Why not just tie spell versatility to half the gold value of copying a spell into a spell book. I say half because the other classes are giving up a spell while the wizard is just gaining a new one.
Why not just tie spell versatility to half the gold value of copying a spell into a spell book. I say half because the other classes are giving up a spell while the wizard is just gaining a new one.
The gold cost represents the Wizard actually copying the spell into the book. No other Class has a spellbook, so there is no logical reason for that expense.
Ok, so what if spell versatility was a ceremony that let you change 1 spell known per day to a different spell. And the cost of the ceremony's components was based on the level of the spell you were trying to change, and that cost was 1/2 the cost it takes to copy a spell into the wizard's spell book.
I just want to try and balance spell versatility to copying a spell into a wizard's spell book. Sure you can wait til you level to change it but if you absolutely need a different spell you shouldn't get it for free. This is only an issue in league and rule strict DM home game, in any home games I've played the DM would just let a sorceress change a "useless" spell.
Edit: Wizard - For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. Sorceress - The ceremony costs 25 gp per spell level and takes 1 hour and requires a long rest.
If there must be a cost half seem a bit high as the wizard (who if the correct subclass gets a discount in both time and cost) is getting permanent access whenever after scribing the spell as opposed to a swap out that (I am guess would still have the same level only restriction).
If there must be a cost half seem a bit high as the wizard (who if the correct subclass gets a discount in both time and cost) is getting permanent access whenever after scribing the spell as opposed to a swap out that (I am guess would still have the same level only restriction).
... Since you can repeat spell versatility (and therefore swap back and forth) you are effectively gaining permanent access...
... Since you can repeat spell versatility (and therefore swap back and forth) you are effectively gaining permanent access...
Sure, but the sorcerer spell list is still extremely limited on utility spells. Literally the only time this would be a big deal for a sorcerer player is if they somehow knew exactly what the next adventure is going to require spell-wise and they also have enough advance notice that they swap out their spells during downtime days. That's a lot of ifs, and I'd argue a competing wizard player is still in a better position in that scenario just because the wizard spell list is so much more versatile that even when limited to just the spells they've learned while leveling, the wizard's more likely to have an ace up their sleeve.
Possibly, but the wizard has a limited number of preparations per day. Putting a spell into my book is fine and all, but I only get to USE it if I prepare it (excluding rituals). That means if I gain permanent spellbook access to a spell, I still need a long rest to swap it for a prepared spell. Same as versatility.
I think you are making a different argument than I am.
... Since you can repeat spell versatility (and therefore swap back and forth) you are effectively gaining permanent access...
Sure, but the sorcerer spell list is still extremely limited on utility spells. Literally the only time this would be a big deal for a sorcerer player is if they somehow knew exactly what the next adventure is going to require spell-wise and they also have enough advance notice that they swap out their spells during downtime days. That's a lot of ifs, and I'd argue a competing wizard player is still in a better position in that scenario just because the wizard spell list is so much more versatile that even when limited to just the spells they've learned while leveling, the wizard's more likely to have an ace up their sleeve.
In each thread I've seen (across multiple forums) where a gold piece cost gets brought up it seems that it is intended for every change using SV, even going back to spell previously known so I would not expect a full price in comparison to permanent access via spellbook.
In each thread I've seen (across multiple forums) where a gold piece cost gets brought up it seems that it is intended for every change using SV, even going back to spell previously known so I would not expect a full price in comparison to permanent access via spellbook.
I agree but some price should be paid. The question now is how much.
For Bard pretty sure RAW magical secret spells are considered to be a part of your spell list... yup
“By 10th level, you have plundered magical knowledge from a wide spectrum of disciplines. Choose two spells from any class, including this one. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip. The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table. You learn two additional spells from any class at 14th level and again at 18th level.”
If you also want to make the Bard the main caster for the group you will definitely miss out on rituals Since you main role outside of face/skill monkey is crowd control it’s painful to lose out on spell dc for rituals
For Bard pretty sure RAW magical secret spells are considered to be a part of your spell list... yup
“By 10th level, you have plundered magical knowledge from a wide spectrum of disciplines. Choose two spells from any class, including this one. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip. The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table. You learn two additional spells from any class at 14th level and again at 18th level.”
