Only legendary creatures have lairs or regional effects. Wyrmlings and Young dragons are not legendary creatures and so their MM entries should not include the regional and lair effects. That is giving people the impression that they should have these things.
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I would not say big, huge, massive, major error. The truth is that there is no clear definition of what a legendary creature is. Moreover, Volo's Guide to Monster set a precedent on lair actions and regional effects to hags, which are relatively low CR.
I would not say big, huge, massive, major error. The truth is that there is no clear definition of what a legendary creature is. Moreover, Volo's Guide to Monster set a precedent on lair actions and regional effects to hags, which are relatively low CR.
Actually, that is an exception to the rule that proves the rule:
If a hag is a grandmother, she gains a set of lair actions appropriate to her nature, knowledge, and history.
I don't see the definition of legendary creature as having legendary actions. The definition provided by the MM is:
A legendary creature can do things that ordinary creatures can’t. Legendary creatures can take special actions outside their turns, and a few can exert power over their environment, causing extraordinary magical effects to occur in their vicinity.
So, if the definition of legendary creature is that "can take special actions outside their turns", it qualifies both legendary and lair actions. A legendary creature can have lair but not legendary actions.
I think you need to learn what the words Big, Huge, Massive and Major mean as you are using them incorrectly. Or you're overusing hyperbole for some humorous effect I don't get.
The creatures in question are legendary creatures according to the Monster Manual definition.
Even if they are not the Monster Manual gives them the lair actions as detailed on page 86 and this has not been changed in any errata.
It is therefore not an error, of any size, for the Monster Manual content on D&D Beyond to give them lair actions, it is just following the book.
Even if you disagree with the decision for them to have these lair actions that is a discussion for a different forum (this one is for bugs and getting help, not personal opinions on a book's content). D&D Beyond are not responsible for what Wizards of the Coast publish. Even if they should not have lair actions in your personal opinion this is only your preference, not an error.
This is a failure on the organisation of the Monster Manual then. The Monster Manual states any creature with a lair action is "legendary" and the sections on dragons imply all dragons have lair actions because it is listed for the overall dragon not the age (wyrmling, young, adult, ancient). However, there is a sentence in that lair section stating a "legendary dragon". Based off JC's twitter I can only assume this must mean then only those with legendary actions in the stat block are considered legendary. Although, the details on "lair actions" on Page 11 signify ANY creature with lair actions are legendary.
It does not state anywhere that to qualify as legendary a creature must have legendary actions.
So either JC is contradicting the MM or the MM was written wrong.
I don't see the definition of legendary creature as having legendary actions. The definition provided by the MM is:
A legendary creature can do things that ordinary creatures can’t. Legendary creatures can take special actions outside their turns, and a few can exert power over their environment, causing extraordinary magical effects to occur in their vicinity.
So, if the definition of legendary creature is that "can take special actions outside their turns", it qualifies both legendary and lair actions. A legendary creature can have lair but not legendary actions.
I don't see the definition of legendary creature as having legendary actions. The definition provided by the MM is:
A legendary creature can do things that ordinary creatures can’t. Legendary creatures can take special actions outside their turns, and a few can exert power over their environment, causing extraordinary magical effects to occur in their vicinity.
So, if the definition of legendary creature is that "can take special actions outside their turns", it qualifies both legendary and lair actions. A legendary creature can have lair but not legendary actions.
We will keep our eye on it. The tweet confirmes that the definition of legendary creature in the MM is quite vague.
The fact that wyrmlings and young dragons aren't legendary creatures (according to that tweet) does not mean that Lair actions and Regional effects are not part of the monster description.
We will keep our eye on it. The tweet confirmes that the definition of legendary creature in the MM is quite vague.
The fact that wyrmlings and young dragons aren't legendary creatures (according to that tweet) does not mean that Lair actions and Regional effects are not part of the monster description.
I'll keep you informed.
It literally does the exact opposite of what you're saying. It confirms that the definition is not vague at all and it confirms that lair actions and regional effects are not part of the monster description. I mean, seriously, how on earth can you arrive at any other conclusion when the evidence, from the sage himself, is so incredibly clear?
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
We will keep our eye on it. The tweet confirmes that the definition of legendary creature in the MM is quite vague.
The fact that wyrmlings and young dragons aren't legendary creatures (according to that tweet) does not mean that Lair actions and Regional effects are not part of the monster description.
I'll keep you informed.
It literally does the exact opposite of what you're saying. It confirms that the definition is not vague at all and it confirms that lair actions and regional effects are not part of the monster description. I mean, seriously, how on earth can you arrive at any other conclusion when the evidence, from the sage himself, is so incredibly clear?
Because it is NOT clear.
The Monster Monster shows that any creature with a Lair Action is Legendary. The details on dragons say ALL dragons, from wyrmlings to ancients, have lair actions. By the Monster Manual this means even wyrmlings and young dragons legendary, and all legendary dragons have regional effects too.
