I get your argument re: extra dimensional space, but i would actually say that—using your example of Rope Trick—this should be 1st level.
While they both create extra dimensional space, the space created by this is MUCH smaller than rope trick despite it having the same duration.
While this only has a somatic component only, i don’t think that the loss of V & M components puts it on the same level as a spell that creates an extra dimensional space that fits up to 8 creatures for the same amount of time.
Yeah, but people apparently are not noticing something. This spell is meant to serve a different purpose from Rope Trick. It doesn't matter that Rope Trick is bigger (we actually have no idea how big the extradimensional space is, as it never says), or can hold people in it, because the spells are meant to do different things. This spell lets you completely hide something for a very long time, and if you use it in the right circumstances, the concentration doesn't cause any problems.
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I get your argument re: extra dimensional space, but i would actually say that—using your example of Rope Trick—this should be 1st level.
While they both create extra dimensional space, the space created by this is MUCH smaller than rope trick despite it having the same duration.
While this only has a somatic component only, i don’t think that the loss of V & M components puts it on the same level as a spell that creates an extra dimensional space that fits up to 8 creatures for the same amount of time.
Yeah, but people apparently are not noticing something. This spell is meant to serve a different purpose from Rope Trick. It doesn't matter that Rope Trick is bigger (we actually have no idea how big the extradimensional space is, as it never says), or can hold people in it, because the spells are meant to do different things. This spell lets you completely hide something for a very long time, and if you use it in the right circumstances, the concentration doesn't cause any problems.
Situational usefulness does not equal overpowered.............
I get your argument re: extra dimensional space, but i would actually say that—using your example of Rope Trick—this should be 1st level.
While they both create extra dimensional space, the space created by this is MUCH smaller than rope trick despite it having the same duration.
While this only has a somatic component only, i don’t think that the loss of V & M components puts it on the same level as a spell that creates an extra dimensional space that fits up to 8 creatures for the same amount of time.
Yeah, but people apparently are not noticing something. This spell is meant to serve a different purpose from Rope Trick. It doesn't matter that Rope Trick is bigger (we actually have no idea how big the extradimensional space is, as it never says), or can hold people in it, because the spells are meant to do different things. This spell lets you completely hide something for a very long time, and if you use it in the right circumstances, the concentration doesn't cause any problems.
Situational usefulness does not equal overpowered.............
I didn't say it was overpowered.
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I'll be honest, I'm struggling to understand the logic of your statements on multiple fronts.
To return to one of your first arguments, which included the use of Enlarge/Reduce or Adjust Density, these are two issues I see in your logic:
The same caster can't cast both Wristpocket and use the above as all three require concentration (Adjust Density: "The target's weight is halved or doubled for up to 1 minute or until your concentration ends (as if you were concentrating on a spell)." Therefore, both Enlarge/Reduce and Adjust Density would be cancelled by the casting of Wristpocket, as it is a spell which requires concentration.
If you have another character cast Enlarge/Reduce or use Adjust Density as you describe, then you still have a problem to resolve, as Enlarge/Reduce and Adjust Density only last one minute. "Common sense" seems to dictate that if you can't make an object that does not fit in your hand and weigh 5lbs or less disappear, then an object that is larger than that could not fit in the extradimensional space created either.
So it the change in the object's size or weight should either rupture the extradimensional space and disappear permanently or (what I personally would think would/should happen), the spell would automatically end, dropping the object outside the extradimensional space, as the spell describes would happen at the end of the spell.
In response to the statement: "(we actually have no idea how big the extradimensional space is, as it never says)."
You are correct, we do not know exactly how large the extradimensional space for Wristpocket is.
That being said, we've already established that the same caster can't cast both Wristpocket and use either Enlarge/Reduce or Adjust Density on the object at the same time due to the concentration requirement of all three, in the instance of only one caster, the requirement still stands that the object must weigh less than 5lbs and be able to be held in one hand. (This is not "common sense" or inference: the dual requirements are stated clearly in the language of the spell.)
Thus "common sense" dictates that the size of the space is suitable to accommodate an object of specifically that size or smaller, otherwise, there is no need to include the requirements of size/weight in the spell description at all.
Finally: "Yeah, but people apparently are not noticing something. This spell is meant to serve a different purpose from Rope Trick. It doesn't matter that Rope Trick is bigger...or can hold people in it, because the spells are meant to do different things."
Well, yeah. I don't think anyone is contending that issue. What they're contending is that the intent doesn't matter and/or that the spell level shouldn't be based on the way the designers intend on it to be used. Seems to me, most content creators (including the D&D game designers)-and homebrewers are advised or instructed to--take the spell they're creating and look at spells of similar or the same level and compare the effects, not the intention. The effect of Wristpocket is that it creates an extradimensional space large enough for an object of up to 5lbs that fits in your hand that lasts for up to one hour if you do not lose concentration, with no verbal or material components. So, in that regard, here's the comparison:
Rope Trick, 2nd level transmutation, casting time 1 action, range touch, components VSM, duration 1 hour
causes a rope to rise into the air and open into an extradimensional space
extradimensional space is large enough to fit up to 8 medium or smaller creatures
is at least large enough for a 3'x5' window centered on the rope.
