I think the point is moot. The success of DDB seems to indicate that their pricing model (and WotC's since the price of the PHB on Roll20 is the same) is working just fine for them. It's not going to change.
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
For someone like me who just wants digital rulesbooks and nothing else, I don't want all hoops D&D Beyond makes me just through to use their rulebooks. GIve me a PDF or an ePub and let me move on with my life.
I NEED offline access on my computer. I want to be able to read my rulebooks on my tablet with the built in eReader software. Just sell me something on dndclassics.com and be done with it already.
I think what Curse did with the digital version of the rules, is amazing. The layout is perfect for a tablet and a phone. Now just make it an ePub3 please.
For someone like me who just wants digital rulesbooks and nothing else, I don't want all hoops D&D Beyond makes me just through to use their rulebooks. GIve me a PDF or an ePub and let me move on with my life.
I NEED offline access on my computer. I want to be able to read my rulebooks on my tablet with the built in eReader software. Just sell me something on dndclassics.com and be done with it already.
I think what Curse did with the digital version of the rules, is amazing. The layout is perfect for a tablet and a phone. Now just make it an ePub3 please.
Doesn't the app do exactly what you'd need?
Edit: I mean, not on your computer, but on your tablet it would...
The app does do what I need, on my tablet and phone. But:
It doesn't do what I need on the computer, which I use with rulebooks more than my phone or tablet.
The app ensures that I have no control over my own books. Because I need to use their app to read it.
With digital content, you're not buying anything. You're buying a license to allow you to access content. That license can be revoked at any time and for any reason. An offline digital copy ensures the product will survive the whims of WoTC and Curse.
There's a tried and true business model used by tons of RPG makers, even WoTC, where a non-DRMed format such as PDF of ePub is made available for sale with a purchase watermark.
I really don't care what format it's in. I just want it in an offline format that doesn't require a proprietary app to view it.
You use the computer with your rulebooks? Gee I wonder how you do that without buying official resources that you don't want to buy.
You already have an offline format, your books. If you're trying to compare the cost of Beyond to pirated PDFs then we can't help you, and of course judge you for it.
Also there's a variety of ways to run Android apps on a PC, which would get you the offline mode of the app. Just be careful what you use since one android emulator recently got found out for having malware in it...
As a note, Fantasy Grounds can be run offline, but there's some obvious reasons why you wouldn't buy books through that if you're not planning to use Fantasy Grounds.
Why would anyone want to pay $59.99 for the Hard copy of the book, then want to pay the $30 you are charging for the digital copy when they already a copy of the book.
So because you can't personally imagine any possible scenario where this would make logical sense, the entire hobby and it's business management should take only your opinion into account, because you want free digital tools?
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
If you own a hard copy, you aren't paying to buy the digital copy, you already own the "content".
What D&D Beyond is then doing is charging you to use content you already own...not at a reasonable price but full retail digital price and you don't even get a legitimate copy of the Digital copy.
You get permission or a license to use it on their site. Which doesn't justify having to pay full retail digital price for the Content you already own.
I myself do not use digital tools, but with my children out of the household and us still wanting to play together, I have to find a way to do that. We all own Hard copies of the WoTC content. Its discerning that any company than can turn around and charge half of what we already paid for those books just to use the content we already own.
Free is a subjective term based entirely on the circumstances...in this case, you are not asking for free content. As stated in my case I already own the content and can just go to a site like Roll 20 who doesn't require you to purchase not only a membership to have better access to the extremely limited "tools" without "permission" to use their content. But then require you re-purchase content you already paid for.
Its not at all about paying $30.00 dollars for a digital book, its about paying $90.00 dollars for a book you already paid and now have to pay $30.00 dollars just to use the content you already own. Which because you already purchased a full copy of the source material....legally speaking isn't their content its just access to their site forcing you to pay "one-time" fees to unlock content you already own. Which then doesn't justify the $30.00 dollar price tag.
Now if you cannot show proof of ownership, such as a upn code or receipt, than by all means charge the $30.00 dollars, your entitled at that point since you are technically selling them a copy of the book. Hell membership fees I can see, its all data that requires money to operate.
But provide them a copy of the product you are selling. Actually commerce trade law requires that any digital purchase made becomes the property of the person purchasing the digital product. Now Curse isn't doing anything wrong by making it only accessible by having to log into an account and there are ways of storing your content on an offline cache on a computer, a cellphone no....but once they get into the territory of them closing their site down the road and nobody can access their purchased digital content....well then their are some commerce laws being violated...
1. No, you are buying a license for digital media. You may have already purchased a license on physical, printed media. You aren't buying "content" but a license to access WOTC IP. 2. As explained above, this point is now invalid as you do not own a license for digital access. 3. Now you're getting line #1. I hope you're as vehemently protesting iTunes for charging you for digital songs you already own as well. 4. The convenience of the digital world is pressing upon your gaming. Hence is the value D&D Beyond provides. If you don't see that value, you don't have to pay for anything to play. 5. You are free to use whichever platform you find best. D&D Beyond is an option, not a requirement. 6. The licensing costs are for everyone, not only "people who already own the content." You decided to buy physical media, and now you're upset that there's a price tag on digital licenses. This is a capitalistic economy - there is a service provided, people will pay for said service, such is the value of said service. There has been no unjust business practice causing you to purchase physical licenses and not be 'given' digital access. You purchased the access you desired at the time you desired. Now you desire something else. 7. UPNs are not unique, and photos of a receipt are generic and could be passed around. There is no proof of unique ownership. This is an issue to take up with WOTC if change is desired. 8. Actually, this is false. When you purchase pets/mounts/items from Blizzard in World of Warcraft, do you think you legally own those digital assets? No, not even remotely. #8 can be completely disregarded.
