ten times better. Way of the Long Death Monk laughs at our Defy Death feature.
Yet I still love the archetype. I love playing undead characters, and the Undying Patron is the best way for me to express myself.
So why do I say that mechanics matter then if I'm just here for the RP? They give the framework for a character. Most people will reflavour stuff to fit their character.
I have a Spell Sniper character who shoots Eldritch Blast bullets out of his Arcane Gun (Staff Arcane Focus). His Dark One's Blessing I reflavoured into Sadistic Glee, giving him temporary HP whenever he kills a hostile creature because it makes him pump adrenaline through his body.
Undying Patron doesn't offer much in the way of mechanics.
Defy Death is the best feature we get and really flavourful. Too bad it's once per long rest though, but it's probably more balanced this way.
Among the Dead is almost useless. Even if you're in an undead campaign, very often you're going to attack the enemy either way or wouldn't even be a target. When it comes into effect it feels good, but probably not because you think "My character used his strength to his advantage" and more likely because "I can't believe this ability is actually useful once."
Spare the Dying is a nice cantrip and a class like Warlock is happy about every free spell they get. That's the real feature we get at level 1.
It's just a punch in the face that Grave Clerics show how much better it could've been implemented. Sure, Spare the Dying gets better at level 6, when you get your own HP back upon casting it. Once per long rest.
Undying Nature is nice. It's mostly a ribbon but it's a very good ribbon. Not the slower aging part, no one cares about that. Being able to neglect sleep, food water and air is huge.
Indestructible Life is just.. you literally took the Second Wind from the Fighter class, a level 1 feature, and sold it to us as a level 14 feature. Really?
What really sells the Undying Warlock to me is the Spell List.
Blindness/Deafness is a solid debuff and getting Silence is also major.
Aura of Life and Death Ward makes us almost a real Necromancer in preventing our friends from dying.
On the same note, there are a lot of missed opportunities with the spell list. No Animate Dead ? Huge flavour fail. And I don't wanna hear any excuses about "unlimited spell slots" or whatever. Even if we have to pass on the Animate Dead, could we not at least get a Revivify or Raise Dead?
This seems a bit much for a 1st level ability. You can also use Spare the Undying on an NPC so this might create an incentive for a player to hire a bunch of weak NPC Fighters or whatever just to have a battery of heals. I would say once at 1st level, twice at 10th level, thrice at 18th level. And 4d8 for a healing Cantrip? That's basically a 3rd level spell slot of Cure Wounds.
I would say that this is both very OP in a Ravenloft-life setting and kind of anti-thematic. If your patron is an Undead power player of some kind, why would you want you destroying other undead creatures left and right? I feel like bolstering undead would make a lot more sense from the POV of theme.
This seems to be a more powerful version of Hurl Through Hell from the Fiend pact. Also kind of OP and not very flavorful considering no powerful undead has this type of ability. Something more similar to the Sickening Radiance spell would be more thematic or perhaps being able to inflict a level or two of exhaustion on your enemies if they fail a CON save would fit better.
I think the Undying Patron suffers from a couple things honestly.
One of those things I would argue is the way that a lot of people look at playing the Warlock in general. Things like Being obsessed with how they can maximize EB damage despite the fact that it's not necessarily the most damaging thing that a Warlock can do on a regular basis. As well as trouble seeing the utility in some things so they will discount certain pacts over others. Keep in mind I'm not saying that all players do this. But more than enough of them do. I've had long debates over this kind of stuff in many places and certain things like Hexblade have eased it a little but not as much.
Another problem is how little grasp on time moving inside the game that people can have playing these games. I've seen plenty of players young and old treat a campaign that technically took a decade or more of time more similar to "what I did on my Summer Vacation" Or "My Backpacking trip through Europe". And these weren't campaigns that had overly long gaps of downtime regularly like does happen in some games. it can be easy to not notice or forget. "Oh we've spent over a month down here underground already." "we've spent 3 days infiltrating these passages and this crypt." "we spent two weeks getting across the world to our new destination." For many human or aging equivilant races this means that they have likely spent a quarter to third of their life on that epic adventure that got them through to level 20 and made famous heroes that slayed some great threat quite easily. But it's just so overlookable much of the time.
Then when you combine those issues with the fact that some of their abilities just don't have as easily obvious and immediate uses as some of the others and it gets even more problematic. it's pretty easy to see value in talking in other peoples heads, disorienting or charming somebody in battle or Hurling an Opponent through Hell momentarily and them being scarred by the experience. it's not so easy to see the value in somewhat less astounding and slightly more lack luster abilities like attaching a limb instead of having to find some way to regrow it or find a replacement or go without since that doesn't come up often in their campaigns.
And an ability to have undead of many kinds just plain ignore you so that you can tactically pick the targets where you can help the most rather than having to deal with the peons that are coming from the back of the room near you to wreck your day and keep you from helping with the big bad guy to end the fight Seems Extra useless. specially if they aren't dealing with a lot of undead. Even though undead can be found at a lot of different levels of play and in a lot of varieties of environments. People get more focused on other things and often relegate their chance of needing to deal with undead to something that only happens in certain settings or at certain level brackets that they aren't in so they aren't a big worry. Which is something I think DM's should exploit from time to time myself honestly.
Now Keep in mind I'm not saying there aren't some issues with the Undying. I actually like them quite a bit. They definitely have an interesting flavor and they are something a good DM and player could potentially work with on a lot of levels.