Wristpocket, 2nd level conjuration (ritual), casting time 1 action, range self, components S, duration up to 1 hour with concentration
creates extradimensional space to store a single object of up to 5lbs and that fits in the hand for up to 1 hour
Looking at these two, it is absolutely understandable that people think "wtf" because unless the fact that the spell is a ritual and requires only a somatic component is what causes it to be a second level spell, it doesn't make sense and would seem to make Wristpocket a lower level spell: . (Also, I would personally contend that casting it as a ritual is BS because that's basically a contradiction of the use and definition of the word "flick" but that's besides the point. And would also, btw, seem to be against the "intended" use of the spell.)
There is no official statement or canon that says that a spell of less than 2nd level can't create extradimensional spaces and there's no official statement that the intended use of a spell is what determines spell level, as opposed to the actual effect of the spell. Nor should the possible use of the spell in combination with another caster set the spell level (which the example of the use of Enlarge/Reduce or Adjust Density would require, particularly as the duration would then be diminished from "up to one hour" to a minute or less, based on E/R and AD's durations).
The implication of most of the rules outlined in the DMG section "Dungeon Masters' Workshop" is that to maintain game balance, DMs should compare the new monster/NPC/spell/magic item to others, reflavoring existing content first and customizing in comparison to other spells second. Therefore, the logic of the placement of this spell at 2nd-level seems quite strange.
I'll be honest, I'm struggling to understand the logic of your statements on multiple fronts.
To return to one of your first arguments, which included the use of Enlarge/Reduce or Adjust Density, these are two issues I see in your logic:
The same caster can't cast both Wristpocket and use the above as all three require concentration (Adjust Density: "The target's weight is halved or doubled for up to 1 minute or until your concentration ends (as if you were concentrating on a spell)." Therefore, both Enlarge/Reduce and Adjust Density would be cancelled by the casting of Wristpocket, as it is a spell which requires concentration.
If you have another character cast Enlarge/Reduce or use Adjust Density as you describe, then you still have a problem to resolve, as Enlarge/Reduce and Adjust Density only last one minute. "Common sense" seems to dictate that if you can't make an object that does not fit in your hand and weigh 5lbs or less disappear, then an object that is larger than that could not fit in the extradimensional space created either.
So it the change in the object's size or weight should either rupture the extradimensional space and disappear permanently or (what I personally would think would/should happen), the spell would automatically end, dropping the object outside the extradimensional space, as the spell describes would happen at the end of the spell.
In response to the statement: "(we actually have no idea how big the extradimensional space is, as it never says)."
You are correct, we do not know exactly how large the extradimensional space for Wristpocket is.
That being said, we've already established that the same caster can't cast both Wristpocket and use either Enlarge/Reduce or Adjust Density on the object at the same time due to the concentration requirement of all three, in the instance of only one caster, the requirement still stands that the object must weigh less than 5lbs and be able to be held in one hand. (This is not "common sense" or inference: the dual requirements are stated clearly in the language of the spell.)
Thus "common sense" dictates that the size of the space is suitable to accommodate an object of specifically that size or smaller, otherwise, there is no need to include the requirements of size/weight in the spell description at all.
Finally: "Yeah, but people apparently are not noticing something. This spell is meant to serve a different purpose from Rope Trick. It doesn't matter that Rope Trick is bigger...or can hold people in it, because the spells are meant to do different things."
Well, yeah. I don't think anyone is contending that issue. What they're contending is that the intent doesn't matter and/or that the spell level shouldn't be based on the way the designers intend on it to be used. Seems to me, most content creators (including the D&D game designers)-and homebrewers are advised or instructed to--take the spell they're creating and look at spells of similar or the same level and compare the effects, not the intention. The effect of Wristpocket is that it creates an extradimensional space large enough for an object of up to 5lbs that fits in your hand that lasts for up to one hour if you do not lose concentration, with no verbal or material components. So, in that regard, here's the comparison:
Rope Trick, 2nd level transmutation, casting time 1 action, range touch, components VSM, duration 1 hour
causes a rope to rise into the air and open into an extradimensional space
extradimensional space is large enough to fit up to 8 medium or smaller creatures
is at least large enough for a 3'x5' window centered on the rope.
Wristpocket, 2nd level conjuration (ritual), casting time 1 action, range self, components S, duration up to 1 hour with concentration
creates extradimensional space to store a single object of up to 5lbs and that fits in the hand for up to 1 hour
Looking at these two, it is absolutely understandable that people think "wtf" because unless the fact that the spell is a ritual and requires only a somatic component is what causes it to be a second level spell, it doesn't make sense and would seem to make Wristpocket a lower level spell: . (Also, I would personally contend that casting it as a ritual is BS because that's basically a contradiction of the use and definition of the word "flick" but that's besides the point. And would also, btw, seem to be against the "intended" use of the spell.)
There is no official statement or canon that says that a spell of less than 2nd level can't create extradimensional spaces and there's no official statement that the intended use of a spell is what determines spell level, as opposed to the actual effect of the spell. Nor should the possible use of the spell in combination with another caster set the spell level (which the example of the use of Enlarge/Reduce or Adjust Density would require, particularly as the duration would then be diminished from "up to one hour" to a minute or less, based on E/R and AD's durations).