If you're hung up on the costs, then gather all the content which you own and enter it all as private homebrew. This charges you nothing extra and you can enjoy all your games with digital access. I can understand the hesitation in entering in all that homebrew, as it will take quite some work/time. This would be the same work/time that Curse should be compensated for in process of doing it for you and being held responsible for it's accessibility.
If the business model turns you off, that's OK too - D&D Beyond may not be for everyone. It is perfectly fine to continue playing with printed media and not use the site. I would imagine that those who get worked up and/or write lengthy posts here DO see the value in D&D Beyond, but only have issue with the price point. Unfortunately, licensing stipulations are also received by WOTC and must be adhered to. It would be fantastic if everyone could play D&D digitally for free, but we're not there yet and some may not be able to afford this luxury.
Many have only purchased books here on D&D Beyond, and they completely love the tools and access they have. I'm not seeing how Curse is responsible for providing free digital licensing because someone paid $90 to "John Doe's Gaming Bookstore." WOTC received royalties from that purchase, but D&D Beyond received nothing. Why would they hand over access to their services, hard work, and maintenance costs? Perhaps one needs to venture back to "John Doe's Gaming Bookstore" or even Wizards of the Coast and demand digital access for the content they paid for. Here on D&D Beyond, they haven't paid for anything.
“ If it doesn't make sense...then why do it...the primary issue here, isn't that its just my opinion, obviously i am not the only person who feels this model is kind of a rip off.”
No you're not the only one. But you are the minority because most of us can understand how basic retail works. This model is the best way they can do it and suits the majority.
“If you own a hard copy, you aren't paying to buy the digital copy, you already own the "content".”
Point of clarification: you own the book and the right to use the contents of the book within suitable reasons. The actual content is not, strictly speaking, yours. It remains copyrighted to Wizards of the Coast. You have have a book with the content and the freedom to use the content offered. You can, if you wanted, write things out from it for personal use and can share the physical book. You cannot, however, publish that content because it's actually not something you own and so publishing it or making it available to everyone else publicly without permission from WotC who are the actual content owners is a violation of copyright law.
What you own is a physical book. You do not own the content. You just own the book which grants you easy access to the content for personal use – much like a license.
“What D&D Beyond is then doing is charging you to use content you already own...not at a reasonable price but full retail digital price and you don't even get a legitimate copy of the Digital copy.”
Again, you do not own the content. What D&D Beyond is doing is charging you for the license rights to access the content in a digital format and for that content to be more easily used for creating characters through their builder. What they charge is less than the physical book cost and is the cheapest available (only exception is currently PHB through Roll20 who are deliberately selling it at a loss to generate more users and subscriptions – which is their way of trying to remain in business given the release of D&D Beyond's far superior character builder).
Buying a book gives you access to the content in physical form and buying on D&D Beyond gives you access to content in digital form. In either case you buy “access”, not necessarily the content. You may own the book but WotC still owns the actual words and images within it. Try to grasp neither of these lets you own the content. You only get access to it. There's no actual different between buying a digital license or buying a book.
Please also realise when you buy things on D&D Beyond that D&D Beyond have to buy the rights to retail it from WotC. So imagine you own a store – you buy merchandise from the wholesalers and stack your shelves. Not only did you have to buy the goods you have to pay for the store costs, utilities, retail license, insurance, staff, equipment, and so on. Some were one-time purchases but many are ongoing costs you have to pay regardless of whether you are doing well or not. These can be considered the costs for making the products available to the public. A customer walks in and wants some of that merchandise. Now, what normally happens is that you would sell the product to them at a markup which means you charge the same cost as it cost you to buy it from wholesale and then you add the markup which is a small amount you hope – with enough sales – to cover the costs of making the products available to the public and hopefully a little extra so that all of this was worth doing. Seems reasonable, doesn't it? Yet, in your business model you would give the customer that product at no cost because they bought a similar one before from somewhere else. How is that profitable? How would you expect to stay in business?
D&D Beyond had to pay for the site, staff, license, servers, internet access, e-merchant services (for online transactions – yes you have to pay to offer online purchasing to your customers), and more. These are the costs in making products available to you. Then they have to buy the licenses for the content you are seeking. They have to pay WotC for each and every one. They have no choice. If they give the content access without paying WotC they are breaking the law. So, do you really think it is reasonable for them to pay for all of this just to give you free digital access because you bought a book from somebody else? How do you suppose D&D Beyond stay in business with such a model?
You bought the book which means WotC got some of that money to grant you 'access' to the content in a 'printed form'. That's what you paid for. Now you want access in digital form. Well, then WotC will want their pay for this new avenue of access. They have that business model to license out their content in a “per access” basis because the costs for each license are chosen to get back everything they paid to make the content and have to keep paying to employ people to maintain things and manage these licenses, arrange events, employ people like Jeremy Crawford to help with rules, generate advertising, make events and so on. They have constant and continuous costs and this model they have ensures the income to sustain it all.
Let's say you bought a novel but it's not looking the best any more and you want a replacement. Do you go to a store and say “replace this for free”? Should the author cover the cost for that replacement? No to both. Just because you bought it once gaining access to that story through that book does not mean you get more copies for free. WotC shouldn't be expected to do the same, either, just because you now want new access through a different method.
“You get permission or a license to use it on their site. Which doesn't justify having to pay full retail digital price for the Content you already own.”
