Bits & Mortar is a voluntary arrangement. Only some brick and mortar stores participate..in fact there are only two who do so in my state. So this would only work if you bought the book from a participating store, assuming WOTC was willing to consider this. There is no indication they are.
Closest store for me is 223 miles away. I am not driving that far just to get a pdf version.
I wouldn't blame you. That's a really far drive.
Still, it's besides the point, which is that clearly this is a possible thing for a company to do. Wizards could make it happen if they wanted to. They have a lot of influence and resources.
Also, on places like DriveThruRPG you have the opposite- you can buy a PDF/physical combo and get the physical book delivered to you.
And no one is saying that it wouldn't be possible that you can get a physical with your digital. You would still pay the same prices as Amazon and DDB combined which equals just over MSRP.
And, yes, i suppose it is possible to get something on your receipt, but who is going to handle the software expense to have that added to every individual FLGS, Barnes and Noble, BAM, Amazon, Walmart etc? Plus square trade for those smaller business that don't use another pos system? does that burden get shifted to the owner or the end customer so now you end up paying even more to cover that. Who do you go to for support when the code doesn't work? do you have to pick to get it at (roll20, DDB, FG)? otherwise we are back to an convoluted overweight costly system just to track it so you can get a discount.
Wizards has a lot of resources? For MTG maybe which is their money maker, but to spend it on D&D, not so much.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Can I only share stuff here (rules, home brew and the like) with my players if I (or one of our group) have a master subscription? (Thus unlike just loaning them a physical book.)
Are the books in an easily readable format (like going through a book/pdf page by page)? Is it just more as a reference tool to the individual parts and aspects as the basic SRD stuff appears to be.
What happens to the stuff bought here when the inevitable 6th edition D&D comes out?
Are there plans to offer book bundles that are minus adventures or 'lifetime' subscription options?
Can I only share stuff here (rules, home brew and the like) with my players if I (or one of our group) have a master subscription? (Thus unlike just loaning them a physical book.)
Are the books in an easily readable format (like going through a book/pdf page by page)? Is it just more as a reference tool to the individual parts and aspects as the basic SRD stuff appears to be.
What happens to the stuff bought here when the inevitable 6th edition D&D comes out?
Are there plans to offer book bundles that are minus adventures or 'lifetime' subscription options?
If you create a campaign, you can share your homebrew options for a character (feats, background, races...soon subclasses) with a free account. However, to share purchased content, you or one of your players must have a Master Tier subscription.
The books look like the Basic Rules, with all the artwork and maps.
I do not know about 6th edition, but as long as DDB lives, you keep all the thing you buy. For more information, read the Terms of Service.
There are no current plans for "Rules only Bundle" or lifetime subscriptions.
Thank you for making it crystal clear that I should not waste any money on this site, as I am not interested in purchasing digital versions of books I already own. Until and unless Wizards offers a digital/physical bundle, this business model makes no sense to me.
@Mooninaut Curse is not WOTC, WOTC is not Curse. Curse has to pay licensing, staff developers, develop tools, fulfill data entry, and maintain the servers and those tools. This isn't just a PDF version of the book slapped behind a paywall, it's integrated tools, search functions, character builders, (future) campaign manager, etc.
None of the money from your physical purchase of the book is going to Curse. Additionally, if you lost your copy of the PHB, you would have to rebuy it. If you wanted a second copy at the table, you would be buying another copy. You didn't buy the right to own the content in the PHB, you bought a printing of it. That printing has no application here, other than the ability for you to enter content within it as Homebrew content (not to publish/share) to use for yourself and in your own campaigns.
@Mooninaut Curse is not WOTC, WOTC is not Curse. Curse has to pay licensing, staff developers, develop tools, fulfill data entry, and maintain the servers and those tools. This isn't just a PDF version of the book slapped behind a paywall, it's integrated tools, search functions, character builders, (future) campaign manager, etc.
None of the money from your physical purchase of the book is going to Curse. Additionally, if you lost your copy of the PHB, you would have to rebuy it. If you wanted a second copy at the table, you would be buying another copy. You didn't buy the right to own the content in the PHB, you bought a printing of it. That printing has no application here, other than the ability for you to enter content within it as Homebrew content (not to publish/share) to use for yourself and in your own campaigns.
I constantly see this response and I I just cannot stress how far missing the point it is.
I don't care that Wizards isn't Curse. I don't care that Curse had to spend money developing D&D Beyond. Because I never wanted D&D Beyond in the first place. I've only ever wanted a PDF. D&D Beyond doesn't do anything for me that I couldn't already do with better and more robust tools, that I bought for the tools thesmelves, not for content that I already owned.
I would, for the record, pay a flat fee to use D&D Beyond in its entirety. I would pay for a tool. I will not pay for content that I already have access to, any more than I'd buy a second physical Player's Handbook to play with a second group of people.
Thank you for your explanation, but it was not required.