The implication of most of the rules outlined in the DMG section "Dungeon Masters' Workshop" is that to maintain game balance, DMs should compare the new monster/NPC/spell/magic item to others, reflavoring existing content first and customizing in comparison to other spells second. Therefore, the logic of the placement of this spell at 2nd-level seems quite strange.
I see someone is testifying in the church today!
But to throw my own two cents in, making Wrist Pocket a cantrip is not nearly as broken as one person seems to believe. For one, its limited to only the Dunamis specific subclasses of Wizard and such can only be accessed via multiclassing and even if it were switched to a cantrip or 1st Level spell, you still wouldn't be able to get it through Magic Initiate. but for the sake of "balance" lets cook up potential changes to keep it in line with what other cantrips
1. Add the Verbal component (personally, I dont feel that its needed as to me, a Somatic component for spell casting requires a more involved motion of the hands/arms and at my table, if a mage wants to be more subtle they would HAVE to make a Sleight of Hand check).
2. Add and specify that attuned items or items being worn or carried by another creature other than the caster cannot be transported to the extra dimensional space.
3. Drop the Concentration aspect. It being concentration is weird in all honesty especially for so little benefit.
On a lark, I took a look at other 1st - 3rd level spells that require concentration, no costed materials, and can be cast as a ritual. We get Detect Magic (1st level) and Skywrite (2nd level).
Given that Wristpocket could be used to easily hide things from Detect Magic, I'd argue it's definitely the more powerful spell.
To me, it's also more powerful than Skywrite since there are more scenarios in which Wristpocket would come in handy (which isn't to say Skywrite isn't a lot of fun!).
I do think though that 2nd level is still a good placement since 3rd level spells are really quite powerful. Unfortunately though there doesn't seem to be a 3rd level, ritual, concentration spell to compare it against.
Can you do enlarge and reduce though? Could you reduce an object and then Wristpocket it? Both spells are concentration, so you might have to drop enlarge/reduce beforehand, so I cant see that working unless you have a second mage helping.
Can you do enlarge and reduce though? Could you reduce an object and then Wristpocket it? Both spells are concentration, so you might have to drop enlarge/reduce beforehand, so I cant see that working unless you have a second mage helping.
The concentration lasts until another concentration spell is cast, so the effect lasts until just after you cast the new version. Therefore, the new size and weight is the one that is targeted by the Wristpocket spell, not the original.
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I can see the issues with having that at will disappearing ability, but I do not believe it would be over powered to have Wristpocket be a cantrip even if it didn't have the restriction of a Dunamancy Wizard.
First some of the arguments I can see is that it would be OP for stealing. What the hell are you talking about? How would this be OP? Any rogue who wants to be a thief most likely has an amazing slight of hand check to where most weren't going to see them take something anyways. Also, if you read the rules on spellcasting, just because it has only a somatic component doesn't mean that it is completely impossible for someone to see it happening. If you're the DM and you are really afraid to have it be used to be the ultimate thief just make any object that is sent away through this spell makes a flash or light as it disappears or even makes a popping sound as it leaves.
Then there is the argument that someone uses this spell as a cantrip to make some powerful magic item that the BBEG needs just disappear then I would recommend to applaud your players ingenuity, make the item weight more than 5 pounds, or turn this into a wonderful chase combat with the BBEG focusing hard on the spellcaster daring to attempt this.
I have this spell as a Cantrip in a campaign that I'm playing in. The spell can only hold one item at a time so do you know what I use it for more often than not? It's to hold my rapier (I'm playing an Arcane Trickster). Yep that's it, because I don't need it to help me steal, I can turn invisible and have a +20 in slight of hand checks (gloves of Thievery). If there was a BBEG that was stupid enough to just keep some powerful mystical item just lying around for me to grab, then I think that would be the fault of the BBEG or the DM for allowing it.
Lastly, if none of the above really points out that this would not be OP as a cantrip, then here is a quick easy fix. Make the Cantrip have a casting time of 1 minute. Boom most of your worries are gone. This still allows someone to make use of the spell as a cantrip, hiding one object of 5 pounds or less (Personally think a Wizard would use this to hide their spellbook) and then bringing it back as an action/bonus action, without the fear of those instant grabs and vanish tactics that make some of you quiver with fear.
I'm still unsure why a spell that can only store a small item for a very short period of time, and requires concentration, should not be a cantrip. You're not going to use up your concentration to hold an item. If you manage to disarm the bbeg and be able to cast the spell you deserve it, until they hit you and you drop concentration. If the worry is free stealth casting, then make it verbal and somatic.
Even your specific example requires a feat at level one just to make this one spell "too powerful"
If it didn't require concentration and lasted 8 hours then first or second level makes sense. Otherwise you get more functionality from a portable hole for a one time fee.
This spell can potentially make fights in a lot more scenario's more viable. Since most weapons except for the largest and heaviest are 5lbs or less. This is a powerful infiltration tool. It's an Assassin or blackmailers wet dream. Not a lot of spells or abilities guarantee they are going to get past the guards while establishing or maintaining an alibi by going in and out the front gate and usually involves some kind of whacky set up quest just to get weapons inside let alone all your other gear and usually ends up meaning that your forced to find a different way out.