Yes it does justify it for reasons given above and again you do not own the content you own a different means of accessing the content and having it bought it elsewhere does not mean something else has to then pay to give a new form of access to the content to you for free.
“I myself do not use digital tools, but with my children out of the household and us still wanting to play together, I have to find a way to do that. We all own Hard copies of the WoTC content. Its discerning that any company than can turn around and charge half of what we already paid for those books just to use the content we already own.”
Again you do not own content and if you want to get convenient access to that content through a new method you pay again for that new method. If you bought a game from X-Box Live for the X-Box One you can't then expect a free copy to also play on Playstation 4.
Also, you actually DON'T HAVE TO PAY A CENT / PENNY! Seriously, why do you keep harping on that you “must”. D&D Beyond allows you to homebrew / recreate anything. All that access you bought in books? You can use D&D Beyond builders to recreate the content and granting you digital version. Yes, it will take time, but if you don't want to buy it officially... Oh, and anything you homebrew like this you can share in your campaign at no cost.
Because it is a homebrew private use D&D Beyond do not need to buy a separate license for you and therefore do not charge you for doing this.
“Free is a subjective term based entirely on the circumstances...in this case, you are not asking for free content. As stated in my case I already own the content and can just go to a site like Roll 20 who doesn't require you to purchase not only a membership to have better access to the extremely limited "tools" without "permission" to use their content. But then require you re-purchase content you already paid for.”
If you prefer Roll20 go to them, then. But Roll20 has less options for creating homebrew. You can create homebrew and copy any content you have bought physical access to on a “per character sheet” basis. It's also very awkward to use by comparison. Let's say you make a shadow sorcerer and somebody else in your campaign wants to make a shadow sorcerer you both have to homebrew your copy from scratch. On D&D Beyond you can make the homebrew shadow sorcerer subclass and then any character you make and any character anyone else in your campaign makes can select it easily.
You do not need a membership for any of this so I have no idea what silly nonsense you're spouting. Any homebrew thing you make (which can include copies of content you have paid to access more conveniently) is shared with everyone else in your campaign. Roll20 cannot do this and their homebrew tools are less powerful. The tools you get on D&D Beyond are the same whether you are a free member or have a subscription. A subscription is for different things like more character slots for your personal use (no impact on the slots available for a campaign) and the ability to add other people's homebrew outside of a campaign and to share your homebrew with the community (for things that are not recreated copies from the official content). I think it's fair and a month's sub is like the price of a coffee at Starbucks. There is a higher tier but this is to let your campaign members have access to get access to any official content you have bought access to. Roll20 also offer something similar but at a much higher subscription cost.
“Its not at all about paying $30.00 dollars for a digital book, its about paying $90.00 dollars for a book you already paid and now have to pay $30.00 dollars just to use the content you already own. Which because you already purchased a full copy of the source material....legally speaking isn't their content its just access to their site forcing you to pay "one-time" fees to unlock content you already own. Which then doesn't justify the $30.00 dollar price tag.”
None of the individual licenses or subscriptions offered through D&D Beyond come to $90. You can also buy some of the content access piecemeal like a certain subclass or race etc if you do not want to homebrew it. So, I cannot fathom where you are getting this $90 from. You paid for a physical book which grants access to content in printed form. D&D Beyond offers you less than $30 for a digital version of a book which grants access to the content in digital form. That's it. All the site tools and features are otherwise free. As for that content – again you do not own the content, you bought a form of access, and D&D Beyond offers a different form of access. I've covered this in detail above as to why it is justified. Especially since you can homebrew copies for use in the builder or for sharing with campaign members entirely for free.
“Now if you cannot show proof of ownership, such as a upn code or receipt, than by all means charge the $30.00 dollars, your entitled at that point since you are technically selling them a copy of the book. Hell membership fees I can see, its all data that requires money to operate. “
As mentioned, D&D Beyond have to pay for the license to give to you regardless of whether you have purchased it elsewhere. Even if you show receipts or UPN you are showing you bought it from a different company. Why should D&D Beyond, who did not receive any of that money you spent on buying that book, have to pay for a license and give it to you for nothing? Why should WotC give you more licenses and means of access to their content just because you bought one book? Did buying that book mean that WotC must give you free copies whenever you want? No. So why should D&D Beyond give you digital licenses for nothing? This would bankrupt them and send them into debt. I do not think it unreasonable that they avoid this.
Do you not have any understanding how business works?
“But provide them a copy of the product you are selling. Actually commerce trade law requires that any digital purchase made becomes the property of the person purchasing the digital product. Now Curse isn't doing anything wrong by making it only accessible by having to log into an account and there are ways of storing your content on an offline cache on a computer, a cellphone no....but once they get into the territory of them closing their site down the road and nobody can access their purchased digital content....well then their are some commerce laws being violated... “
What is being sold is a means of accessing content copyrighted to Wizards of the Coasts through a digital medium as stored by the website. If the website can no longer support this and must close you lose that access as detailed in the terms and conditions of sale you agreed to when making your account and purchase. This is in FULL COMPLIANCE with the law. What you buy is a right (license) to access the content as stored on the website. The actual content stored does not become owned by you nor is it owned by D&D Beyond or Curse. The content remains the copyrighted property of Wizards of the Coast and D&D Beyond store this data and license access out through agreements made with Wizards of the Coast.
You are not buying content. You are buying a license of access to stored data.
They are in compliance with the law which you clearly do not understand. And this is offered through their website rather than through a downloadable PDF because of restrictions WotC, the actual owners of the content, have put in place. Do not blame D&D Beyond for things they cannot control.
