The Variant Class Features are entirely modular. You can pick which features are available to players. You don't have to include spell versatility if you don't want. I don't have an issue with it because wizards still have access to a huge list of spells. The classes that get spell versatility can only swap one spell they know with another spell that isn't known that is of the same spell level. Bards, sorcerers, and warlocks have a tight selection of known spells anyway so to swap out a spell on a long rest means having to give up a spell that will be missed. Like you have one fourth level spell known and its dimension door and you want to pick banishment because of the fight later that day. Its hard to say which spell would be more useful. A wizard could have both spells in their spellbook and thus they can prepare both spells instead of having to give one up. Also Bards, sorcerers, and warlocks have to waste a spell known on ritual spells like detect magic even if they will only ever cast it as a ritual. Wizards just have to have the ritual spell in their spell book. Also Augury and Divination are both ritual spells meaning you are gaining versatility by picking them up even if they are never prepared.
You are talking about the wizard's spell repertoire as if it had access to every possible list. You have to think that they really only have access to two new spells per level and spells that are lucky enough to be able to write in the book.
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"Esta perfecta melodía que acompasa y guía mi movimiento es la voz de mi compañera Aegnor"
Gowther Irerath, El'Tael de los Fragmentos Extraordinarios.
I'm probably spoiled on my wizard because I currently have a teleportation circle to a capital city where we complete quests for a wizard to help his research. He usually helps me by providing scrolls. The way you responded makes it seems like spell scrolls are ultra rare and impossible to ever come across.
I mean if a DM sees a pc wizard they should be dropping scrolls or spell books as a reward. Maybe even have some way for you to acquire spell scrolls through trade or NPC connections. Unless your DM is stingy with magic. I'm not trying to argue about whether this power creeps the wizard class, but my post was too A) State that the variant class features are optional and B) What my opinion on the topic is and why.
I didn't mean you exclusively. In general, people visualize a wizard's complete list of spells as accessible in each long rest and that is far from reality. The spell book does not mean the total sum of all possible spells. And this is accentuated at high levels, where spells are something exceptional.
I didn't mean you exclusively. In general, people visualize a wizard's complete list of spells as accessible in each long rest and that is far from reality. The spell book does not mean the total sum of all possible spells. And this is accentuated at high levels, where spells are something exceptional.
Well, that is true. And that gives less versatility to the wizard, than, say, a cleric, or a druid. Or a sorcerer with a month of downtime. A wizard might be able to prepare as many of the 4 level 5 spells that he knows (2 levels of 2 spells per level), but that sorcerer with a few days of down time can change out his 2-4 5th level spells (2 levels gaining 5th level slots with 2 opportunities to change known spell levels) to any others on his class list. It seems to me (of course this is opinion) that being able to access your entire spell list for a limited number of 5th level spells is more powerful than being able to choose to take 0-4 of only 4 possibilities.
What seems to be a common misunderstanding here is the list. Let's use a bad case scenario. A sorcerer has 15 spells known at level 20, wizards if unable to augment with scrolls and or spellbooks, 44 spells. Wizard obviously wins out by a wide margin. However, under this UA, the sorcerer can change one spell out every long rest from the entire sorcerer spell list, which contains at least 188 spells according to this. So, a sorcerer at the end of a long rest has a very limited preparation mechanic with access to 180+, the wizard a full preparation mechanic with access to 44. Another thought. A sorcerer under the current rules takes chromatic orb but decides that in the intrigue game they are playing in, charm person would be much better, so at level up the spells are swapped. New rules, just a long rest. I love the sound of that! But look at wizard. They take silent image thinking it to have many possible uses, which it only does with creativity, the right environment, and a willing DM. So under current rules, that spell is destined to just be shuffled to the back of the book and never prepared if there are no opportunities to ever use it and it was a waste of a selection. New rules, same problem. If a sorcerer picks a spell and ends up never using it, they can at least change it with a level up, while wizards are stuck with their mistakes. This all assumes no spell scrolls, spellbooks, or gold to scribe new spells, of course. And the fantastic ritual casting mechanic that wizards get should be remembered. But here's another problem. What if the spellbook is lost or destroyed? RAW, if you have 20 INT and all 25 spells prepared, your options narrow even further from 44 spells to choose from when preparing, to 25 spells when preparing, which you have to spend time and gold on to replace. While sorcerer still has access to all 180+ with a good night sleep! I personally love the mechanics presented in the UA and they're something I do hope to see implemented somehow, but it does make wizard the only class that doesn't have access to their full class spell list on demand. I'm no expert and do not claim to have a solution, I just want to point out what I see to help those that might. I feel this is the only real argument to be had on this topic, but I don't know for sure. I feel that I may have left some things out, so an update is possible. Let me know what you think!