Anybody that's had a klepto party can tell you about the stealing potentials of this spell because they love for the chances to go "I didn't steal nothin. You can even search me!" High Sleight of Hand is not guaranteed on rogues since it tends not to be a preferred expertise trait until after things like thieves tools and stealth have already been covered. And even when they do take it early on it can be countered by high perception and feats like Observant which it's actually strange more guards around such establishments don't have it than guards that do.
Rope Trick doesn't and can't move. That's it's trade off for being able to hold a lot of stuff. And it's been a wish of many a group that I've seen make use of it that they could move this spell around. Drag it by it's rope or whatever to bypass dangers like traps and deadly cloud spells and the like in relative safety. This is much smaller but it is potentially highly mobile in comparison and it can be done without potentially alerting the guard around the corner that your casting a spell like Rope Trick can cause. This balances out between the two for being 2nd level spells and both in their own ways are precursors to other higher level and potentially more permanent spells.
Then on top of it this spell has some real performance uses for bards or thieves that do such things and like to put on shows. Not all of which are on the up and up. So it can be used both on stage and while fleecing the crowd.
Prestidigitations usefulness even out of combat doesn't even close to this spell. But you think they should both be cantrips? Prestidigitations usage doesn't even match what most games actually let it get away with let alone anything on this list. And creative players can probably come up with a lot more to do with this than I've touched on here.
While I personally think that there's a lot of good points made by people who thought this was at a perfectly reasonable power level as a cantrip, I can understand DMs worrying about the edge cases. That's probably how it got to second level and concentration, with WOTC designers wanting to preserve the possibility of shenanigans but at least make you commit resources to them. However, I think it's a shame that in the process the most basic, fair RP usage of choosing a small item that you can make appear and disappear at will became untenable. Even as a ritual, there's no way you're going to be able to constantly concentrate and recast this spell every hour just to make your spellbook/wallet/pocketknife appear and disappear.
In that vein, my DM and I put our heads together and came up with the following addendum to the spell. It preserves the current gates on shenanigans, but makes using the spell in that more fair mode more tenable. We added the following to the end of the spell:
When you cast this spell as a ritual, you can choose to spend an hour on the ritual instead of ten minutes. If you do so, the spell lasts until the next time you cast it or until you die, whichever comes first, without requiring your concentration.
Now all the other requirements for shenanigans are still present, but if you want to be fancy with your spellbook you can do so!
I'm sorry if someone has already mentioned this but how in the unholy abyss can you compare Rope Trick which can hold up to 8 medium creatures and all of their equipment while giving a view to the outside world and obscuring view into the space with a spell that only disappears up to 5 pounds for the same amount of time?! AT MOST Wristpocket should be a first level spell with the 1 hour time and concentration limitations. We're talking 2.26kg. Roughly a spellbook or a stone the size of 2 fists. Sure, with creativity it could be game breaking but that could be said of almost any other spell with the right amount of imagination. I'm sorry, but if it's going to have the limitations of 1 hour and concentration, making it a second level spell on par with rope trick is absolute insanity.
I'm sorry if someone has already mentioned this but how in the unholy abyss can you compare Rope Trick which can hold up to 8 medium creatures and all of their equipment while giving a view to the outside world and obscuring view into the space with a spell that only disappears up to 5 pounds for the same amount of time?! AT MOST Wristpocket should be a first level spell with the 1 hour time and concentration limitations. We're talking 2.26kg. Roughly a spellbook or a stone the size of 2 fists. Sure, with creativity it could be game breaking but that could be said of almost any other spell with the right amount of imagination. I'm sorry, but if it's going to have the limitations of 1 hour and concentration, making it a second level spell on par with rope trick is absolute insanity.
Your Not Examining all the factors. Your only comparing weight and deciding that is the only parameter of the spell. Three are others such as the ability to move Wrist Pocket Around. Wrist Pocket gives up space to be able to do other things which is what makes it comparable at the same level. Rope Trick holds more because it is entirely immobile. They are in par with each other with each one being better in different ways. not all level 2 spells of this nature need to hold the same amount if they can do other things instead.
Wristpocket and enlarge reduce are both concentration spells, you'd have to get someone else to cast the other. Also chronurgy and graviturgy are two different subclasses, again you'd need another person in this specific circumstance to agree to go along with it. Not agreeing with you or disagreeing, just correcting these 2 details.