My conclusion of your post is you haven't the faintest idea how business works (or the law, apparently).
So you can either:
~ Go read up on business and law. ~ Buy the licenses to digital access. ~ Homebrew copies to use for free. ~ Go harass the other companies, including Roll20, who also charge for digital access to WotC content.
Or any combination of the above. But I guarantee you that whining here about not getting free things you're actually not entitled to is not going to go well here and nobody who understands the business and legalities involved here will agree with you.
@Omeggidon this point made by Sedge is an important one, and one that I think is often overlooked and misunderstood.
1. No, you are buying a license for digital media. You may have already purchased a license on physical, printed media. You aren't buying "content" but a license to access WOTC IP.
When you buy a physical book, any physical book, what you "own" is the physical thing, that is, the paper, and cardstock that make up the pages and cover.
You do not own the content that is inside. The content inside that physical book is owned by the author or publisher (copyright) and in some cases includes trademarked IP (ie. Beholder).
This distinction is important because it is the reason you are notallowed to legally republish the content of the book. You bought a physical PHB, but that doesn't give you the right to scan it, or type it all out, and then reprint and give-away (or sell) in any other form. You can sell the book itself, or lend it out, but you have no legal right to the content within the book.
This is what Sedge means when Sedge says that when you buy a physical book you are effectively buying a license to access the content of the book. The paper is the license.
For what it's worth, anyone can buy the Physical PHB on Amazon for almost half-price, and combined with the DDB version end up paying only about $8 more than buying just the physical book from a brick and mortar store. If you buy the DDB PHB compendium instead (or wait for a coupon code) you can actually get a physical and digital version for the same or less than the cost of the physical book from a book store.
That other companies sell PDFs isn't relevant. The actions of those companies do not confer any sort of obligation on to WotC.
The whole, big fat problem here is that people don't understand why they can't get things for free.
Fixed that for ya ;)
(The rest is geared at the other guy, just want to make sure you know I'm not replying to you)
I think the main problem here is entitlement more than anything else. One can make all the arguments they want about being allowed to use the content as they see fit, but that does not permit you to, say, go into Barnes & Noble, take a PHB off the shelf and then loudly yell "I BOUGHT THIS ON AMAZON ALREADY" when they stop you from leaving. Now see how ridiculous that sounds? That's you. That's what you're saying you should be allowed to do here. You're not.
The whole, big fat problem here is that people don't understand why they can't get things for free.
Fixed that for ya ;)
Thank mate ;) I still believe in the capacity of the human mind to change their views if presented with facts and compelling evidence their ideas are incorrect or inapplicable (not saying wrong).
I think the main problem here is entitlement more than anything else. One can make all the arguments they want about being allowed to use the content as they see fit, but that does not permit you to, say, go into Barnes & Noble, take a PHB off the shelf and then loudly yell "I BOUGHT THIS ON AMAZON ALREADY" when they stop you from leaving. Now see how ridiculous that sounds? That's you. That's what you're saying you should be allowed to do here. You're not.
I came to realise that the "eintitlement" as it is often referred to is nothing more that feeling betrayed. They see this amazing new service, they think it will solve all their problems, only to find out that thy'd have to: A) buy the digital version of the content OR B) spend quite some time introducing the information contained in the content they might (or might not) have in physical form through the Homebrew system to use the tools at their maximum potential (important distinction: the tools ARE effectively free, they are only limited in what the users can do with them based on the content they have unlocked/homebrewed).
This frustration leads to the demand to be given the content for free, which is a hard feeling to make go away, as incorrect or ill-informed as it is. Since launch I have been spending quite some time (on-and-off and with various levels of sarcasm) trying to make people making these claims understand why it can't be done... it is almost a mantra at this point XD
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
My intent is not insult. More power to you for purchasing both digital and physical copies of books. But in reality you aren't buying the digital books. As they do not give you a copy of the digital books. Go to google play or amazon, purchase a book. You own that book, not the license to use its content on a website.
I still believe in the capacity of the human mind to change their views if presented with facts and compelling evidence their ideas are incorrect or inapplicable (not saying wrong).
Dunning and Kruger want to have a chat with you about cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias...
I still believe in the capacity of the human mind to change their views if presented with facts and compelling evidence their ideas are incorrect or inapplicable (not saying wrong).
Dunning and Kruger want to have a chat with you about cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias...
I never said it is actually possible, just that I am still naive enough to believe it is :P (I've had my good share of direct proof of the contrary, which should point me in the direction that I am OBSCENELY wrong based on the very fact that I keep trying... but that's the beauty of being human, I suppose... ... ... Hi, I am LeK, a walking, babbling nonsense, glad to make your acquaintance :) )
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
"Once a person purchases the content they should be allowed to use that content on any site in partnership with WoTC."
This is not up to D&D Beyond. That is up to WotC. This site is not a scam, as you claim, for following the rules as set by WotC.
"You are still completely missing the point. How many times do i have to say, it has nothing to do with wanting to get the service for free. Yes, D&DB should be able to obtain some monetary compensation for the service they provide. But charging each and every person the same amount, even if they had purchased a physical copy of the source material...at full retail "digital" price...is kind of absurd. It doesn't mean you are an stupid for doing it, but it doesn't mean they are actually be reasonable for charging that way."
They charge what they must to cover the license they pay to WotC and the costs of making it available to you. Which actually works out cheaper than buying a book in a store.
".it doesn't mean its actually good "business" its just taking advantage of those who are willing to actually do it."