I would make the counter argument that wizards have a lot more variety in their spells. Also, if we are assuming there is a situation with 1 month of downtime, let us also assume, because we are working on assumptions here, that the wizard has access to learn new spells. In 15 days (enough for the sorc to switch their spells with same level spells), assuming that the wizard spends 16 hours a day copying, and 8 hours long resting, not counting subclasses, the wizard can copy: 120 1st level spells (they have 39 1st level on their spell list), 60 2nd level spells, 40 3rd level spells, 30 4th level spells, 24 5th level spells, 20 6th level spells, 17.1428571429 7th level spells, 15 8th level spells, or 13.333333333 9th level spells (assuming they are all from the same level). Yes it costs gold, but quite honestly, the versatility of the wizard still FAR outshines that of the sorcerer here.
No doubt, even just looking at the link in my first comment shows that with the 300+ spells for wizards and 180+ for sorcerers. Assumptions can be made either way, one universe where the wizard never has more than 25 spells because their spellbook is regularly destroyed and can't find so much as a cantrip scroll, another universe entirely where the wizard has infinite wealth and time and can pop down to the corner store and pick up a dozen wish scrolls. If you're a sorcerer that takes fireball but regrets that as you travel to Avernus or the Plane of Fire, you can change it at level up. Wizard in the same situation is just screwed, unless they are given plenty of time and resources, having their effective spell list go down from 44 to 43. My main point is that RAW makes a wizard's admittedly vast spell list extremely narrow without a generous DM, and wizards don't have any kind of mechanic for messing up. I don't really think it would lead to widespread problems, and admittedly we could probobly find people complaining about these sorts of things long before this UA came out. I'm about to start a campaign in which I play a wizard, so I definitely don't hate them. And I also think the UA presents a lot of fun options I want to try. Very valid point though.
In addition, theoretically, the level of spell rarity increases each level. So a wizard should not be as easy to include spells from level 4 or 5. And yet, the sorcerer/others a little dream can change from the spell "wish" to "foresight".
With this I don't want to say that "spell versatility" seems bad to me, but it would have been a good idea to include that feature to classes like the wizard. If the reason is to give the possibility of correcting errors associated with the bad choice of spells, all casters can make mistakes in this regard.
I do not mind spell versatility conceptually (if it was only used to remove "noob trap" spells), but i feel like it is a bit unfair to wizard. Tbh I don't mind it on Bard (as long as it does not go with magical secrets), having a bunch of variety of spells is kinda their thing, and it does not feel that bad (wizards would still have more spells prepared than a bard, and the bard spell list is often similar spells in specific situations, not the best spells for these situations (outside of social situations, which they excel at), so a bit of variety is not that bad. On warlock, it makes thematic sense, but I would rather they stick to level there (there are not that many warlock spells, but they get some good unique stuff for a lot of situations). With Sorcerer, however, they have a cherrypicked "iconic" wizard spell list, and it would feel a bit unfair to the wizard. I would fix this by giving all sorcerers from here on out extra known spells based on their subclass (which they always should have had smh).
Damn straight it’s a tragedy that storm sorcerers can’t have call lightning! You bring up a lot of good points, I think the one mechanic I would introduce to make everything a bit more even is spell research for wizards. Technically could do it if the DM approves but there isn’t any current RAW way to get spells outside of leveling, scrolls, and spellbooks. I would keep all the versatility for the other classes, and make sure wizards could definitely get more, if they spend x amount of time and resources. More than just copying a spell though.
(call lightning is overpowered on sorcerers). Personally, I would rather wizards just be able to LEARN the spell, expending twice the gold and time, not needing a spellbook if one is not available.