"The bard spell list" is not "your bard spells." It's that simple. If you mean in terms of the SV UA feature, then spells learned through your magical secrets feature are not learned through your spellcasting feature, so cannot be replaced with spellcasting versatility.
For Bard pretty sure RAW magical secret spells are considered to be a part of your spell list... yup
“By 10th level, you have plundered magical knowledge from a wide spectrum of disciplines. Choose two spells from any class, including this one. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip. The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table. You learn two additional spells from any class at 14th level and again at 18th level.”
"The bard spell list" is not "your bard spells." It's that simple. If you mean in terms of the SV UA feature, then spells learned through your magical secrets feature are not learned through your spellcasting feature, so cannot be replaced with spellcasting versatility.
The Bard spell list is made up of Bard spells. When you take a Magical Secret spell it's now considered a Bard spell and added to your Bard spell list. At least that's how I see it.
My understanding of Sage Advice seems to support this too:
"Can a bard replace spells gained through Magical Secrets? When you gain a level in the bard class, the class’s Spellcasting feature lets you replace one bard spell you know with another bard spell of an appropriate level. A spell learned through your Magical Secrets feature counts as a bard spell for you, so it can be replaced upon gaining a bard level later. But it must be replaced by a bard spell, according to the rule in the Spellcasting feature."
All this to me means that UA Spell Versatility allows you on long rest to change out any of your known spells from a Magic Secrets expanded list. I will say that Wizards could maybe benefit (if for no other reason than to counter stingy DM's) from one extra free spell per level or maybe one extra every other level. Or, reconsider scribing costs on higher level spells which can be rediculous. Or, give certain spells rarity levels so you can cheaply rent out more common spells... Dunno.
My understanding is "the bard spell list" is a static thing, but each PC has its own "list of spells you know as a bard." Those two lists are separate but related.
For example, you quote a Sage Advice entry that is specific to the spellcasting feature that currently exists, which uses both terms to mean different things:
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the bard spells you know and replace it with another spell from the bard spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
It says that you can take a spell you know, and replace it for on on your class list. That means you would lose the ability to choose non-bard magical secrets again later because even though counterspell or whatever counts as a bard spell for you it is not on the bard spell list. I guess RAW, the spell still counts as a bard spell for you after you forget it as a magical secret, but there is no way to get back to it other than multiclassing. This text makes no reference to how you learned the spells, it just says you can do this for any bard spell you know. That is different from the wording of the UA spell versatility:
Whenever you finish a long rest, you can replace one spell you learned from this Spellcasting feature with another spell from the bard spell list. The new spell must be the same level as the spell you replace.
The UA feature requires that the spell be one you learned from your spellcasting feature -- I can't say whether that was an intentional choice, but Magical Secrets are learned from a different feature (called Magical Secrets). This is identical to the reasoning that Warlocks can't change their mystic arcanum spells using their UA spell versatility.
Spell versatility states the feature swaps out a spell learned from the spell casting feature. Magical secrets are spells learned from the magical secrets feature. I personally think that's an oversight but technically spells learned via secrets are not eligible for spell versatility swapping. Leveling up is different in that it allows the bard to swap out a bard spell known for a spell on the bard list, and magical secrets are bard spells known for the character, so a bard can give up a spell learned from secrets for a bard spell.
Wizards are already somewhat subpar, and removing a feature is a huge drawback.
how so? Wizards are absurdly powerful look at bladesinger and divination for proof. Bladesinger is look at me I get full casting, best spell list in the game, extra attack, and arguably highest AC in the game. Divination is oh thats a nice roll on your save too bad it doesn't matter you fail because Jeremy Crawford said so lol
Wizards are already somewhat subpar, and removing a feature is a huge drawback.
how so? Wizards are absurdly powerful look at bladesinger and divination for proof. Bladesinger is look at me I get full casting, best spell list in the game, extra attack, and arguably highest AC in the game. Divination is oh thats a nice roll on your save too bad it doesn't matter you fail because Jeremy Crawford said so lol
That doesn't mean the wizard is balanced just that 2 of its sub classes have a broken feature. Without this UA, there is a reason to play wizards in general on a mechanics level, using this UA nope.