Business and morality are the not same thing, by the way. Good business is what makes you the most money for the least effort/cost. Just putting that out there. Anyway, they charge the absolutely minimum they can to cover the cost of license, making it available, financing other services etc and something (a very small amount) on top for themselves. It's not D&D Beyond's fault if you have bought books elsewhere, they cannot discount it without losing out. And why should they lose out?
If you think it should be cheaper go to WotC who set the license prices. D&D Beyond owe you nothing. They are selling a product and at a reasonable price. If you want it buy it, if you don't want it then don't buy it, and if you have access elsewhere then just homebrew for free.
How you think any of this is a scam is beyond me. They're offering better and more than any other competitor out there.
Everything is easily referenced. This is the modern age, where digital information is beyond easy to access. Referenced material is common sense, please educate us all on information that a well titled google search wouldn't come up with....nothing.....you want case law? I know how to access that....do you? If your going to make a comment like that i'm expecting freaking rainbows full of case law and case specific text. Please educate us on your...how many years of law?
Other to now insult me what purpose does your response actually serve?
I believe we should go back to his previous response of his goal being to annoy you, which he seems to be starting to work (might be wrong, though).
There is one fundamental flaw, imho, in the legal angle: none of us have access to the license agreement between WotC and Curse, and unless someone is willing to start a case against them, no one outside of the interested parties of the agreement will ever see it. Due to this, any reference you or anyone might come up with (for one side or the other of the argument) is completely useless, as they would be based on things that might be VERY different from the actual contents of the license agreement between WotC and Curse.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Everyone with no avatar and a low post count with only posts in this thread is an IP lawyer yet gets fundamental facts wrong
The same people want to not pay for this site but also find value in its features and don't get why this is hilariously hypocritical
They also don't like to put in the same effort that D&D Beyond is charging for to make use of the site completely free because...laziness...entitlement...imaginary legal rights they claim to have. Seriously, just type out all the content of the books! Oh wait, that's hard and tedious? It's almost like you consider your time valuable...hmmm...
People claiming they paid $60 for the books to sound more righteous when the books are regularly 40-60% off the MSRP at launch for all the books...
People trying to cure idiocy and ignorance in an endless and futile struggle against entitlement. (I still don't know why I keep responding here, so I'm in this group)
Everything is easily referenced. This is the modern age, where digital information is beyond easy to access. Referenced material is common sense, please educate us all on information that a well titled google search wouldn't come up with....nothing.....you want case law? I know how to access that....do you? If your going to make a comment like that i'm expecting freaking rainbows full of case law and case specific text. Please educate us on your...how many years of law?
Other to now insult me what purpose does your response actually serve?
I recall that there was someone, using a different account, who gave an almost word for word similar response to being called out about their (lack) of knowledge about IP law, some time ago. I think maybe even in this very thread...
Oh, and you don't get to take the high ground when you've been insulting everyone here since you started posting, either for their choice to pay for DDB at all, or their choice to buy the physical products as well as the digital, or the developers and staff here by calling them rip-off merchants.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
Everyone with no avatar and a low post count with only posts in this thread is an IP lawyer yet gets fundamental facts wrong
The same people want to not pay for this site but also find value in its features and don't get why this is hilariously hypocritical
They also don't like to put in the same effort that D&D Beyond is charging for to make use of the site completely free because...laziness...entitlement...imaginary legal rights they claim to have. Seriously, just type out all the content of the books! Oh wait, that's hard and tedious? It's almost like you consider your time valuable...hmmm...
People claiming they paid $60 for the books to sound more righteous when the books are regularly 40-60% off the MSRP at launch for all the books...
People trying to cure idiocy and ignorance in an endless and futile struggle against entitlement. (I still don't know why I keep responding here, so I'm in this group)
You forgot the people actively trying to annoy the first point people, they are few, but they're around.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
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I think the point is moot. The success of DDB seems to indicate that their pricing model (and WotC's since the price of the PHB on Roll20 is the same) is working just fine for them. It's not going to change.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
D&D Beyond Is just too much.
For someone like me who just wants digital rulesbooks and nothing else, I don't want all hoops D&D Beyond makes me just through to use their rulebooks. GIve me a PDF or an ePub and let me move on with my life.
I NEED offline access on my computer. I want to be able to read my rulebooks on my tablet with the built in eReader software. Just sell me something on dndclassics.com and be done with it already.
I think what Curse did with the digital version of the rules, is amazing. The layout is perfect for a tablet and a phone. Now just make it an ePub3 please.
Doesn't the app do exactly what you'd need?
Edit: I mean, not on your computer, but on your tablet it would...
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
The app does do what I need, on my tablet and phone. But:
With digital content, you're not buying anything. You're buying a license to allow you to access content. That license can be revoked at any time and for any reason. An offline digital copy ensures the product will survive the whims of WoTC and Curse.
There's a tried and true business model used by tons of RPG makers, even WoTC, where a non-DRMed format such as PDF of ePub is made available for sale with a purchase watermark.
I really don't care what format it's in. I just want it in an offline format that doesn't require a proprietary app to view it.
You use the computer with your rulebooks? Gee I wonder how you do that without buying official resources that you don't want to buy.
You already have an offline format, your books. If you're trying to compare the cost of Beyond to pirated PDFs then we can't help you, and of course judge you for it.
Also there's a variety of ways to run Android apps on a PC, which would get you the offline mode of the app. Just be careful what you use since one android emulator recently got found out for having malware in it...
As a note, Fantasy Grounds can be run offline, but there's some obvious reasons why you wouldn't buy books through that if you're not planning to use Fantasy Grounds.