If I’m understanding you correctly then we agree. Wizards should have a mechanic, perhaps expending twice the gold and time, to learn spells without needing to find something like a scroll. If you mean the other way I’m reading this, that is to say the wizard itself shouldn’t need a spellbook at all or to put their spells into, then we disagree but I think we agree?
I think that the wizard is absolutely fine, hell, this update could just make the wizard better. Have a sorcerer proficient with Arcana switch out a spell, copy it into a scroll, and have the wizard copy it down (almost every sorcerer spell is a wizard spell too), and then the wizard has it permanently.
That’s great for the parties that have both a sorcerer and a wizard. Really any spellcaster that shares any spells with the wizard. This could certainly be a solution to the problem. It’s not ideal or perfect or pretty, but I’m not any of those things either so I’m on board.
Considering the great variety in the background behind the nature of the magic of the different classes, it is a bit forced to hold that a wizard can copy/learn from other classes; although, the characteristic "spell versatility" is as well. That said, I think simplicity is the key. It is totally feasible for a wizard in long rest to be able to rethink his magical formulas and change one spell from his book for another of the same level. After all, the background behind the "spell versatility" for the other classes has the same credibility from my point of view.
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"Esta perfecta melodía que acompasa y guía mi movimiento es la voz de mi compañera Aegnor"
Gowther Irerath, El'Tael de los Fragmentos Extraordinarios.
No, no no no no no no no no no. NO. Wizards should not get spell versatility (personally I don't see a lore reasons for sorcerers, but that is not really relevant). Like, it is balanced on sorcerers. IT IS IN NO WAY BALANCED ON WIZARDS. The wizard spellbook is already better than spell versatility as a feature for changing spells, and you get a TON more known, as well as more if you interact with one of the most common magic items in the game, or fight enemy spellcasters, or just go to an area that has a library. A wizard who can just CHANGE a spell in their book at the end of a rest has exponentiallymore versatility than a sorcerer with spell versatility of the same level would have.
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Wizards also can change the level of prepared spells, sorcs with versatility cannot.
The Variant Class Features are entirely modular. You can pick which features are available to players. You don't have to include spell versatility if you don't want. I don't have an issue with it because wizards still have access to a huge list of spells. The classes that get spell versatility can only swap one spell they know with another spell that isn't known that is of the same spell level. Bards, sorcerers, and warlocks have a tight selection of known spells anyway so to swap out a spell on a long rest means having to give up a spell that will be missed. Like you have one fourth level spell known and its dimension door and you want to pick banishment because of the fight later that day. Its hard to say which spell would be more useful. A wizard could have both spells in their spellbook and thus they can prepare both spells instead of having to give one up. Also Bards, sorcerers, and warlocks have to waste a spell known on ritual spells like detect magic even if they will only ever cast it as a ritual. Wizards just have to have the ritual spell in their spell book. Also Augury and Divination are both ritual spells meaning you are gaining versatility by picking them up even if they are never prepared.
Your secret is safe with my indifference - Percy
You are talking about the wizard's spell repertoire as if it had access to every possible list. You have to think that they really only have access to two new spells per level and spells that are lucky enough to be able to write in the book.
"Esta perfecta melodía que acompasa y guía mi movimiento es la voz de mi compañera Aegnor"
Gowther Irerath, El'Tael de los Fragmentos Extraordinarios.
I'm probably spoiled on my wizard because I currently have a teleportation circle to a capital city where we complete quests for a wizard to help his research. He usually helps me by providing scrolls. The way you responded makes it seems like spell scrolls are ultra rare and impossible to ever come across.
I mean if a DM sees a pc wizard they should be dropping scrolls or spell books as a reward. Maybe even have some way for you to acquire spell scrolls through trade or NPC connections. Unless your DM is stingy with magic. I'm not trying to argue about whether this power creeps the wizard class, but my post was too A) State that the variant class features are optional and B) What my opinion on the topic is and why.
Your secret is safe with my indifference - Percy
I didn't mean you exclusively. In general, people visualize a wizard's complete list of spells as accessible in each long rest and that is far from reality. The spell book does not mean the total sum of all possible spells. And this is accentuated at high levels, where spells are something exceptional.
"Esta perfecta melodía que acompasa y guía mi movimiento es la voz de mi compañera Aegnor"
Gowther Irerath, El'Tael de los Fragmentos Extraordinarios.
