Looking through various Hexblade builds, I see many people stressing how important it is (almost necessary) to get both Devil's Sight and the Darkness spell.
I can see the obvious advantages of the combo. But these builds all seem to be ignoring the reality that most people play with teammates. Doesn't that make the combo somewhat circumstantial, especially early on? Isn't throwing a 15-foot-radius sphere of darkness onto the battlefield (one which normal darkvision can't even penetrate) going to frequently trip up nearby allies, and stop them from hitting some of your opponents? Or is there some way to mitigate this downside that I'm missing?
Unless they also have Devil's Sight, they're pretty screwed. There is an upside AND downside though, such as the BBEG getting grabbed by the Hexblade and pulled into a dark hell where they are getting thrashed while the rest of the party handles the trash mob or anything else they have in the room with them. Also, you can use it cleverly since the tooltip says "If the point you choose is on an object you are holding or one that isn’t being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it. Completely covering the source of the darkness with an opaque object, such as a bowl or a helm, blocks the darkness." Technically you can carry something as simple as a rock on you, cast Darkness on the rock, thrash the enemy for a while and then put the rock in your pocket to completely take the spell off until you need to pull it out and place it elsewhere (it has a ten minute duration so technically you can move it from area to area if you put it on something you can carry or toss around, since the magic emanates from the object itself that's affected by the spell, unless you aim at say, the floor. Clever players can really mess up an entire encounters flow by using Hex on an enemy after beating another one in darkness, and then Relentless Hex teleporting to that enemy after throwing a rock covered in a Darkness spell at them (or holding it in their offhand and teleporting) and basically controlling the field of battle for as long as you want seeing as most standard encounters never last the full 10 minutes.
I guess if you wanted you COULD use Shadows of Moil instead but its not really a call I'd make. The extra Necrotic damage is ok but the material component cost is a bit high and the duration is only one minute. Darkness is the better spell in my opinion, but if you wanted something that's a bit more "interesting" you could use Shadows of Moil as long as you feel like coughing up a gem worth around 150GP and an Undead eyeball every time you want to cast it. Darkness/ Devil's Sight is definitely meant to be an Ace-in-the-Hole strategy and I use it as such. You can build around holding onto that Darkness until you really need it, but man... it really can give you game-altering results if you lock down the BBEG and have advantage on eeeeeeverything while they have disadvantage on everything. Everything and their mother has darkvision now, but Devil's Sight giving you that edge in magical darkness will define your character in an eerie way that you can work into the RP aspect, like "Some dark power cries out in the darkness, and _________ always emerges alive while their foes are butchered in a macabre way"
Its a very good combo, BUT as is stated every bloody time this combo is mention; Its not partyfriendly. Its awesome if you build a party around that tactic, but its very situational.
I would never build a warlock around that feature without knowing the whole party can see through magical darkness or otherwise make full use of its positive sides.
Should be a stickied note on top of this section on the forum adressing this.
Thanks, I had completely forgotten that the darkness can be made to "eminate" from an object.
So yeah, covering the object or putting it in it's sheath or in your pocket temporarily disables the spell. And being able to repeatedly turn it off and on like that definitely helps control things. STILL seems pretty situational, but it does sound amazing if it works out (especially if you have means of keeping your target in the darkness,) so it might actually be worth keeping the spell in your back pocket, especially if you were planning to take Devil's Sight anyway.
Its a very good combo, BUT as is stated every bloody time this combo is mention; Its not partyfriendly. Its awesome if you build a party around that tactic, but its very situational.
Most of what I read either didn't address this, or glossed over it quickly, as if it wasn't a real issue (which seemed suspiciously short-sighted.) I'd really be interested in hearing from folks who've actually tried to use the combo with teammates who couldn't see through the spell, and how well/poorly it worked out for them.
I had a Fey patron Bladelock who used the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo, and then cast Blink. He cast Darkness on an object he was carrying, so every turn he had a 50/50 chance of going ethereal and taking the object with him. When this happened, the GM ruled that the darkness field went away until he returned, so it didn't affect his team mates on their turns. It was a random, 50/50 solution to the problem, but when it worked, they were completely unhindered.
