-So the way the spell reads confuses me a little bit and me my DM were not able to really come to to a conclusion after googling around a bit.
"A protective magical force surrounds you, manifesting as a spectral frost that covers you and your gear. You gain 5 temporary hit points for the duration. If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points, the creature takes 5 cold damage
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, both the temporary hit points and the cold damage increase by 5 for each slot"
- So I had Armor of Agathys cast at 3rd level so I had the 15 temp hp and the DM rolled to hit with a melee attack against me and said it broke my AC, so it hit. So then I told the DM okay well the bad guy takes 15 cold damage then. He said okay the cold damage killed him. And then he said I took damage from the hit. And I said but how do I take damage if the bad guy is dead from my Armor of Agathys attack?
- I guess my question is, when does the Armor of Agathys damage occur to the creature attacking my character? Before or after my character takes damage from the attack that triggered the Armor of Agathys damage in the first place?
Apply the damage from the attacker to the target (your character). You have 15 temp hit points, so deplete these by the amount of damage done with the attack. Any remaining damage is applied to your character.
The armor of agathys causes the attacker to take cold damage (15 in this case) - this happens even if the attacker dealt more than 15 damage in their attack.
If the spell still has any temporary hit points remaining, it continues to function. If not, the spell ceases.
So you're saying that my character takes damage before the Armor of Agathys gives damage to the the creature that is attacking?
Because from the way the spell is worded -
~If a creature *hits* you with a melee attack while you have these hit points, the creature takes 5 cold damage~
It doesn't say when you take damage, then Armor of Agathys will cause damage. It says when you are hit. Like the same way the Shield spell is worded.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think I should have taken any damage from an attack by the creature because the the cold damage killed the creature on its attack roll before the damage would be applied.
I think you're over analyzing the use of the words hits/damages - the fifth edition of Dungeons & Dragons has been specifically written to use a more natural language style in the rules, rather than read like a technical manual. This means that if any spell/feature works differently to the standard rules, it will spell it out pretty clearly, rather than having to analyse what words are used in what context.
The armor of agathys spell does prevent damage (this is what the temporary hit points do) but it doesn't preemptively damage the attacker.
The shield spell is very different as it is cast as a reaction and specifically states that the AC bonus applies to the triggering attack.
If armor of agathys was intended to work the way you have stated, it would say something like, "If this cold damage kills the attacker, then you do not take damage from the attack"
You see that's where I agree that it is confusing. Because I've always read that "hit" and "damage" were 2 separate things. And have always been told that spells do exactly what they say they do. So reading it the way it's written is what got me to this conclusion. I managed to find this same question answered over at this other site. With a Jeremy Crawford Twitter link in there too.
The way I see it is that if an attack has hit you then the damage must follow regardless simply because the attack hit. The only exception are spells like Shield which specifically say they affect the triggering attack.
My thoughts are that even if you apply the AoA damage at the point where the attacker hit, they still hit you, so you still get to take the damage, even if the AoA damage killed the attacker.
Storm / Enmote are right. AoA is a 'you get hit you deal damage to the attacker' effect. - you may kill the attacker with the damage but the strike still hit you. Otherwise there would be a paradox: How can a dead opponent strike you, triggering the damage that killed them. If it killed them then they couldnt strike. If you werent struck then their was no retaliation. Time unravels and all temporal anomalies cease to exist.
There is a circumstance when you are hit, and take no damage from the attack when AoA will trigger: When you are hit and take no damage, which is almost impossible in 5th but say you have the spell primordial ward on you and are hit by a fire elemental, trigger your reaction to grant immunity to fire reducing the attack to 0, then AoA still deals damage. Or if you have heavy armor / heavy armor mastery feat and are hit by a non magical melee attack that does 3 or less damage AoA will still work.
AoA is a great spell but attempting a temporal paradox is foolish - you might open portals to second edition and have chronomancers after you,and they always win, even if they have to replay everything again, and again, and again.
It really helped clear it all up for me. Also I should have just looked in the PHB a little more closely for this answer.
"3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage."
Woah there! A lot about the warlock class is cheese related. Lets not be hasty! From 1/2ing all damage to having a permanent minion, Never sleeping, Unlimited range invisible drone reconnaissance and attacking with.. charisma? There is a pungent waft of parmesan / myconoid rolling off all of it. Cheese is fine until goes bad. But I do agree Wud, temporal paradox rules lawyering is bad cheese!
While there's rare cases where "when you're hit..." is there for timing purposes, like the Shield spell, those cases explicitly call out if they can affect the outcome of the attack and turn it into a miss or prevent the attack from damaging you.
In this case it's more about the intended outcome; even if you take 0 damage from the attack for whatever reason, the enemy's still going to be hurt by Armor of Agathys, because the condition is you getting hit, not you taking damage.
Doesn't matter. The spell requires a hit, and "hit" is a game term with a clearly defined meaning: it's the result of an attack roll that meets or exceeds the target's AC.
You can narrate misses however you like, but that won't change how the spell works.
Biggest problem I had with AoA was that I thought it was a one for one deal. So I got hit for 2hp they took 2 cold damage, it wasn't until I started looking a bit deeper that it didn't matter how much damage they did they still took the whole 5 damage that I enjoyed it a bit more. Pissed off a little bit though as I would've killed two guys in a previous encounter lol
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-So the way the spell reads confuses me a little bit and me my DM were not able to really come to to a conclusion after googling around a bit.
"A protective magical force surrounds you, manifesting as a spectral frost that covers you and your gear.