But they aren't exactly all bad. Their spell list while it might not be much for causing damage. Has some real valuable tools provided to it.While spare the dying has sadly be eclipsed by the grave cleric. which wasn't even an inkling of a thing when the Undying came out there are other spells on it's list can still be quite strong and help to actually sway some dangerous encounters that are often overlooked. Not only that, but they have access to one of the nastier disease/curse spells in the game in Contagion. It can mess up a lot of big bad guys weeks if you can land it. Specially if your party has done things to it to blow legendary resistances it might have had.
I just made a character that has chosen this patron. Race is Simic Hybrid, but not set up as part of the Ravnica world. More like a lab experiment for that Magicians and "Healers". So she has the manta glide, and will eventually get the feature that gives +1 AC. She also has an arm replaced with a green dragonborn arm, and that appendage is the one that shoots the cantrip Poison Spray. Did Pact of the Tomb, with Secret Book invocation (don't recall exact name) so she can get Find Familiar. Trying to figure out the other rituals I would want. Probably Alarm?
Anyway I think she will be pretty fun to RP if I get the chance. I only have time to do one game a week.
I like the concepts a lot, but this is very overpowered.
For march of the inevitable, I assume it takes an action to regain a spell slot this way. I do love the idea for this ability though, anything that lets Warlock's regain spell slots in a way with a cost is good. I would limit it though to once per short rest. Also, it really should have a cap on the CR of the undead it can vaporize, or else you could one-shot a lich with it.
For Stare Into The Abyss, I am assuming this is a once per long rest ability, but even then dealing 14d12 damage is insane, especially without a save or spending a spell slot. And it goes up to 20d12 too.
I definitely think a good version of the undying patron would be defined by two things: being very hard to kill and being a more advanced spellcaster. I like that this version focuses on those aspects.
I actually love the idea of an Undying Patron, already had a concept of an young Aarakocra that has been exposed to other races and felt it was unfair that their lifespan was so short and made a pack with an Undying Patron to live longer.
The pack is, they must take 'Toll the dead' Cantrip but their version is every time someone gets tolled some spiritual energy gets sent to the Patron. or Maybe they must take Soul Cage at level 13 as their Mystic Arcanum (7th Level) and the patron gets 3 out of the 6 uses of the soul.
As for Changes, I would love to see level 6 be something like either
Sorcerer - Draconic Bloodline - elemental affinity but with any necrotic damage. or
Wizard - Evocation - Potent Cantrip
I only recently realise how bad the Undying warlock is when someone brought it up on reddit. Basically, its not bad because its weak, but more like you don't have a subclass if you aren't fighting undead, dealing with disease, or having you or your allies making death saves. There's so many bad design in this subclass, and i will show why.
Among the Dead - Basically useless against non-undead. So you don't have a subclass 99% of the time. Disease? Rare enough as it is, and paladins can just lay on hands it off anyway. Low level undead aren't the smartest guys, you can easily hide behind the meatshields of the party. High level undead usually have good Wisdom saves, so chances are they still can get their attack off. Also, they still can Fireball you. Trash ability.
Defy Death - The best feature of Undying, but its not saying much, because of the once per day limit. Dont know why they have to be so stingy with this, when the Fiend, Archfey, and GOO all have level 6 features that are short rest cool down. But this is an example of poor design. If your party play optimally, avoid taking damage and avoid making death saves, you are essentially punished by not having a feature. Basically, prevention is still better than cure.
Undying Nature - Seriously, this couldn't have come earlier? If at level 10 you are still having trouble with food and water, you are doing something wrong. Not having to sleep is nice, but not worth the wait. Xanathars have an invocation that does the same thing for Tome locks. The slowed aging is just useless.
Indestructible Life - A glorified Second Wind that comes too late. Also, i think abilities that allow you to regrow or reattach limbs are quite useless as there are no mechanics for that, so most DMs won't do that to your PC anyway.
So as you can see, at the start of a standard combat session, and probably for the first few rounds after that, A level 14 Undying gets absolutely nothing that they can use, if they are not up against very specific things. Their out of combat utility is next to none too, but once they are level 10, at least they make a good guard dog during the night. Their expanded spell list is nothing to great too. Curiously, they are missing resistance to necrotic damage, something that would be quite thematic for them.
All in all, a very badly designed subclass.
I like the undying, it is rich in roleplaying options.
as for power and/or usefulness of abilies; that completely depends on the DM,campaign,table. If your game is about rolling dice I.e. the "white room" combat in a controlled environment.... I guess undying fizzles. but if you work with your abilities in creative ways you can "activate" the cool/power factor. I.e. pact of the chain allows your familier to deliver spare the dying without you having to move into the fray. you could use a poisonous gas with undying nature to put enemies at a disadvantage in your vicinity. etc
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
DM: Strahd walks into the room, roll for intiative.
Me: I point at him. Roll a con save.
DM: What?
Me: Con save.
DM: Its a two.
Me: *Packing up my dice* Ah, god I love march of the inevitable.
*Legendary Resistance* He chooses to succeed.
It really just has a moderately useful ward, they can heal a little when someone is at 0, and they can heal themselves a little every once in awhile. Oh and aging isn't a problem. That's not much. At all. Other warlocks get to interact with others outside of them being near dead. The final power of the subclass is nearly nothing next to throwing someone through hell or having a free deathward. The only redeeming factor is that each ability does synergise with itself. Say you knock them to 0, they then stand up and put their hand back on. That's it. It's basically all flavor.
This is a bit of a cross post so bear with me. My Character for tomorrow is a Level 1 Warlock & Level 3 Rogue Assassin. I was looking at the undying just being I like killing people so my Patron is my contact for making a living, plus it makes grave robbing a little easier since undead are weaker against me.