I had a Fey patron Bladelock who used the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo, and then cast Blink. He cast Darkness on an object he was carrying, so every turn he had a 50/50 chance of going ethereal and taking the object with him. When this happened, the GM ruled that the darkness field went away until he returned, so it didn't affect his team mates on their turns. It was a random, 50/50 solution to the problem, but when it worked, they were completely unhindered.
That's actually pretty clever! Looks like I'm going to have a discussion with my DM....
One thing that bears mentioning, the enemies don't have to be in the darkness area, it works just as well if the warlock is the only one inside it. If enemies do enter it, allies can still attack them normally, since unseen attacker advantage negates the blind attack disadvantage, they just can't benefit from anything else that would give them advantage.
I had a Fey patron Bladelock who used the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo, and then cast Blink. He cast Darkness on an object he was carrying, so every turn he had a 50/50 chance of going ethereal and taking the object with him. When this happened, the GM ruled that the darkness field went away until he returned, so it didn't affect his team mates on their turns. It was a random, 50/50 solution to the problem, but when it worked, they were completely unhindered.
I'd never thought of that, its a clever ploy. I used the pebble trick a few times and then tried it on the tip of an arrow, but this seems like a far more interesting and substantial use of technique to deal with the problem in a creative manner.
It works great for ranged warlocks, as @Lunali elaborated. For melee, it might work. You'd need to move a bit away from your enemy after your turn is finished, so the enemy isn't in the spell's radius anymore. For this to work reliably this strategy would require a high mobility character though, like an Aarakocra.
I had a Fey patron Bladelock who used the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo, and then cast Blink. He cast Darkness on an object he was carrying, so every turn he had a 50/50 chance of going ethereal and taking the object with him. When this happened, the GM ruled that the darkness field went away until he returned, so it didn't affect his team mates on their turns. It was a random, 50/50 solution to the problem, but when it worked, they were completely unhindered.
I'd never thought of that, its a clever ploy. I used the pebble trick a few times and then tried it on the tip of an arrow, but this seems like a far more interesting and substantial use of technique to deal with the problem in a creative manner.
It's good for a Hexblade. For FeyLocks, it's good until 7th level, when Greater Invisibility eliminates the whole issue.
FeyLocks also get Faerie Fire at 1st level, which grants advantage to everyone without interfering with vision. They're my go-to pact, due to all their extra ways of gaining advantage.
Also, Plant Growth. Drop your Darkness on a group of foes trapped in an area where they have to move at 1/4 speed and watch them try to escape while you're hammering on them with Repelling/Agonizing Blast.
The builds that have it in them pretty much universally don't take any other party members into account and don't care if they are messing other party members up. A lot of those builds are based purely around "How can I be the most effective in combat and damn everybody else". That's also why you'll find a number of warlock builds that are obsessed with EB for everything because there is a perception to it in the minds of a number of people that there just isn't anything better in any way. Even to the point that suggesting a dip into Warlock purely to get EB is superior for other class builds.
If you are dealing with your party in mind you may need to get exceedingly creative(such as the blink spell mentioned above) or be willing to let it drop completely in order to synergize with your party better than you might on your own. There are also counters that they often do not take into account. Like Other warlocks that can see through it, Somebody canceling out the darkness spell with an appropriate level light spell or dispel magic, or senses like blindsight and tremorsense which completely ignore the darkness spell and all advantages/disadvantages that it gives. And then there are always the things that can take advantage of the darkness themselves after it is cast. Certain class features like the doomstalker or a certain invocation that Warlocks can get (that can always be granted as boons to NPC's from dark gods if the DM wishes). Or there used to be certain creatures that were actually stronger in the darkness in the light that could always be resurrected into 5e or made anew.
And there is always the chance that using the combo for yourself with disregard to your party may run counter to certain other party members or they just might get annoyed with it enough to counter it in their own ways.