If they wanted to boost these classes a bit they should have just bumped spells known. 15 is just sad for a sorcerer, jump it to 25-30 or so. The warlock didn't need versatility it just needs hex to not be a concentration spell, which basically stops you from casting most of the spells in your list because it interferes with your hex. The bard didn't need anything, they are ridiculous as is.
The warlock didn't need versatility it just needs hex to not be a concentration spell, which basically stops you from casting most of the spells in your list because it interferes with your hex.
I have two responses to this and can’t decide so here’s both, choose the one you like:
1.) That’s funny, I thought the thing preventing my Warlock from casting his spells was that he never has any spell slots. 🤔
2.) You mean like the Ranger now gets with Hunter’s Mark? Why would they give a full-caster-equivalent the same benefit that they just gave to a 1/2-caster?
Why not just tie spell versatility to half the gold value of copying a spell into a spell book. I say half because the other classes are giving up a spell while the wizard is just gaining a new one.
The gold cost represents the Wizard actually copying the spell into the book. No other Class has a spellbook, so there is no logical reason for that expense.
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Unless spell versatility was a ritual that can only be completed once per day that required components up to X amount to change your spells.
Because Sorcerers and Warlocks and Paladins and Rangers cannot perform Rituals.
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Ok, so what if spell versatility was a ceremony that let you change 1 spell known per day to a different spell. And the cost of the ceremony's components was based on the level of the spell you were trying to change, and that cost was 1/2 the cost it takes to copy a spell into the wizard's spell book.
I just want to try and balance spell versatility to copying a spell into a wizard's spell book. Sure you can wait til you level to change it but if you absolutely need a different spell you shouldn't get it for free. This is only an issue in league and rule strict DM home game, in any home games I've played the DM would just let a sorceress change a "useless" spell.
Edit:
Wizard - For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp.
Sorceress - The ceremony costs 25 gp per spell level and takes 1 hour and requires a long rest.
If there must be a cost half seem a bit high as the wizard (who if the correct subclass gets a discount in both time and cost) is getting permanent access whenever after scribing the spell as opposed to a swap out that (I am guess would still have the same level only restriction).
... Since you can repeat spell versatility (and therefore swap back and forth) you are effectively gaining permanent access...
Sure, but the sorcerer spell list is still extremely limited on utility spells. Literally the only time this would be a big deal for a sorcerer player is if they somehow knew exactly what the next adventure is going to require spell-wise and they also have enough advance notice that they swap out their spells during downtime days. That's a lot of ifs, and I'd argue a competing wizard player is still in a better position in that scenario just because the wizard spell list is so much more versatile that even when limited to just the spells they've learned while leveling, the wizard's more likely to have an ace up their sleeve.
Possibly, but the wizard has a limited number of preparations per day. Putting a spell into my book is fine and all, but I only get to USE it if I prepare it (excluding rituals). That means if I gain permanent spellbook access to a spell, I still need a long rest to swap it for a prepared spell. Same as versatility.
I think you are making a different argument than I am.
In each thread I've seen (across multiple forums) where a gold piece cost gets brought up it seems that it is intended for every change using SV, even going back to spell previously known so I would not expect a full price in comparison to permanent access via spellbook.
I agree but some price should be paid. The question now is how much.
For Bard pretty sure RAW magical secret spells are considered to be a part of your spell list... yup
“By 10th level, you have plundered magical knowledge from a wide spectrum of disciplines. Choose two spells from any class, including this one. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip. The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table. You learn two additional spells from any class at 14th level and again at 18th level.”