Well, that is true. And that gives less versatility to the wizard, than, say, a cleric, or a druid. Or a sorcerer with a month of downtime. A wizard might be able to prepare as many of the 4 level 5 spells that he knows (2 levels of 2 spells per level), but that sorcerer with a few days of down time can change out his 2-4 5th level spells (2 levels gaining 5th level slots with 2 opportunities to change known spell levels) to any others on his class list. It seems to me (of course this is opinion) that being able to access your entire spell list for a limited number of 5th level spells is more powerful than being able to choose to take 0-4 of only 4 possibilities.
What seems to be a common misunderstanding here is the list. Let's use a bad case scenario. A sorcerer has 15 spells known at level 20, wizards if unable to augment with scrolls and or spellbooks, 44 spells. Wizard obviously wins out by a wide margin. However, under this UA, the sorcerer can change one spell out every long rest from the entire sorcerer spell list, which contains at least 188 spells according to this. So, a sorcerer at the end of a long rest has a very limited preparation mechanic with access to 180+, the wizard a full preparation mechanic with access to 44. Another thought. A sorcerer under the current rules takes chromatic orb but decides that in the intrigue game they are playing in, charm person would be much better, so at level up the spells are swapped. New rules, just a long rest. I love the sound of that! But look at wizard. They take silent image thinking it to have many possible uses, which it only does with creativity, the right environment, and a willing DM. So under current rules, that spell is destined to just be shuffled to the back of the book and never prepared if there are no opportunities to ever use it and it was a waste of a selection. New rules, same problem. If a sorcerer picks a spell and ends up never using it, they can at least change it with a level up, while wizards are stuck with their mistakes. This all assumes no spell scrolls, spellbooks, or gold to scribe new spells, of course. And the fantastic ritual casting mechanic that wizards get should be remembered. But here's another problem. What if the spellbook is lost or destroyed? RAW, if you have 20 INT and all 25 spells prepared, your options narrow even further from 44 spells to choose from when preparing, to 25 spells when preparing, which you have to spend time and gold on to replace. While sorcerer still has access to all 180+ with a good night sleep! I personally love the mechanics presented in the UA and they're something I do hope to see implemented somehow, but it does make wizard the only class that doesn't have access to their full class spell list on demand. I'm no expert and do not claim to have a solution, I just want to point out what I see to help those that might. I feel this is the only real argument to be had on this topic, but I don't know for sure. I feel that I may have left some things out, so an update is possible. Let me know what you think!
I like the way you explained it. I don't think I could have argued it better. :)
"Esta perfecta melodía que acompasa y guía mi movimiento es la voz de mi compañera Aegnor"
Gowther Irerath, El'Tael de los Fragmentos Extraordinarios.
Thanks! You were a big part of it I noticed you sayin the same thing just in less words
I would make the counter argument that wizards have a lot more variety in their spells. Also, if we are assuming there is a situation with 1 month of downtime, let us also assume, because we are working on assumptions here, that the wizard has access to learn new spells. In 15 days (enough for the sorc to switch their spells with same level spells), assuming that the wizard spends 16 hours a day copying, and 8 hours long resting, not counting subclasses, the wizard can copy: 120 1st level spells (they have 39 1st level on their spell list), 60 2nd level spells, 40 3rd level spells, 30 4th level spells, 24 5th level spells, 20 6th level spells, 17.1428571429 7th level spells, 15 8th level spells, or 13.333333333 9th level spells (assuming they are all from the same level). Yes it costs gold, but quite honestly, the versatility of the wizard still FAR outshines that of the sorcerer here.
No doubt, even just looking at the link in my first comment shows that with the 300+ spells for wizards and 180+ for sorcerers. Assumptions can be made either way, one universe where the wizard never has more than 25 spells because their spellbook is regularly destroyed and can't find so much as a cantrip scroll, another universe entirely where the wizard has infinite wealth and time and can pop down to the corner store and pick up a dozen wish scrolls. If you're a sorcerer that takes fireball but regrets that as you travel to Avernus or the Plane of Fire, you can change it at level up. Wizard in the same situation is just screwed, unless they are given plenty of time and resources, having their effective spell list go down from 44 to 43. My main point is that RAW makes a wizard's admittedly vast spell list extremely narrow without a generous DM, and wizards don't have any kind of mechanic for messing up. I don't really think it would lead to widespread problems, and admittedly we could probobly find people complaining about these sorts of things long before this UA came out. I'm about to start a campaign in which I play a wizard, so I definitely don't hate them. And I also think the UA presents a lot of fun options I want to try. Very valid point though.