Tell your party that when you cast darkness it will be centred on where you are and you will not move it on your first turn
Move to a point where at least one enemy is at least 15 feet away, ideally position yourself so any squishy members in your party are in range especially if the monsters are before your friend initiative. Cast darkness and eldritch blast (with advantage). Your friends know where you were so they can easily get out of the darkness to attack.
The worst case is you have advantage on your attacks and everything else is outside the darkness.
Your friends can also use the darkness for cover ducking out to attack and then going back in again. However there are advantages of being able to move the spell area (casting it on something you are holding) and friends that hide in the darkness may then have issues finding the way out (your DM might allow you so say something as you move so your friend know generally where you are so an move in the opposite direction).
Casting darkness against unintelligent creatures can also have excellent results, once when the groups was attacked by gargoyles I cast darkness and with the threat disappeared the DM ruled the Gargoyles went back from where they came.
In theory (just to be a complete dick to the DM) you could have a familiar lets call it an owl, carrying a rock with darkness cast on it flying in and out of the battle on your turn. Affects the bad guys, doesn't affect your team?
I played a couple of years ago with someone who played this combination when we were outside brilliantly. He moved around constantly and he stayed far enough away from the rest of us that he never caught us in the area of his darkness spell. He couldn’t do that in enclosed spaces, but in large open spaces he was incredibly effective. He sometimes caught opponents in the darkness where he could handle them one on one or keep them from doing anything other than escaping from the darkness that round.
How mobile you are able to be and how much space you have impacts this a great deal.
With RAW, your team still makes a straight roll, but I dont know any DMs that allow that for this tactic. However, there are ways to play around it. Darkness isn't that big. You could cast darkness on your blade and then sheath your sword at the end of your turn. You could move back from your enemy so that your team can see it, they don't get an AoO on you though. Cast darkness on a stone or ball bearing and at the end of your turn close your fist. Alternatively, you could cast darkness on yourself and just shoot eldritch blasts with advantage.
It took me a while to appreciate the darkness devil's sight combo until I started using it and playing with it more.
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Gash- Lvl14 Goblin Wizard - The High Court of the Aasimar Queen
Yeah, it's not quite as party unfriendly as it's made out to be, if the mob or your allies (or both) are in the darkness, any advantage to hit as an unseen attacker, is negated by disadvantage to hit as you're effectively blind. Directly targetted save spells of course can't be used at all as any I've checked require sight, that could be a benefit if you're up against magic users. Plus it's usually pretty easy to stay at the back, cast it on yourself, and it won't affect your allies at all. Or even on their turn you could be shouting to them to step forward 5 feet before they make their ranged attack (if they have advantage somehow) or save spell, then step 5 feet back into the darkness after spell.
Yeah, it's not quite as party unfriendly as it's made out to be, if the mob or your allies (or both) are in the darkness, any advantage to hit as an unseen attacker, is negated by disadvantage to hit as you're effectively blind. Directly targetted save spells of course can't be used at all as any I've checked require sight, that could be a benefit if you're up against magic users. Plus it's usually pretty easy to stay at the back, cast it on yourself, and it won't affect your allies at all. Or even on their turn you could be shouting to them to step forward 5 feet before they make their ranged attack (if they have advantage somehow) or save spell, then step 5 feet back into the darkness after spell.
This is all assuming that your enemies don't have ways to make it work for them. As I have mentioned there are several. It's also effectively a blinded condition and comes with all the problems that a blinded condition has such as automatically failing any kind of perception related necessities involving sight if you can't see through the darkness to each other. Which makes ranged attacks into and out of it basically pointless.
Yeah, it's not quite as party unfriendly as it's made out to be, if the mob or your allies (or both) are in the darkness, any advantage to hit as an unseen attacker, is negated by disadvantage to hit as you're effectively blind. Directly targetted save spells of course can't be used at all as any I've checked require sight, that could be a benefit if you're up against magic users. Plus it's usually pretty easy to stay at the back, cast it on yourself, and it won't affect your allies at all. Or even on their turn you could be shouting to them to step forward 5 feet before they make their ranged attack (if they have advantage somehow) or save spell, then step 5 feet back into the darkness after spell.