So because you can't personally imagine any possible scenario where this would make logical sense, the entire hobby and it's business management should take only your opinion into account, because you want free digital tools?
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
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Moderator1. No, you are buying a license for digital media. You may have already purchased a license on physical, printed media. You aren't buying "content" but a license to access WOTC IP.
2. As explained above, this point is now invalid as you do not own a license for digital access.
3. Now you're getting line #1. I hope you're as vehemently protesting iTunes for charging you for digital songs you already own as well.
4. The convenience of the digital world is pressing upon your gaming. Hence is the value D&D Beyond provides. If you don't see that value, you don't have to pay for anything to play.
5. You are free to use whichever platform you find best. D&D Beyond is an option, not a requirement.
6. The licensing costs are for everyone, not only "people who already own the content." You decided to buy physical media, and now you're upset that there's a price tag on digital licenses. This is a capitalistic economy - there is a service provided, people will pay for said service, such is the value of said service. There has been no unjust business practice causing you to purchase physical licenses and not be 'given' digital access. You purchased the access you desired at the time you desired. Now you desire something else.
7. UPNs are not unique, and photos of a receipt are generic and could be passed around. There is no proof of unique ownership. This is an issue to take up with WOTC if change is desired.
8. Actually, this is false. When you purchase pets/mounts/items from Blizzard in World of Warcraft, do you think you legally own those digital assets? No, not even remotely. #8 can be completely disregarded.
If you're hung up on the costs, then gather all the content which you own and enter it all as private homebrew. This charges you nothing extra and you can enjoy all your games with digital access. I can understand the hesitation in entering in all that homebrew, as it will take quite some work/time. This would be the same work/time that Curse should be compensated for in process of doing it for you and being held responsible for it's accessibility.
If the business model turns you off, that's OK too - D&D Beyond may not be for everyone. It is perfectly fine to continue playing with printed media and not use the site. I would imagine that those who get worked up and/or write lengthy posts here DO see the value in D&D Beyond, but only have issue with the price point. Unfortunately, licensing stipulations are also received by WOTC and must be adhered to. It would be fantastic if everyone could play D&D digitally for free, but we're not there yet and some may not be able to afford this luxury.
Many have only purchased books here on D&D Beyond, and they completely love the tools and access they have. I'm not seeing how Curse is responsible for providing free digital licensing because someone paid $90 to "John Doe's Gaming Bookstore." WOTC received royalties from that purchase, but D&D Beyond received nothing. Why would they hand over access to their services, hard work, and maintenance costs? Perhaps one needs to venture back to "John Doe's Gaming Bookstore" or even Wizards of the Coast and demand digital access for the content they paid for. Here on D&D Beyond, they haven't paid for anything.
[ Site Rules & Guidelines ] --- [ Homebrew Rules & Guidelines ]
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No you're not the only one. But you are the minority because most of us can understand how basic retail works. This model is the best way they can do it and suits the majority.
Point of clarification: you own the book and the right to use the contents of the book within suitable reasons. The actual content is not, strictly speaking, yours. It remains copyrighted to Wizards of the Coast. You have have a book with the content and the freedom to use the content offered. You can, if you wanted, write things out from it for personal use and can share the physical book. You cannot, however, publish that content because it's actually not something you own and so publishing it or making it available to everyone else publicly without permission from WotC who are the actual content owners is a violation of copyright law.
What you own is a physical book. You do not own the content. You just own the book which grants you easy access to the content for personal use – much like a license.
Again, you do not own the content. What D&D Beyond is doing is charging you for the license rights to access the content in a digital format and for that content to be more easily used for creating characters through their builder. What they charge is less than the physical book cost and is the cheapest available (only exception is currently PHB through Roll20 who are deliberately selling it at a loss to generate more users and subscriptions – which is their way of trying to remain in business given the release of D&D Beyond's far superior character builder).
Buying a book gives you access to the content in physical form and buying on D&D Beyond gives you access to content in digital form. In either case you buy “access”, not necessarily the content. You may own the book but WotC still owns the actual words and images within it. Try to grasp neither of these lets you own the content. You only get access to it. There's no actual different between buying a digital license or buying a book.
Please also realise when you buy things on D&D Beyond that D&D Beyond have to buy the rights to retail it from WotC. So imagine you own a store – you buy merchandise from the wholesalers and stack your shelves. Not only did you have to buy the goods you have to pay for the store costs, utilities, retail license, insurance, staff, equipment, and so on. Some were one-time purchases but many are ongoing costs you have to pay regardless of whether you are doing well or not. These can be considered the costs for making the products available to the public. A customer walks in and wants some of that merchandise. Now, what normally happens is that you would sell the product to them at a markup which means you charge the same cost as it cost you to buy it from wholesale and then you add the markup which is a small amount you hope – with enough sales – to cover the costs of making the products available to the public and hopefully a little extra so that all of this was worth doing. Seems reasonable, doesn't it? Yet, in your business model you would give the customer that product at no cost because they bought a similar one before from somewhere else. How is that profitable? How would you expect to stay in business?
D&D Beyond had to pay for the site, staff, license, servers, internet access, e-merchant services (for online transactions – yes you have to pay to offer online purchasing to your customers), and more. These are the costs in making products available to you. Then they have to buy the licenses for the content you are seeking. They have to pay WotC for each and every one. They have no choice. If they give the content access without paying WotC they are breaking the law. So, do you really think it is reasonable for them to pay for all of this just to give you free digital access because you bought a book from somebody else? How do you suppose D&D Beyond stay in business with such a model?