Not to mention extradimensional spaces mean distance is irrelevant, so you can carry around glyphs of warding without breaking the "cannot be moved 10 feet from casting location" hitch. Very useful for situations like sneak attacks. For example, you could Glyph of Warding a piece of paper with Revivify or Cure Wounds that's set to trigger when you die or take damage, respectively, and then Wristpocket it. You get sneak attack'd and damaged or instant killed. Concentration breaks, and suddenly you're instantly back up the health/back alive. All I'm saying is, you can call someone at WotC an idiot for giving you extra lives because they're useless all you want, but it says more about you than it does them ;)
Wristpocket would not let you get around the 10 ft movement restriction of Glyph of Warding. Even if putting the warded object into the extradimensional space of the pocket dimension didn’t count as moving 10 ft, when you take it out of the pocket it will definitely have moved 10 ft as long as you have. There is no time at which the wristpocket extradimensional space is open and accessible to be cast directly into. You can just shunt objects into and out of it. So if you cast glyph on that object, put the object in a pocket, move, and then retrieve the object before you can even trigger it the glyph recognizes it is more than 10 ft away and fizzles. The only way this could even remotely work is if you triggered the glyph while it was still in the pocket dimension, and then you’d be relying on the DM allowing a spell triggered in an entirely different dimension to affect you and good luck with that.
This spell can potentially make fights in a lot more scenario's more viable. Since most weapons except for the largest and heaviest are 5lbs or less. This is a powerful infiltration tool. It's an Assassin or blackmailers wet dream. Not a lot of spells or abilities guarantee they are going to get past the guards while establishing or maintaining an alibi by going in and out the front gate and usually involves some kind of whacky set up quest just to get weapons inside let alone all your other gear and usually ends up meaning that your forced to find a different way out.
'Invisibility is second level. There is very little that Wristpocket can do that invisibility straight up can't do better. And invisibility you can cast on other people as well... So the wizard can cast it on the rogue instead of the rogue needing to invest in 3 levels for just 1 spell. While See Invisibility does counter this, very few creatures consistently cast it every hour on the hour (See Invisibility is also a 2nd level spell).
Anybody that's had a klepto party can tell you about the stealing potentials of this spell because they love for the chances to go "I didn't steal nothin. You can even search me!" High Sleight of Hand is not guaranteed on rogues since it tends not to be a preferred expertise trait until after things like thieves tools and stealth have already been covered. And even when they do take it early on it can be countered by high perception and feats like Observant which it's actually strange more guards around such establishments don't have it than guards that do.
But high Stealth is a pretty solid bet on any rogues. You are pretty much going to have to make a Stealth or Slight of Hand to steal the item anyways because any shopkeeper that sees you with an object that suddenly disappears won't just go "Well I can't find object that you just picked up on your person so I'm going to assume gremlins took it and you holding it in your hand just a second earlier is just a coincidence". And if you do succeed in a stealth or slight of hand check first, then they never see you picking it up in the first place, and have no reason to strip search you.
Rope Trick doesn't and can't move. That's it's trade off for being able to hold a lot of stuff. And it's been a wish of many a group that I've seen make use of it that they could move this spell around. Drag it by it's rope or whatever to bypass dangers like traps and deadly cloud spells and the like in relative safety. This is much smaller but it is potentially highly mobile in comparison and it can be done without potentially alerting the guard around the corner that your casting a spell like Rope Trick can cause. This balances out between the two for being 2nd level spells and both in their own ways are precursors to other higher level and potentially more permanent spells.
Yes... People want rope trick to be able to move because they want essentially an AoE etherealness for a 2nd level spell. Holding 8 creatures and keeping them relatively safe is much more useful than something with 5lb weight but mobile.
Then on top of it this spell has some real performance uses for bards or thieves that do such things and like to put on shows. Not all of which are on the up and up. So it can be used both on stage and while fleecing the crowd.
Magic tricks work in real world because there is no magic in the real world. So yeah, some peasants in a village somewhere might not have heard that magic is a thing, but peasants don't carry much coin. In most cities, especially in those with shops that sell potions, or have adventurers guilds, or a court magician or any number of magical things, people know that magic exists. What are you going to do to fleece a crowd that other spells, or a high sleight of hand or performance check can't do better?
Prestidigitations usefulness even out of combat doesn't even close to this spell. But you think they should both be cantrips? Prestidigitations usage doesn't even match what most games actually let it get away with let alone anything on this list. And creative players can probably come up with a lot more to do with this than I've touched on here.
Prestidigitation+Keen Mind can replicate any non-magical key.
Snuff out a campfire before an attack, or torches or any light source
Make that bland create food/water taste amazing
Leave messages on the walls.
Generally not looking like murderers after committing murder.
Create an extendible hand mirror to look around corners
As for wristpocket, pretty much every one of its effects can be mimicked by simple spells or just ability checks:
Wow a crowd > Performance, Prestidigitation, Silent Image
Fighter Disarmed Big Bad > Catapult, Mage Hand, maybe ask the fighter to just kick it away
Bomb about to explode > Intelligence Check, Catapult, Rope Trick
Sneaking something past guards > Stealth Check, Invisibility
Have a very important mcguffin that you need to protect > Stealth Check, Invisibility, Run+Dash in the opposite direction
Make money fast > Performance, Do quests, raid dungeons and slay dragons
As a wizard, you should have access to most of these anyways and a lot of them are way more useful than wristpocket
I have said many times, and will say again: Cantrips don't create dimensions. Wristpocket creates an extradimensional space. It is very useful. People who can't find uses for it that are clearly level 2 spell level equal abilities aren't trying hard enough to find creative uses of it:
Get rid of a bomb with no consequences whatsoever.
Transport a block of ice.
Combine with a few other abilities to secretly move a body, or other item that you must keep secret.