This is all assuming that your enemies don't have ways to make it work for them. As I have mentioned there are several. It's also effectively a blinded condition and comes with all the problems that a blinded condition has such as automatically failing any kind of perception related necessities involving sight if you can't see through the darkness to each other. Which makes ranged attacks into and out of it basically pointless.
To my knowledge, ranged attacks aren't affected by it? The advantage of being an unseen attacker and the disadvantage of being blinded cancel each other out. In fact, if the mob is prone, it's one wy of negating the disadvantage of attacking a prone mob.
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Looking through various Hexblade builds, I see many people stressing how important it is (almost necessary) to get both Devil's Sight and the Darkness spell.
I can see the obvious advantages of the combo. But these builds all seem to be ignoring the reality that most people play with teammates. Doesn't that make the combo somewhat circumstantial, especially early on? Isn't throwing a 15-foot-radius sphere of darkness onto the battlefield (one which normal darkvision can't even penetrate) going to frequently trip up nearby allies, and stop them from hitting some of your opponents? Or is there some way to mitigate this downside that I'm missing?
Whistler
Titus - V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3 - [Pic] - [Pic2] - [Traits] - in Shadowglass
Locke - V. Human Shadow Monk 3 / Undead Warlock 2 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in FOW - DMless West Marches
Flèche - V. Human Swords Bard 10 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in The Scarlet Mist
Sterling - V. Human Bard 1 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
Unless they also have Devil's Sight, they're pretty screwed. There is an upside AND downside though, such as the BBEG getting grabbed by the Hexblade and pulled into a dark hell where they are getting thrashed while the rest of the party handles the trash mob or anything else they have in the room with them. Also, you can use it cleverly since the tooltip says "If the point you choose is on an object you are holding or one that isn’t being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it. Completely covering the source of the darkness with an opaque object, such as a bowl or a helm, blocks the darkness." Technically you can carry something as simple as a rock on you, cast Darkness on the rock, thrash the enemy for a while and then put the rock in your pocket to completely take the spell off until you need to pull it out and place it elsewhere (it has a ten minute duration so technically you can move it from area to area if you put it on something you can carry or toss around, since the magic emanates from the object itself that's affected by the spell, unless you aim at say, the floor. Clever players can really mess up an entire encounters flow by using Hex on an enemy after beating another one in darkness, and then Relentless Hex teleporting to that enemy after throwing a rock covered in a Darkness spell at them (or holding it in their offhand and teleporting) and basically controlling the field of battle for as long as you want seeing as most standard encounters never last the full 10 minutes.
I guess if you wanted you COULD use Shadows of Moil instead but its not really a call I'd make. The extra Necrotic damage is ok but the material component cost is a bit high and the duration is only one minute. Darkness is the better spell in my opinion, but if you wanted something that's a bit more "interesting" you could use Shadows of Moil as long as you feel like coughing up a gem worth around 150GP and an Undead eyeball every time you want to cast it. Darkness/ Devil's Sight is definitely meant to be an Ace-in-the-Hole strategy and I use it as such. You can build around holding onto that Darkness until you really need it, but man... it really can give you game-altering results if you lock down the BBEG and have advantage on eeeeeeverything while they have disadvantage on everything. Everything and their mother has darkvision now, but Devil's Sight giving you that edge in magical darkness will define your character in an eerie way that you can work into the RP aspect, like "Some dark power cries out in the darkness, and _________ always emerges alive while their foes are butchered in a macabre way"
Its a very good combo, BUT as is stated every bloody time this combo is mention; Its not partyfriendly. Its awesome if you build a party around that tactic, but its very situational.
I would never build a warlock around that feature without knowing the whole party can see through magical darkness or otherwise make full use of its positive sides.
Should be a stickied note on top of this section on the forum adressing this.