You bought the book which means WotC got some of that money to grant you 'access' to the content in a 'printed form'. That's what you paid for. Now you want access in digital form. Well, then WotC will want their pay for this new avenue of access. They have that business model to license out their content in a “per access” basis because the costs for each license are chosen to get back everything they paid to make the content and have to keep paying to employ people to maintain things and manage these licenses, arrange events, employ people like Jeremy Crawford to help with rules, generate advertising, make events and so on. They have constant and continuous costs and this model they have ensures the income to sustain it all.
Let's say you bought a novel but it's not looking the best any more and you want a replacement. Do you go to a store and say “replace this for free”? Should the author cover the cost for that replacement? No to both. Just because you bought it once gaining access to that story through that book does not mean you get more copies for free. WotC shouldn't be expected to do the same, either, just because you now want new access through a different method.
Yes it does justify it for reasons given above and again you do not own the content you own a different means of accessing the content and having it bought it elsewhere does not mean something else has to then pay to give a new form of access to the content to you for free.
Again you do not own content and if you want to get convenient access to that content through a new method you pay again for that new method. If you bought a game from X-Box Live for the X-Box One you can't then expect a free copy to also play on Playstation 4.
Also, you actually DON'T HAVE TO PAY A CENT / PENNY! Seriously, why do you keep harping on that you “must”. D&D Beyond allows you to homebrew / recreate anything. All that access you bought in books? You can use D&D Beyond builders to recreate the content and granting you digital version. Yes, it will take time, but if you don't want to buy it officially... Oh, and anything you homebrew like this you can share in your campaign at no cost.
Because it is a homebrew private use D&D Beyond do not need to buy a separate license for you and therefore do not charge you for doing this.
If you prefer Roll20 go to them, then. But Roll20 has less options for creating homebrew. You can create homebrew and copy any content you have bought physical access to on a “per character sheet” basis. It's also very awkward to use by comparison. Let's say you make a shadow sorcerer and somebody else in your campaign wants to make a shadow sorcerer you both have to homebrew your copy from scratch. On D&D Beyond you can make the homebrew shadow sorcerer subclass and then any character you make and any character anyone else in your campaign makes can select it easily.
You do not need a membership for any of this so I have no idea what silly nonsense you're spouting. Any homebrew thing you make (which can include copies of content you have paid to access more conveniently) is shared with everyone else in your campaign. Roll20 cannot do this and their homebrew tools are less powerful. The tools you get on D&D Beyond are the same whether you are a free member or have a subscription. A subscription is for different things like more character slots for your personal use (no impact on the slots available for a campaign) and the ability to add other people's homebrew outside of a campaign and to share your homebrew with the community (for things that are not recreated copies from the official content). I think it's fair and a month's sub is like the price of a coffee at Starbucks. There is a higher tier but this is to let your campaign members have access to get access to any official content you have bought access to. Roll20 also offer something similar but at a much higher subscription cost.
None of the individual licenses or subscriptions offered through D&D Beyond come to $90. You can also buy some of the content access piecemeal like a certain subclass or race etc if you do not want to homebrew it. So, I cannot fathom where you are getting this $90 from. You paid for a physical book which grants access to content in printed form. D&D Beyond offers you less than $30 for a digital version of a book which grants access to the content in digital form. That's it. All the site tools and features are otherwise free. As for that content – again you do not own the content, you bought a form of access, and D&D Beyond offers a different form of access. I've covered this in detail above as to why it is justified. Especially since you can homebrew copies for use in the builder or for sharing with campaign members entirely for free.
As mentioned, D&D Beyond have to pay for the license to give to you regardless of whether you have purchased it elsewhere. Even if you show receipts or UPN you are showing you bought it from a different company. Why should D&D Beyond, who did not receive any of that money you spent on buying that book, have to pay for a license and give it to you for nothing? Why should WotC give you more licenses and means of access to their content just because you bought one book? Did buying that book mean that WotC must give you free copies whenever you want? No. So why should D&D Beyond give you digital licenses for nothing? This would bankrupt them and send them into debt. I do not think it unreasonable that they avoid this.
Do you not have any understanding how business works?
What is being sold is a means of accessing content copyrighted to Wizards of the Coasts through a digital medium as stored by the website. If the website can no longer support this and must close you lose that access as detailed in the terms and conditions of sale you agreed to when making your account and purchase. This is in FULL COMPLIANCE with the law. What you buy is a right (license) to access the content as stored on the website. The actual content stored does not become owned by you nor is it owned by D&D Beyond or Curse. The content remains the copyrighted property of Wizards of the Coast and D&D Beyond store this data and license access out through agreements made with Wizards of the Coast.
You are not buying content. You are buying a license of access to stored data.
They are in compliance with the law which you clearly do not understand. And this is offered through their website rather than through a downloadable PDF because of restrictions WotC, the actual owners of the content, have put in place. Do not blame D&D Beyond for things they cannot control.
My conclusion of your post is you haven't the faintest idea how business works (or the law, apparently).
So you can either:
~ Go read up on business and law.
~ Buy the licenses to digital access.
~ Homebrew copies to use for free.
~ Go harass the other companies, including Roll20, who also charge for digital access to WotC content.
Or any combination of the above. But I guarantee you that whining here about not getting free things you're actually not entitled to is not going to go well here and nobody who understands the business and legalities involved here will agree with you.
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond
@Omeggidon this point made by Sedge is an important one, and one that I think is often overlooked and misunderstood.
When you buy a physical book, any physical book, what you "own" is the physical thing, that is, the paper, and cardstock that make up the pages and cover.
You do not own the content that is inside. The content inside that physical book is owned by the author or publisher (copyright) and in some cases includes trademarked IP (ie. Beholder).