JC's tweet is a direct contradiction. So either the Monster Manual was written incorrectly or JC is wrong (he has been wrong before, also bear in mind he did not design the dragon write up or what legendary creatures are) - a tweet alone from him does not mean anything, it is only regarded as official when it makes it into Sage Advice or Errata and this tweet contradicting the MM has not been included in either.
According to the Monster Manual D&D Beyond have it correct. If it turns out the Monster Manual is wrong I am sure D&D Beyond will fix it. But it will have to be officially stated as such through Sage Advice or Errata before this would happen, I would imagine.
For clarity's sake - I assume you mean the OFFICIAL Sage Advice on the D&D website (Sage Advice) rather than the fan-made page that collates tweets/AMA from various folks (Sage Advice)
For clarity's sake - I assume you mean the OFFICIAL Sage Advice on the D&D website (Sage Advice) rather than the fan-made page that collates tweets/AMA from various folks (Sage Advice)
For clarity's sake - I assume you mean the OFFICIAL Sage Advice on the D&D website (Sage Advice) rather than the fan-made page that collates tweets/AMA from various folks (Sage Advice)
My link was to Jeremy Crawford's Twitter post and he is the "Sage".
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
For clarity's sake - I assume you mean the OFFICIAL Sage Advice on the D&D website (Sage Advice) rather than the fan-made page that collates tweets/AMA from various folks (Sage Advice)
My link was to Jeremy Crawford's Twitter post and he is the "Sage".
Doesn't make it official. Not all Sage Advice comes from him either. He's appointed to clarify things but for making things official through the proper D&D Sage Advice it is checked with the whole design team or at least the designer responsible for that content, which in this case was not Jeremy Crawford.
Doesn't make it official. Not all Sage Advice comes from him either. He's appointed to clarify things but for making things official through the proper D&D Sage Advice it is checked with the whole design team or at least the designer responsible for that content, which in this case was not Jeremy Crawford.
Eh? Jeremy's the only person that makes official rulings. He gives rulings based on what's printed on the page, not designer intent, so why would he need to check with anyone else?
Doesn't make it official. Not all Sage Advice comes from him either. He's appointed to clarify things but for making things official through the proper D&D Sage Advice it is checked with the whole design team or at least the designer responsible for that content, which in this case was not Jeremy Crawford.
Eh? Jeremy's the only person that makes official rulings. He gives rulings based on what's printed on the page, not designer intent, so why would he need to check with anyone else?
He is not the font of all knowledge and does not have authority to say "this is the rule because I said so" - he is responsible for Sage Advice, yes, it is he who clarifies rules and whatnot, gets the answers, collates them and organises the Sage Advice releases.
However, since part of Sage Advice IS actually about Rules As Intended by creators he would need to check with the designers what their intention was and compare their intention to what was written so that if a RAW did not convey the RAI they can discuss this and possibly change it or flag for rewrite in a future Errata release.
His tweets are not rulings or official errata. They are just his tweets and uses them as an easy way to clarify things quickly, but this is done quickly and mistake can be made or there can be a lack of detail.
D&D Beyond are conveying this content as through the public license and as a retailer of content licenses. To make corrections they will need more than a tweet.
Monster Manual says only Legendary creatures have Lair Actions. The dragon section in the Monster Manual says ALL dragons have Lair Actions. This means, since young dragons and wyrmlings have Lair Actions and only Legendary creatures have these then young dragons and wyrmlings must be Legendary creatures. This is what the MM says. This is RAW.
His tweet says differently. So, either he made a mistake or the Monster Manual is incorrect and will need to be corrected in Errata. Or there's something else at play causing the confusion. Or he's just going by RAI.
He is not the font of all knowledge and does not have authority to say "this is the rule because I said so"
That's exactly what being the Lead Rules Designer and official rules sage means. He's the final arbiter on "here's what these lines of text are supposed to mean".
His tweets are not rulings or official errata. They are just his tweets and uses them as an easy way to clarify things quickly, but this is done quickly and mistake can be made or there can be a lack of detail.
Explain this text in Sage Advice Compendium then:
Official Rulings
Official rulings on how to interpret rules are made here in the Sage Advice Compendium. The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice. One exception: the game’s lead rules developer, Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford on Twitter), can make official rulings and does so in this document and on Twitter.