Move an immovable rod or immovable object.
Hide a weapon when you most need to.
Be the best street magician ever.
There are infinite uses of this ability, only limited to your imagination.
Add the best poisoner/assassin. Vial/herbs/powder become undetectable this way. Get searched, no problem, poison the target, job done.
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Yeah, but people apparently are not noticing something. This spell is meant to serve a different purpose from Rope Trick. It doesn't matter that Rope Trick is bigger (we actually have no idea how big the extradimensional space is, as it never says), or can hold people in it, because the spells are meant to do different things. This spell lets you completely hide something for a very long time, and if you use it in the right circumstances, the concentration doesn't cause any problems.
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Situational usefulness does not equal overpowered.............
I didn't say it was overpowered.
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I'll be honest, I'm struggling to understand the logic of your statements on multiple fronts.
To return to one of your first arguments, which included the use of Enlarge/Reduce or Adjust Density, these are two issues I see in your logic:
So it the change in the object's size or weight should either rupture the extradimensional space and disappear permanently or (what I personally would think would/should happen), the spell would automatically end, dropping the object outside the extradimensional space, as the spell describes would happen at the end of the spell.
In response to the statement: "(we actually have no idea how big the extradimensional space is, as it never says)."
You are correct, we do not know exactly how large the extradimensional space for Wristpocket is.
That being said, we've already established that the same caster can't cast both Wristpocket and use either Enlarge/Reduce or Adjust Density on the object at the same time due to the concentration requirement of all three, in the instance of only one caster, the requirement still stands that the object must weigh less than 5lbs and be able to be held in one hand. (This is not "common sense" or inference: the dual requirements are stated clearly in the language of the spell.)
Thus "common sense" dictates that the size of the space is suitable to accommodate an object of specifically that size or smaller, otherwise, there is no need to include the requirements of size/weight in the spell description at all.
Finally: "Yeah, but people apparently are not noticing something. This spell is meant to serve a different purpose from Rope Trick. It doesn't matter that Rope Trick is bigger...or can hold people in it, because the spells are meant to do different things."
Well, yeah. I don't think anyone is contending that issue. What they're contending is that the intent doesn't matter and/or that the spell level shouldn't be based on the way the designers intend on it to be used. Seems to me, most content creators (including the D&D game designers)-and homebrewers are advised or instructed to--take the spell they're creating and look at spells of similar or the same level and compare the effects, not the intention. The effect of Wristpocket is that it creates an extradimensional space large enough for an object of up to 5lbs that fits in your hand that lasts for up to one hour if you do not lose concentration, with no verbal or material components. So, in that regard, here's the comparison:
Rope Trick, 2nd level transmutation, casting time 1 action, range touch, components VSM, duration 1 hour
Wristpocket, 2nd level conjuration (ritual), casting time 1 action, range self, components S, duration up to 1 hour with concentration
Looking at these two, it is absolutely understandable that people think "wtf" because unless the fact that the spell is a ritual and requires only a somatic component is what causes it to be a second level spell, it doesn't make sense and would seem to make Wristpocket a lower level spell: . (Also, I would personally contend that casting it as a ritual is BS because that's basically a contradiction of the use and definition of the word "flick" but that's besides the point. And would also, btw, seem to be against the "intended" use of the spell.)
There is no official statement or canon that says that a spell of less than 2nd level can't create extradimensional spaces and there's no official statement that the intended use of a spell is what determines spell level, as opposed to the actual effect of the spell. Nor should the possible use of the spell in combination with another caster set the spell level (which the example of the use of Enlarge/Reduce or Adjust Density would require, particularly as the duration would then be diminished from "up to one hour" to a minute or less, based on E/R and AD's durations).
The implication of most of the rules outlined in the DMG section "Dungeon Masters' Workshop" is that to maintain game balance, DMs should compare the new monster/NPC/spell/magic item to others, reflavoring existing content first and customizing in comparison to other spells second. Therefore, the logic of the placement of this spell at 2nd-level seems quite strange.
I see someone is testifying in the church today!
But to throw my own two cents in, making Wrist Pocket a cantrip is not nearly as broken as one person seems to believe. For one, its limited to only the Dunamis specific subclasses of Wizard and such can only be accessed via multiclassing and even if it were switched to a cantrip or 1st Level spell, you still wouldn't be able to get it through Magic Initiate. but for the sake of "balance" lets cook up potential changes to keep it in line with what other cantrips
1. Add the Verbal component (personally, I dont feel that its needed as to me, a Somatic component for spell casting requires a more involved motion of the hands/arms and at my table, if a mage wants to be more subtle they would HAVE to make a Sleight of Hand check).
2. Add and specify that attuned items or items being worn or carried by another creature other than the caster cannot be transported to the extra dimensional space.
3. Drop the Concentration aspect. It being concentration is weird in all honesty especially for so little benefit.
This shouldn't even be a spell. It is too powerful. It should be a magic item that requires attunement.
On a lark, I took a look at other 1st - 3rd level spells that require concentration, no costed materials, and can be cast as a ritual. We get Detect Magic (1st level) and Skywrite (2nd level).