You gain 5 temporary hit points for the duration. If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points, the creature takes 5 cold damage
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, both the temporary hit points and the cold damage increase by 5 for each slot"
- So I had Armor of Agathys cast at 3rd level so I had the 15 temp hp and the DM rolled to hit with a melee attack against me and said it broke my AC, so it hit. So then I told the DM okay well the bad guy takes 15 cold damage then. He said okay the cold damage killed him. And then he said I took damage from the hit. And I said but how do I take damage if the bad guy is dead from my Armor of Agathys attack?
- I guess my question is, when does the Armor of Agathys damage occur to the creature attacking my character? Before or after my character takes damage from the attack that triggered the Armor of Agathys damage in the first place?
You resolve it in this order:
I hope that helps!
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So you're saying that my character takes damage before the Armor of Agathys gives damage to the the creature that is attacking?
Because from the way the spell is worded -
~If a creature *hits* you with a melee attack while you have these hit points, the creature takes 5 cold damage~
It doesn't say when you take damage, then Armor of Agathys will cause damage. It says when you are hit. Like the same way the Shield spell is worded.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think I should have taken any damage from an attack by the creature because the the cold damage killed the creature on its attack roll before the damage would be applied.
I think you're over analyzing the use of the words hits/damages - the fifth edition of Dungeons & Dragons has been specifically written to use a more natural language style in the rules, rather than read like a technical manual. This means that if any spell/feature works differently to the standard rules, it will spell it out pretty clearly, rather than having to analyse what words are used in what context.
The armor of agathys spell does prevent damage (this is what the temporary hit points do) but it doesn't preemptively damage the attacker.
The shield spell is very different as it is cast as a reaction and specifically states that the AC bonus applies to the triggering attack.
If armor of agathys was intended to work the way you have stated, it would say something like, "If this cold damage kills the attacker, then you do not take damage from the attack"
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"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
You see that's where I agree that it is confusing. Because I've always read that "hit" and "damage" were 2 separate things. And have always been told that spells do exactly what they say they do. So reading it the way it's written is what got me to this conclusion. I managed to find this same question answered over at this other site. With a Jeremy Crawford Twitter link in there too.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/106953/does-damage-from-armor-of-agathys-take-place-before-or-after-a-character-takes-d
The way I see it is that if an attack has hit you then the damage must follow regardless simply because the attack hit. The only exception are spells like Shield which specifically say they affect the triggering attack.
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I'm not one of the game designers myself, so I could be wrong. What I have said above and here is my own interpretation.
Generally speaking, if a feature/spell does something, it specifically states that it does it, as per my example above.
The Jeremy Crawford tweet is referencing mechanics for smites etc.
There's a more specific one here, though it's discussing a combination of effects;
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/725756364526473216
My thoughts are that even if you apply the AoA damage at the point where the attacker hit, they still hit you, so you still get to take the damage, even if the AoA damage killed the attacker.
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If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Storm / Enmote are right. AoA is a 'you get hit you deal damage to the attacker' effect. - you may kill the attacker with the damage but the strike still hit you. Otherwise there would be a paradox: How can a dead opponent strike you, triggering the damage that killed them. If it killed them then they couldnt strike. If you werent struck then their was no retaliation. Time unravels and all temporal anomalies cease to exist.
There is a circumstance when you are hit, and take no damage from the attack when AoA will trigger: When you are hit and take no damage, which is almost impossible in 5th but say you have the spell primordial ward on you and are hit by a fire elemental, trigger your reaction to grant immunity to fire reducing the attack to 0, then AoA still deals damage. Or if you have heavy armor / heavy armor mastery feat and are hit by a non magical melee attack that does 3 or less damage AoA will still work.
AoA is a great spell but attempting a temporal paradox is foolish - you might open portals to second edition and have chronomancers after you,and they always win, even if they have to replay everything again, and again, and again.
I found this. (this StackExchange site is loaded with D&D stuff!)
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/108959/what-happens-if-a-creature-is-killed-between-its-attack-and-damage-rolls
It really helped clear it all up for me. Also I should have just looked in the PHB a little more closely for this answer.
"3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage."
Thanks for the help guys!
Just don't try to be cheesy about it. It's pretty obvious what it means. 99% of the readers get it.
Woah there! A lot about the warlock class is cheese related. Lets not be hasty! From 1/2ing all damage to having a permanent minion, Never sleeping, Unlimited range invisible drone reconnaissance and attacking with.. charisma? There is a pungent waft of parmesan / myconoid rolling off all of it. Cheese is fine until goes bad. But I do agree Wud, temporal paradox rules lawyering is bad cheese!
Enjoy the game everyone.
While there's rare cases where "when you're hit..." is there for timing purposes, like the Shield spell, those cases explicitly call out if they can affect the outcome of the attack and turn it into a miss or prevent the attack from damaging you.
In this case it's more about the intended outcome; even if you take 0 damage from the attack for whatever reason, the enemy's still going to be hurt by Armor of Agathys, because the condition is you getting hit, not you taking damage.
Clarifying - Would melee misses proc AoA?
Nope - it activates on being hit:
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On a near miss, my DM narrates that the weapon skidded off or didn't penetrate our armor.... What about that? :)
Doesn't matter. The spell requires a hit, and "hit" is a game term with a clearly defined meaning: it's the result of an attack roll that meets or exceeds the target's AC.
You can narrate misses however you like, but that won't change how the spell works.
Yea, I know, I know.. After being answered I was just pulling legs
Aha Noxx, pulling legs is probably grappling related, and grapples wont trigger AoA either! ;)
Dammit. This is why I don't let you DM!
Biggest problem I had with AoA was that I thought it was a one for one deal. So I got hit for 2hp they took 2 cold damage, it wasn't until I started looking a bit deeper that it didn't matter how much damage they did they still took the whole 5 damage that I enjoyed it a bit more. Pissed off a little bit though as I would've killed two guys in a previous encounter lol
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