Just re-read the text in both the compendium and the hardcopy MM - I think the wording of the various ages of dragons and their lairs/regional effects is deliberate:
For example:
Quote from Black Dragon Lair Actions »
Lair Actions
On initiative count 20 (losing initiative ties), the dragon takes a lair action to cause one of the following effects; the dragon can’t use the same effect two rounds in a row:
However the Regional effects are:
Quote from Black Dragon Regional Effects »
Regional Effects
The region containing a legendary black dragon’s lair is warped by the dragon’s magic, which creates one or more of the following effects:
In my eyes this makes sense. The lair is where the dragon lives, and will be protected as such regardless of its age. As it grows to adulthood, it's influence expands to include effects on the region around it's lair. In none of the other legendary creature Regional Effects tables does it mention a legendary creature (eg Lich just says Lich).
Therefore, only the adult and ancient dragons are classed as legendary creatures, but ALL dragons have lairs.
A legendary creature can do things that ordinary creatures can't. It can take special actions outside its turn, and it might exert magical influence for miles around.
If a creature assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a spell, it doesn't gain that form's legendary actions, lair actions, or regional effects.
From this we can learn that a Legendary Creature can take actions outside its turn (Legendary Actions, Lair Actions) and affect the region around it (Regional Effects).
We can say that from this Legendary Actions, Lair Actions and Regional Effects are traits specifically belonging to Legendary Creatures. It can have one, two or all three of these. If it has one it is a Legendary Creature.
And while I will not quote the entire page, I will state that nowhere, in the entire Monster Manual, aside from this quoted by does it say anything else about what a Legendary Creature is. At all. This is it. This is everything. So, if a creature has Lair Actions which is specifically defined as a trait of a Legendary Creature then this means a creature with a Lair Action is a Legendary Creature. Likewise, if had Legendary Actions or Regional Effects it would also be considered a Legendary Creature.
There is nothing, anywhere, that says ONLY Legendary Actions make a creature Legendary. These are listed only as one of three traits Legendary Creatures have. A creature need not have all 3, or a specific 1, it just needs at least 1. The fact Legendary Actions are called "Legendary" is fluff, because there are creatures with Legendary Resistances that are not actually Legendary Creatures and Legendary Resistances, despite many creatures having them, are not defined as a Legendary Creature defining trait.
A Legendary Creature's Lair
A legendary creature might have a section describing its lair and the special effects it can create while there, either by act of will or simply by being present. Such a section applies only to a legendary creature that spends a great deal of time in its lair.
Lair Actions
If a legendary creature has lair actions, it can use them to harness the ambient magic in its lair. On initiative count 20 (losing all initiative ties), it can use one of its lair action options. It can't do so while incapacitated or otherwise unable to take actions. If surprised, it can't use one until after its first turn in the combat.
Again, see how it says Legendary creatures have Lair Actions.
I think this sufficiently drives home the point that Legendary Actions Or Lair Actions or Regional Effects = Legendary Creature.
Lair Actions and Regional Effects are not listed in monster stat blocks due to them being complicated. Legendary Actions, if it has any, are listed in the stat block because they are simpler to convey and tie directly into the normal actions the creature can take (a legendary action is typically a normal action it gets to do outside of its turn so it makes sense to list them together).
In the write up for dragons in the Monster Manual it states all dragons have dangerous lairs. In the specific dragon type's write up (e.g. black dragon, as quoted/referenced above by woodja) it details that "<colour> dragon" has Lair Actions. It does not state, anywhere that this only applies to dragons of certain ages. All dragons, of any age, have lair actions.
--
If you believe they are not legendary creatures and shouldn't have lair actions as the OP states please, if you can, answer the following:
1. Where in the section defining Legendary Creatures does it state that out of the three traits found in Legendary Creatures that it must have the Legendary Actions? Or where does it state it must have all 3? Quotes, please.
2. The section on dragons clearly indicate that all dragons, of any age, have lair actions. Can you state where it specifically says only Adult and older dragons have them? Quotes please.
3. If you cannot provide the quotes for #1 or #2, do you have anything, at all to support your agreement with the Original Poster that D&D Beyond should remove Lair Actions from Wyrmling and Young Adult dragons? By support I mean some quote from the Monster Manual not just your opinion/loose interpretation. Actual quotes, please.
Only legendary creatures have lairs or regional effects. Wyrmlings and Young dragons are not legendary creatures and so their MM entries should not include the regional and lair effects. That is giving people the impression that they should have these things.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
I would not say big, huge, massive, major error. The truth is that there is no clear definition of what a legendary creature is. Moreover, Volo's Guide to Monster set a precedent on lair actions and regional effects to hags, which are relatively low CR.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/monsters#LegendaryCreatures
And there absolutely is a clear definition of what a legendary creature is: it has legendary actions.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
I don't see the definition of legendary creature as having legendary actions. The definition provided by the MM is:
So, if the definition of legendary creature is that "can take special actions outside their turns", it qualifies both legendary and lair actions. A legendary creature can have lair but not legendary actions.
I think you need to learn what the words Big, Huge, Massive and Major mean as you are using them incorrectly. Or you're overusing hyperbole for some humorous effect I don't get.