Given that Wristpocket could be used to easily hide things from Detect Magic, I'd argue it's definitely the more powerful spell.
To me, it's also more powerful than Skywrite since there are more scenarios in which Wristpocket would come in handy (which isn't to say Skywrite isn't a lot of fun!).
I do think though that 2nd level is still a good placement since 3rd level spells are really quite powerful. Unfortunately though there doesn't seem to be a 3rd level, ritual, concentration spell to compare it against.
Can you do enlarge and reduce though? Could you reduce an object and then Wristpocket it? Both spells are concentration, so you might have to drop enlarge/reduce beforehand, so I cant see that working unless you have a second mage helping.
The concentration lasts until another concentration spell is cast, so the effect lasts until just after you cast the new version. Therefore, the new size and weight is the one that is targeted by the Wristpocket spell, not the original.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I can see the issues with having that at will disappearing ability, but I do not believe it would be over powered to have Wristpocket be a cantrip even if it didn't have the restriction of a Dunamancy Wizard.
First some of the arguments I can see is that it would be OP for stealing. What the hell are you talking about? How would this be OP? Any rogue who wants to be a thief most likely has an amazing slight of hand check to where most weren't going to see them take something anyways. Also, if you read the rules on spellcasting, just because it has only a somatic component doesn't mean that it is completely impossible for someone to see it happening. If you're the DM and you are really afraid to have it be used to be the ultimate thief just make any object that is sent away through this spell makes a flash or light as it disappears or even makes a popping sound as it leaves.
Then there is the argument that someone uses this spell as a cantrip to make some powerful magic item that the BBEG needs just disappear then I would recommend to applaud your players ingenuity, make the item weight more than 5 pounds, or turn this into a wonderful chase combat with the BBEG focusing hard on the spellcaster daring to attempt this.
I have this spell as a Cantrip in a campaign that I'm playing in. The spell can only hold one item at a time so do you know what I use it for more often than not? It's to hold my rapier (I'm playing an Arcane Trickster). Yep that's it, because I don't need it to help me steal, I can turn invisible and have a +20 in slight of hand checks (gloves of Thievery). If there was a BBEG that was stupid enough to just keep some powerful mystical item just lying around for me to grab, then I think that would be the fault of the BBEG or the DM for allowing it.
Lastly, if none of the above really points out that this would not be OP as a cantrip, then here is a quick easy fix. Make the Cantrip have a casting time of 1 minute. Boom most of your worries are gone. This still allows someone to make use of the spell as a cantrip, hiding one object of 5 pounds or less (Personally think a Wizard would use this to hide their spellbook) and then bringing it back as an action/bonus action, without the fear of those instant grabs and vanish tactics that make some of you quiver with fear.
I'm still unsure why a spell that can only store a small item for a very short period of time, and requires concentration, should not be a cantrip. You're not going to use up your concentration to hold an item. If you manage to disarm the bbeg and be able to cast the spell you deserve it, until they hit you and you drop concentration. If the worry is free stealth casting, then make it verbal and somatic.
Even your specific example requires a feat at level one just to make this one spell "too powerful"
If it didn't require concentration and lasted 8 hours then first or second level makes sense. Otherwise you get more functionality from a portable hole for a one time fee.
This spell can potentially make fights in a lot more scenario's more viable. Since most weapons except for the largest and heaviest are 5lbs or less. This is a powerful infiltration tool. It's an Assassin or blackmailers wet dream. Not a lot of spells or abilities guarantee they are going to get past the guards while establishing or maintaining an alibi by going in and out the front gate and usually involves some kind of whacky set up quest just to get weapons inside let alone all your other gear and usually ends up meaning that your forced to find a different way out.
Anybody that's had a klepto party can tell you about the stealing potentials of this spell because they love for the chances to go "I didn't steal nothin. You can even search me!" High Sleight of Hand is not guaranteed on rogues since it tends not to be a preferred expertise trait until after things like thieves tools and stealth have already been covered. And even when they do take it early on it can be countered by high perception and feats like Observant which it's actually strange more guards around such establishments don't have it than guards that do.
Rope Trick doesn't and can't move. That's it's trade off for being able to hold a lot of stuff. And it's been a wish of many a group that I've seen make use of it that they could move this spell around. Drag it by it's rope or whatever to bypass dangers like traps and deadly cloud spells and the like in relative safety. This is much smaller but it is potentially highly mobile in comparison and it can be done without potentially alerting the guard around the corner that your casting a spell like Rope Trick can cause. This balances out between the two for being 2nd level spells and both in their own ways are precursors to other higher level and potentially more permanent spells.
Then on top of it this spell has some real performance uses for bards or thieves that do such things and like to put on shows. Not all of which are on the up and up. So it can be used both on stage and while fleecing the crowd.
Prestidigitations usefulness even out of combat doesn't even close to this spell. But you think they should both be cantrips? Prestidigitations usage doesn't even match what most games actually let it get away with let alone anything on this list. And creative players can probably come up with a lot more to do with this than I've touched on here.