Thanks, I had completely forgotten that the darkness can be made to "eminate" from an object.
So yeah, covering the object or putting it in it's sheath or in your pocket temporarily disables the spell. And being able to repeatedly turn it off and on like that definitely helps control things. STILL seems pretty situational, but it does sound amazing if it works out (especially if you have means of keeping your target in the darkness,) so it might actually be worth keeping the spell in your back pocket, especially if you were planning to take Devil's Sight anyway.
Whistler
Titus - V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3 - [Pic] - [Pic2] - [Traits] - in Shadowglass
Locke - V. Human Shadow Monk 3 / Undead Warlock 2 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in FOW - DMless West Marches
Flèche - V. Human Swords Bard 10 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in The Scarlet Mist
Sterling - V. Human Bard 1 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
Most of what I read either didn't address this, or glossed over it quickly, as if it wasn't a real issue (which seemed suspiciously short-sighted.) I'd really be interested in hearing from folks who've actually tried to use the combo with teammates who couldn't see through the spell, and how well/poorly it worked out for them.
Whistler
Titus - V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3 - [Pic] - [Pic2] - [Traits] - in Shadowglass
Locke - V. Human Shadow Monk 3 / Undead Warlock 2 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in FOW - DMless West Marches
Flèche - V. Human Swords Bard 10 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in The Scarlet Mist
Sterling - V. Human Bard 1 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
I had a Fey patron Bladelock who used the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo, and then cast Blink. He cast Darkness on an object he was carrying, so every turn he had a 50/50 chance of going ethereal and taking the object with him. When this happened, the GM ruled that the darkness field went away until he returned, so it didn't affect his team mates on their turns. It was a random, 50/50 solution to the problem, but when it worked, they were completely unhindered.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
That's actually pretty clever! Looks like I'm going to have a discussion with my DM....
Whistler
Titus - V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3 - [Pic] - [Pic2] - [Traits] - in Shadowglass
Locke - V. Human Shadow Monk 3 / Undead Warlock 2 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in FOW - DMless West Marches
Flèche - V. Human Swords Bard 10 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in The Scarlet Mist
Sterling - V. Human Bard 1 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
One thing that bears mentioning, the enemies don't have to be in the darkness area, it works just as well if the warlock is the only one inside it. If enemies do enter it, allies can still attack them normally, since unseen attacker advantage negates the blind attack disadvantage, they just can't benefit from anything else that would give them advantage.
I'd never thought of that, its a clever ploy. I used the pebble trick a few times and then tried it on the tip of an arrow, but this seems like a far more interesting and substantial use of technique to deal with the problem in a creative manner.
It works great for ranged warlocks, as @Lunali elaborated. For melee, it might work. You'd need to move a bit away from your enemy after your turn is finished, so the enemy isn't in the spell's radius anymore. For this to work reliably this strategy would require a high mobility character though, like an Aarakocra.
It's good for a Hexblade. For FeyLocks, it's good until 7th level, when Greater Invisibility eliminates the whole issue.
FeyLocks also get Faerie Fire at 1st level, which grants advantage to everyone without interfering with vision. They're my go-to pact, due to all their extra ways of gaining advantage.
Also, Plant Growth. Drop your Darkness on a group of foes trapped in an area where they have to move at 1/4 speed and watch them try to escape while you're hammering on them with Repelling/Agonizing Blast.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
The builds that have it in them pretty much universally don't take any other party members into account and don't care if they are messing other party members up. A lot of those builds are based purely around "How can I be the most effective in combat and damn everybody else". That's also why you'll find a number of warlock builds that are obsessed with EB for everything because there is a perception to it in the minds of a number of people that there just isn't anything better in any way. Even to the point that suggesting a dip into Warlock purely to get EB is superior for other class builds.