The creatures in question are legendary creatures according to the Monster Manual definition.
Even if they are not the Monster Manual gives them the lair actions as detailed on page 86 and this has not been changed in any errata.
It is therefore not an error, of any size, for the Monster Manual content on D&D Beyond to give them lair actions, it is just following the book.
Even if you disagree with the decision for them to have these lair actions that is a discussion for a different forum (this one is for bugs and getting help, not personal opinions on a book's content). D&D Beyond are not responsible for what Wizards of the Coast publish. Even if they should not have lair actions in your personal opinion this is only your preference, not an error.
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This is a failure on the organisation of the Monster Manual then. The Monster Manual states any creature with a lair action is "legendary" and the sections on dragons imply all dragons have lair actions because it is listed for the overall dragon not the age (wyrmling, young, adult, ancient). However, there is a sentence in that lair section stating a "legendary dragon". Based off JC's twitter I can only assume this must mean then only those with legendary actions in the stat block are considered legendary. Although, the details on "lair actions" on Page 11 signify ANY creature with lair actions are legendary.
It does not state anywhere that to qualify as legendary a creature must have legendary actions.
So either JC is contradicting the MM or the MM was written wrong.
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https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/993370318247899136
So this will be fixed soon, right?
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
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For clarity's sake - I assume you mean the OFFICIAL Sage Advice on the D&D website (Sage Advice) rather than the fan-made page that collates tweets/AMA from various folks (Sage Advice)
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Missed that in Sage Advice, fair point.
Still doesn't change his tweet is lacking about why MM says all dragons are legendary and he says they're not.
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Just re-read the text in both the compendium and the hardcopy MM - I think the wording of the various ages of dragons and their lairs/regional effects is deliberate:
For example:
However the Regional effects are:
In my eyes this makes sense. The lair is where the dragon lives, and will be protected as such regardless of its age. As it grows to adulthood, it's influence expands to include effects on the region around it's lair. In none of the other legendary creature Regional Effects tables does it mention a legendary creature (eg Lich just says Lich).
Therefore, only the adult and ancient dragons are classed as legendary creatures, but ALL dragons have lairs.
Obviously, this is just my interpretation.
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From this we can learn that a Legendary Creature can take actions outside its turn (Legendary Actions, Lair Actions) and affect the region around it (Regional Effects).
We can say that from this Legendary Actions, Lair Actions and Regional Effects are traits specifically belonging to Legendary Creatures. It can have one, two or all three of these. If it has one it is a Legendary Creature.
And while I will not quote the entire page, I will state that nowhere, in the entire Monster Manual, aside from this quoted by does it say anything else about what a Legendary Creature is. At all. This is it. This is everything. So, if a creature has Lair Actions which is specifically defined as a trait of a Legendary Creature then this means a creature with a Lair Action is a Legendary Creature. Likewise, if had Legendary Actions or Regional Effects it would also be considered a Legendary Creature.
There is nothing, anywhere, that says ONLY Legendary Actions make a creature Legendary. These are listed only as one of three traits Legendary Creatures have. A creature need not have all 3, or a specific 1, it just needs at least 1. The fact Legendary Actions are called "Legendary" is fluff, because there are creatures with Legendary Resistances that are not actually Legendary Creatures and Legendary Resistances, despite many creatures having them, are not defined as a Legendary Creature defining trait.
Again, see how it says Legendary creatures have Lair Actions.
I think this sufficiently drives home the point that Legendary Actions Or Lair Actions or Regional Effects = Legendary Creature.
Lair Actions and Regional Effects are not listed in monster stat blocks due to them being complicated. Legendary Actions, if it has any, are listed in the stat block because they are simpler to convey and tie directly into the normal actions the creature can take (a legendary action is typically a normal action it gets to do outside of its turn so it makes sense to list them together).
In the write up for dragons in the Monster Manual it states all dragons have dangerous lairs. In the specific dragon type's write up (e.g. black dragon, as quoted/referenced above by woodja) it details that "<colour> dragon" has Lair Actions. It does not state, anywhere that this only applies to dragons of certain ages. All dragons, of any age, have lair actions.
--
If you believe they are not legendary creatures and shouldn't have lair actions as the OP states please, if you can, answer the following:
1. Where in the section defining Legendary Creatures does it state that out of the three traits found in Legendary Creatures that it must have the Legendary Actions? Or where does it state it must have all 3? Quotes, please.
2. The section on dragons clearly indicate that all dragons, of any age, have lair actions. Can you state where it specifically says only Adult and older dragons have them? Quotes please.
3. If you cannot provide the quotes for #1 or #2, do you have anything, at all to support your agreement with the Original Poster that D&D Beyond should remove Lair Actions from Wyrmling and Young Adult dragons? By support I mean some quote from the Monster Manual not just your opinion/loose interpretation. Actual quotes, please.
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