If you also want to make the Bard the main caster for the group you will definitely miss out on rituals Since you main role outside of face/skill monkey is crowd control it’s painful to lose out on spell dc for rituals
"The bard spell list" is not "your bard spells." It's that simple. If you mean in terms of the SV UA feature, then spells learned through your magical secrets feature are not learned through your spellcasting feature, so cannot be replaced with spellcasting versatility.
The Bard spell list is made up of Bard spells. When you take a Magical Secret spell it's now considered a Bard spell and added to your Bard spell list. At least that's how I see it.
My understanding of Sage Advice seems to support this too:
https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/657832475729731584?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E657832475729731584&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2015%2F12%2F13%2Fa-spell-learned-via-magical-secrets%2F
"Can a bard replace spells gained through Magical Secrets? When you gain a level in the bard class, the class’s Spellcasting feature lets you replace one bard spell you know with another bard spell of an appropriate level. A spell learned through your Magical Secrets feature counts as a bard spell for you, so it can be replaced upon gaining a bard level later. But it must be replaced by a bard spell, according to the rule in the Spellcasting feature."
All this to me means that UA Spell Versatility allows you on long rest to change out any of your known spells from a Magic Secrets expanded list. I will say that Wizards could maybe benefit (if for no other reason than to counter stingy DM's) from one extra free spell per level or maybe one extra every other level. Or, reconsider scribing costs on higher level spells which can be rediculous. Or, give certain spells rarity levels so you can cheaply rent out more common spells... Dunno.
My understanding is "the bard spell list" is a static thing, but each PC has its own "list of spells you know as a bard." Those two lists are separate but related.
For example, you quote a Sage Advice entry that is specific to the spellcasting feature that currently exists, which uses both terms to mean different things:
It says that you can take a spell you know, and replace it for on on your class list. That means you would lose the ability to choose non-bard magical secrets again later because even though counterspell or whatever counts as a bard spell for you it is not on the bard spell list. I guess RAW, the spell still counts as a bard spell for you after you forget it as a magical secret, but there is no way to get back to it other than multiclassing. This text makes no reference to how you learned the spells, it just says you can do this for any bard spell you know. That is different from the wording of the UA spell versatility:
The UA feature requires that the spell be one you learned from your spellcasting feature -- I can't say whether that was an intentional choice, but Magical Secrets are learned from a different feature (called Magical Secrets). This is identical to the reasoning that Warlocks can't change their mystic arcanum spells using their UA spell versatility.
Spell versatility states the feature swaps out a spell learned from the spell casting feature. Magical secrets are spells learned from the magical secrets feature. I personally think that's an oversight but technically spells learned via secrets are not eligible for spell versatility swapping. Leveling up is different in that it allows the bard to swap out a bard spell known for a spell on the bard list, and magical secrets are bard spells known for the character, so a bard can give up a spell learned from secrets for a bard spell.
The wording is different for similar mechanics.
Wizards are already somewhat subpar, and removing a feature is a huge drawback.
how so? Wizards are absurdly powerful look at bladesinger and divination for proof. Bladesinger is look at me I get full casting, best spell list in the game, extra attack, and arguably highest AC in the game. Divination is oh thats a nice roll on your save too bad it doesn't matter you fail because Jeremy Crawford said so lol
That doesn't mean the wizard is balanced just that 2 of its sub classes have a broken feature. Without this UA, there is a reason to play wizards in general on a mechanics level, using this UA nope.
If they wanted to boost these classes a bit they should have just bumped spells known. 15 is just sad for a sorcerer, jump it to 25-30 or so. The warlock didn't need versatility it just needs hex to not be a concentration spell, which basically stops you from casting most of the spells in your list because it interferes with your hex. The bard didn't need anything, they are ridiculous as is.
I have two responses to this and can’t decide so here’s both, choose the one you like:
1.) That’s funny, I thought the thing preventing my Warlock from casting his spells was that he never has any spell slots. 🤔
2.) You mean like the Ranger now gets with Hunter’s Mark? Why would they give a full-caster-equivalent the same benefit that they just gave to a 1/2-caster?
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