If you are dealing with your party in mind you may need to get exceedingly creative(such as the blink spell mentioned above) or be willing to let it drop completely in order to synergize with your party better than you might on your own. There are also counters that they often do not take into account. Like Other warlocks that can see through it, Somebody canceling out the darkness spell with an appropriate level light spell or dispel magic, or senses like blindsight and tremorsense which completely ignore the darkness spell and all advantages/disadvantages that it gives. And then there are always the things that can take advantage of the darkness themselves after it is cast. Certain class features like the doomstalker or a certain invocation that Warlocks can get (that can always be granted as boons to NPC's from dark gods if the DM wishes). Or there used to be certain creatures that were actually stronger in the darkness in the light that could always be resurrected into 5e or made anew.
And there is always the chance that using the combo for yourself with disregard to your party may run counter to certain other party members or they just might get annoyed with it enough to counter it in their own ways.
For a ranged warlock it can work well.
Tell your party that when you cast darkness it will be centred on where you are and you will not move it on your first turn
Move to a point where at least one enemy is at least 15 feet away, ideally position yourself so any squishy members in your party are in range especially if the monsters are before your friend initiative. Cast darkness and eldritch blast (with advantage). Your friends know where you were so they can easily get out of the darkness to attack.
The worst case is you have advantage on your attacks and everything else is outside the darkness.
Your friends can also use the darkness for cover ducking out to attack and then going back in again. However there are advantages of being able to move the spell area (casting it on something you are holding) and friends that hide in the darkness may then have issues finding the way out (your DM might allow you so say something as you move so your friend know generally where you are so an move in the opposite direction).
Casting darkness against unintelligent creatures can also have excellent results, once when the groups was attacked by gargoyles I cast darkness and with the threat disappeared the DM ruled the Gargoyles went back from where they came.
In theory (just to be a complete dick to the DM) you could have a familiar lets call it an owl, carrying a rock with darkness cast on it flying in and out of the battle on your turn. Affects the bad guys, doesn't affect your team?
From Within Chaos Comes Order!
I played a couple of years ago with someone who played this combination when we were outside brilliantly. He moved around constantly and he stayed far enough away from the rest of us that he never caught us in the area of his darkness spell. He couldn’t do that in enclosed spaces, but in large open spaces he was incredibly effective. He sometimes caught opponents in the darkness where he could handle them one on one or keep them from doing anything other than escaping from the darkness that round.
How mobile you are able to be and how much space you have impacts this a great deal.
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With RAW, your team still makes a straight roll, but I dont know any DMs that allow that for this tactic. However, there are ways to play around it. Darkness isn't that big. You could cast darkness on your blade and then sheath your sword at the end of your turn. You could move back from your enemy so that your team can see it, they don't get an AoO on you though. Cast darkness on a stone or ball bearing and at the end of your turn close your fist. Alternatively, you could cast darkness on yourself and just shoot eldritch blasts with advantage.
It took me a while to appreciate the darkness devil's sight combo until I started using it and playing with it more.
Gash - Lvl14 Goblin Wizard - The High Court of the Aasimar Queen
Yeah, it's not quite as party unfriendly as it's made out to be, if the mob or your allies (or both) are in the darkness, any advantage to hit as an unseen attacker, is negated by disadvantage to hit as you're effectively blind. Directly targetted save spells of course can't be used at all as any I've checked require sight, that could be a benefit if you're up against magic users. Plus it's usually pretty easy to stay at the back, cast it on yourself, and it won't affect your allies at all. Or even on their turn you could be shouting to them to step forward 5 feet before they make their ranged attack (if they have advantage somehow) or save spell, then step 5 feet back into the darkness after spell.
This is all assuming that your enemies don't have ways to make it work for them. As I have mentioned there are several. It's also effectively a blinded condition and comes with all the problems that a blinded condition has such as automatically failing any kind of perception related necessities involving sight if you can't see through the darkness to each other. Which makes ranged attacks into and out of it basically pointless.
To my knowledge, ranged attacks aren't affected by it? The advantage of being an unseen attacker and the disadvantage of being blinded cancel each other out. In fact, if the mob is prone, it's one wy of negating the disadvantage of attacking a prone mob.