While I personally think that there's a lot of good points made by people who thought this was at a perfectly reasonable power level as a cantrip, I can understand DMs worrying about the edge cases. That's probably how it got to second level and concentration, with WOTC designers wanting to preserve the possibility of shenanigans but at least make you commit resources to them. However, I think it's a shame that in the process the most basic, fair RP usage of choosing a small item that you can make appear and disappear at will became untenable. Even as a ritual, there's no way you're going to be able to constantly concentrate and recast this spell every hour just to make your spellbook/wallet/pocketknife appear and disappear.
In that vein, my DM and I put our heads together and came up with the following addendum to the spell. It preserves the current gates on shenanigans, but makes using the spell in that more fair mode more tenable. We added the following to the end of the spell:
When you cast this spell as a ritual, you can choose to spend an hour on the ritual instead of ten minutes. If you do so, the spell lasts until the next time you cast it or until you die, whichever comes first, without requiring your concentration.
Now all the other requirements for shenanigans are still present, but if you want to be fancy with your spellbook you can do so!
I'm sorry if someone has already mentioned this but how in the unholy abyss can you compare Rope Trick which can hold up to 8 medium creatures and all of their equipment while giving a view to the outside world and obscuring view into the space with a spell that only disappears up to 5 pounds for the same amount of time?! AT MOST Wristpocket should be a first level spell with the 1 hour time and concentration limitations. We're talking 2.26kg. Roughly a spellbook or a stone the size of 2 fists. Sure, with creativity it could be game breaking but that could be said of almost any other spell with the right amount of imagination. I'm sorry, but if it's going to have the limitations of 1 hour and concentration, making it a second level spell on par with rope trick is absolute insanity.
Your Not Examining all the factors. Your only comparing weight and deciding that is the only parameter of the spell. Three are others such as the ability to move Wrist Pocket Around. Wrist Pocket gives up space to be able to do other things which is what makes it comparable at the same level. Rope Trick holds more because it is entirely immobile. They are in par with each other with each one being better in different ways. not all level 2 spells of this nature need to hold the same amount if they can do other things instead.
Wristpocket and enlarge reduce are both concentration spells, you'd have to get someone else to cast the other. Also chronurgy and graviturgy are two different subclasses, again you'd need another person in this specific circumstance to agree to go along with it. Not agreeing with you or disagreeing, just correcting these 2 details.
Not to mention extradimensional spaces mean distance is irrelevant, so you can carry around glyphs of warding without breaking the "cannot be moved 10 feet from casting location" hitch. Very useful for situations like sneak attacks. For example, you could Glyph of Warding a piece of paper with Revivify or Cure Wounds that's set to trigger when you die or take damage, respectively, and then Wristpocket it. You get sneak attack'd and damaged or instant killed. Concentration breaks, and suddenly you're instantly back up the health/back alive. All I'm saying is, you can call someone at WotC an idiot for giving you extra lives because they're useless all you want, but it says more about you than it does them ;)
Wristpocket would not let you get around the 10 ft movement restriction of Glyph of Warding. Even if putting the warded object into the extradimensional space of the pocket dimension didn’t count as moving 10 ft, when you take it out of the pocket it will definitely have moved 10 ft as long as you have. There is no time at which the wristpocket extradimensional space is open and accessible to be cast directly into. You can just shunt objects into and out of it. So if you cast glyph on that object, put the object in a pocket, move, and then retrieve the object before you can even trigger it the glyph recognizes it is more than 10 ft away and fizzles. The only way this could even remotely work is if you triggered the glyph while it was still in the pocket dimension, and then you’d be relying on the DM allowing a spell triggered in an entirely different dimension to affect you and good luck with that.
'Invisibility is second level. There is very little that Wristpocket can do that invisibility straight up can't do better. And invisibility you can cast on other people as well... So the wizard can cast it on the rogue instead of the rogue needing to invest in 3 levels for just 1 spell. While See Invisibility does counter this, very few creatures consistently cast it every hour on the hour (See Invisibility is also a 2nd level spell).
But high Stealth is a pretty solid bet on any rogues. You are pretty much going to have to make a Stealth or Slight of Hand to steal the item anyways because any shopkeeper that sees you with an object that suddenly disappears won't just go "Well I can't find object that you just picked up on your person so I'm going to assume gremlins took it and you holding it in your hand just a second earlier is just a coincidence". And if you do succeed in a stealth or slight of hand check first, then they never see you picking it up in the first place, and have no reason to strip search you.
Yes... People want rope trick to be able to move because they want essentially an AoE etherealness for a 2nd level spell. Holding 8 creatures and keeping them relatively safe is much more useful than something with 5lb weight but mobile.
Magic tricks work in real world because there is no magic in the real world. So yeah, some peasants in a village somewhere might not have heard that magic is a thing, but peasants don't carry much coin. In most cities, especially in those with shops that sell potions, or have adventurers guilds, or a court magician or any number of magical things, people know that magic exists. What are you going to do to fleece a crowd that other spells, or a high sleight of hand or performance check can't do better?
As for wristpocket, pretty much every one of its effects can be mimicked by simple spells or just ability checks:
As a wizard, you should have access to most of these anyways and a lot of them are way more useful than wristpocket
Add the best poisoner/assassin. Vial/herbs/powder become undetectable this way. Get searched, no problem, poison the target, job done.