This distinction is important because it is the reason you are not allowed to legally republish the content of the book. You bought a physical PHB, but that doesn't give you the right to scan it, or type it all out, and then reprint and give-away (or sell) in any other form. You can sell the book itself, or lend it out, but you have no legal right to the content within the book.
This is what Sedge means when Sedge says that when you buy a physical book you are effectively buying a license to access the content of the book. The paper is the license.
For what it's worth, anyone can buy the Physical PHB on Amazon for almost half-price, and combined with the DDB version end up paying only about $8 more than buying just the physical book from a brick and mortar store. If you buy the DDB PHB compendium instead (or wait for a coupon code) you can actually get a physical and digital version for the same or less than the cost of the physical book from a book store.
That other companies sell PDFs isn't relevant. The actions of those companies do not confer any sort of obligation on to WotC.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Fixed that for ya ;)
(The rest is geared at the other guy, just want to make sure you know I'm not replying to you)
I think the main problem here is entitlement more than anything else. One can make all the arguments they want about being allowed to use the content as they see fit, but that does not permit you to, say, go into Barnes & Noble, take a PHB off the shelf and then loudly yell "I BOUGHT THIS ON AMAZON ALREADY" when they stop you from leaving. Now see how ridiculous that sounds? That's you. That's what you're saying you should be allowed to do here. You're not.
Thank mate ;)
I still believe in the capacity of the human mind to change their views if presented with facts and compelling evidence their ideas are incorrect or inapplicable (not saying wrong).
I came to realise that the "eintitlement" as it is often referred to is nothing more that feeling betrayed. They see this amazing new service, they think it will solve all their problems, only to find out that thy'd have to: A) buy the digital version of the content OR B) spend quite some time introducing the information contained in the content they might (or might not) have in physical form through the Homebrew system to use the tools at their maximum potential (important distinction: the tools ARE effectively free, they are only limited in what the users can do with them based on the content they have unlocked/homebrewed).
This frustration leads to the demand to be given the content for free, which is a hard feeling to make go away, as incorrect or ill-informed as it is.
Since launch I have been spending quite some time (on-and-off and with various levels of sarcasm) trying to make people making these claims understand why it can't be done... it is almost a mantra at this point XD
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Imagine that.
Dunning and Kruger want to have a chat with you about cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias...
Well, now I know for 100% positively certain that you're trolling. You have said blatantly false and easily referenced things about IP law.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
I never said it is actually possible, just that I am still naive enough to believe it is :P (I've had my good share of direct proof of the contrary, which should point me in the direction that I am OBSCENELY wrong based on the very fact that I keep trying... but that's the beauty of being human, I suppose... ... ... Hi, I am LeK, a walking, babbling nonsense, glad to make your acquaintance :) )
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
"Once a person purchases the content they should be allowed to use that content on any site in partnership with WoTC."
This is not up to D&D Beyond. That is up to WotC. This site is not a scam, as you claim, for following the rules as set by WotC.
"You are still completely missing the point. How many times do i have to say, it has nothing to do with wanting to get the service for free. Yes, D&DB should be able to obtain some monetary compensation for the service they provide. But charging each and every person the same amount, even if they had purchased a physical copy of the source material...at full retail "digital" price...is kind of absurd. It doesn't mean you are an stupid for doing it, but it doesn't mean they are actually be reasonable for charging that way."
They charge what they must to cover the license they pay to WotC and the costs of making it available to you. Which actually works out cheaper than buying a book in a store.
".it doesn't mean its actually good "business" its just taking advantage of those who are willing to actually do it."
Business and morality are the not same thing, by the way. Good business is what makes you the most money for the least effort/cost. Just putting that out there. Anyway, they charge the absolutely minimum they can to cover the cost of license, making it available, financing other services etc and something (a very small amount) on top for themselves. It's not D&D Beyond's fault if you have bought books elsewhere, they cannot discount it without losing out. And why should they lose out?
If you think it should be cheaper go to WotC who set the license prices. D&D Beyond owe you nothing. They are selling a product and at a reasonable price. If you want it buy it, if you don't want it then don't buy it, and if you have access elsewhere then just homebrew for free.
How you think any of this is a scam is beyond me. They're offering better and more than any other competitor out there.
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond
And for the love of all things fluffy it's "etc." not "e.c.t." It's short for et cetera.
Sorry, pet peeve.
>.>
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond
I believe we should go back to his previous response of his goal being to annoy you, which he seems to be starting to work (might be wrong, though).
There is one fundamental flaw, imho, in the legal angle: none of us have access to the license agreement between WotC and Curse, and unless someone is willing to start a case against them, no one outside of the interested parties of the agreement will ever see it.
Due to this, any reference you or anyone might come up with (for one side or the other of the argument) is completely useless, as they would be based on things that might be VERY different from the actual contents of the license agreement between WotC and Curse.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Summary of this thread:
laziness...entitlement...imaginary legal rights they claim to have. Seriously, just type out all the content of the books! Oh wait, that's hard and tedious? It's almost like you consider your time valuable...hmmm...I recall that there was someone, using a different account, who gave an almost word for word similar response to being called out about their (lack) of knowledge about IP law, some time ago. I think maybe even in this very thread...
Oh, and you don't get to take the high ground when you've been insulting everyone here since you started posting, either for their choice to pay for DDB at all, or their choice to buy the physical products as well as the digital, or the developers and staff here by calling them rip-off merchants.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
You forgot the people actively trying to annoy the first point people, they are few, but they're around.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games