In addition, theoretically, the level of spell rarity increases each level. So a wizard should not be as easy to include spells from level 4 or 5. And yet, the sorcerer/others a little dream can change from the spell "wish" to "foresight".
With this I don't want to say that "spell versatility" seems bad to me, but it would have been a good idea to include that feature to classes like the wizard. If the reason is to give the possibility of correcting errors associated with the bad choice of spells, all casters can make mistakes in this regard.
"Esta perfecta melodía que acompasa y guía mi movimiento es la voz de mi compañera Aegnor"
Gowther Irerath, El'Tael de los Fragmentos Extraordinarios.
I do not mind spell versatility conceptually (if it was only used to remove "noob trap" spells), but i feel like it is a bit unfair to wizard. Tbh I don't mind it on Bard (as long as it does not go with magical secrets), having a bunch of variety of spells is kinda their thing, and it does not feel that bad (wizards would still have more spells prepared than a bard, and the bard spell list is often similar spells in specific situations, not the best spells for these situations (outside of social situations, which they excel at), so a bit of variety is not that bad. On warlock, it makes thematic sense, but I would rather they stick to level there (there are not that many warlock spells, but they get some good unique stuff for a lot of situations). With Sorcerer, however, they have a cherrypicked "iconic" wizard spell list, and it would feel a bit unfair to the wizard. I would fix this by giving all sorcerers from here on out extra known spells based on their subclass (which they always should have had smh).
Damn straight it’s a tragedy that storm sorcerers can’t have call lightning! You bring up a lot of good points, I think the one mechanic I would introduce to make everything a bit more even is spell research for wizards. Technically could do it if the DM approves but there isn’t any current RAW way to get spells outside of leveling, scrolls, and spellbooks. I would keep all the versatility for the other classes, and make sure wizards could definitely get more, if they spend x amount of time and resources. More than just copying a spell though.
(call lightning is overpowered on sorcerers). Personally, I would rather wizards just be able to LEARN the spell, expending twice the gold and time, not needing a spellbook if one is not available.
If I’m understanding you correctly then we agree. Wizards should have a mechanic, perhaps expending twice the gold and time, to learn spells without needing to find something like a scroll. If you mean the other way I’m reading this, that is to say the wizard itself shouldn’t need a spellbook at all or to put their spells into, then we disagree but I think we agree?
I think that the wizard is absolutely fine, hell, this update could just make the wizard better. Have a sorcerer proficient with Arcana switch out a spell, copy it into a scroll, and have the wizard copy it down (almost every sorcerer spell is a wizard spell too), and then the wizard has it permanently.
That’s great for the parties that have both a sorcerer and a wizard. Really any spellcaster that shares any spells with the wizard. This could certainly be a solution to the problem. It’s not ideal or perfect or pretty, but I’m not any of those things either so I’m on board.
Hi!
Considering the great variety in the background behind the nature of the magic of the different classes, it is a bit forced to hold that a wizard can copy/learn from other classes; although, the characteristic "spell versatility" is as well. That said, I think simplicity is the key. It is totally feasible for a wizard in long rest to be able to rethink his magical formulas and change one spell from his book for another of the same level. After all, the background behind the "spell versatility" for the other classes has the same credibility from my point of view.
"Esta perfecta melodía que acompasa y guía mi movimiento es la voz de mi compañera Aegnor"
Gowther Irerath, El'Tael de los Fragmentos Extraordinarios.
No, no no no no no no no no no. NO. Wizards should not get spell versatility (personally I don't see a lore reasons for sorcerers, but that is not really relevant). Like, it is balanced on sorcerers. IT IS IN NO WAY BALANCED ON WIZARDS. The wizard spellbook is already better than spell versatility as a feature for changing spells, and you get a TON more known, as well as more if you interact with one of the most common magic items in the game, or fight enemy spellcasters, or just go to an area that has a library. A wizard who can just CHANGE a spell in their book at the end of a rest has exponentially more versatility than a sorcerer with spell versatility of the same level would have.