I fully understand their business model. They're selling D&D-as-a-service, at rates that I think are too high. It is entirely appropriate for me, a potential customer, to explain to them, a potential supplier, why they are not getting my business. My post was not intended as "screw you Wizards/Curse/whoever, I'll never give you my money, burn the whole thing down".
It was intended as a counteroffer/market information: If they offer bundles at reasonable rates, I'm interested. If not, I'm not interested. I'm offering them more money (part of a discounted bundle) than they're getting from me now ($0). It's up to Wizards and Curse (not you) to decide whether Wizards and Curse are interested in higher revenue with lower margins. I don't know, and, again, neither do you.
Have a wonderful day, and don't stress out too much about the business models of companies you don't work for, or the opinions of strangers on the Internet.
@Mooninaut Curse is not WOTC, WOTC is not Curse. Curse has to pay licensing, staff developers, develop tools, fulfill data entry, and maintain the servers and those tools. This isn't just a PDF version of the book slapped behind a paywall, it's integrated tools, search functions, character builders, (future) campaign manager, etc.
None of the money from your physical purchase of the book is going to Curse. Additionally, if you lost your copy of the PHB, you would have to rebuy it. If you wanted a second copy at the table, you would be buying another copy. You didn't buy the right to own the content in the PHB, you bought a printing of it. That printing has no application here, other than the ability for you to enter content within it as Homebrew content (not to publish/share) to use for yourself and in your own campaigns.
I constantly see this response and I I just cannot stress how far missing the point it is.
I don't care that Wizards isn't Curse. I don't care that Curse had to spend money developing D&D Beyond. Because I never wanted D&D Beyond in the first place. I've only ever wanted a PDF. D&D Beyond doesn't do anything for me that I couldn't already do with better and more robust tools, that I bought for the tools thesmelves, not for content that I already owned.
I would, for the record, pay a flat fee to use D&D Beyond in its entirety. I would pay for a tool. I will not pay for content that I already have access to, any more than I'd buy a second physical Player's Handbook to play with a second group of people.
The problem is that a tool cannot function without the rules content.
D&D Beyond could not sell a functioning toolset legally without using those rules. All other LEGAL toolsets only use the SRD (which the free version of D&D Beyond also uses).
If you had access to a robust character creator with all feats, spell descriptions, and other information about character abilities at a single click's reach, why would you ever need to buy a PHB?
An official toolset that did not require purchase of the rules content would basically be Curse (or WotC by proxy) making the PHB obsolete to a large number of people. That's why other non-licensed complete character creator tools have been issued C&Ds unless they backed off to just use the free content.
Also, to further drive this point home, D&D Beyond never advertised itself as a PDF, or as a Character Creator.
From the very start, the advertised purpose of D&D Beyond was to streamline the entire game experience. That absolutely requires rules content, which they could not just give out for free. They could charge a flat fee, and they do. It's called the Legendary Bundle.
If you didn't want D&D Beyond in the first place, that's fine. But you're the guy at the taco stand screaming and crying about hamburgers, asking for a product that was never promised or advertised. Go find a hamburger joint.
Also, to further drive this point home, D&D Beyond never advertised itself as a PDF, or as a Character Creator.
From the very start, the advertised purpose of D&D Beyond was to streamline the entire game experience. That absolutely requires rules content, which they could not just give out for free. They could charge a flat fee, and they do. It's called the Legendary Bundle.
If you didn't want D&D Beyond in the first place, that's fine. But you're the guy at the taco stand screaming and crying about hamburgers, asking for a product that was never promised or advertised. Go find a hamburger joint.
Your analogy fails. Copyright is a monopoly. There's no monopoly on fast food. If the taco stand doesn't sell burgers, I can go to a burger joint. If Wizards doesn't make their digital content available in a form that is convenient and financially worthwhile for me, I can go literally nowhere else (legally) for said content. So yes, if I lived in the dystopian future of Demolition Man, and there was only one fast food company, and they only sold tacos, and I wanted a hamburger? You can bet I'd let them have an earful. That makes you, on the other hand, the guy who does not work for the taco monopoly, standing at the monopoly taco stand, yelling at customers who ask for burgers.
If I want to give polite, respectful feedback to a company about what product(s) I would like to see them make, then that's between me and them. Never spend your own time doing unpaid work for for-profit companies unless you benefit from it directly. You don't work for Wizards, you don't work for Curse, and you're wasting time you could be spending doing something for yourself or someone important to you.
Admittedly, I'm bored at work with a decent amount of downtime.
But while D&D may be a single product, it does not have a monopoly on RPG gaming. I can think of one very close competitor that people love to use as the shining example for including PDFs with physical purchases. That was kind of my point.
Taco Bell has no incentive currently to offer hamburgers. D&D has no incentive to offer PDFs. I only take time to make this point because it seems so obvious from my perspective.
Admittedly, I'm bored at work with a decent amount of downtime.
But while D&D may be a single product, it does not have a monopoly on RPG gaming. I can think of one very close competitor that people love to use as the shining example for including PDFs with physical purchases. That was kind of my point.
Taco Bell has no incentive currently to offer hamburgers. D&D has no incentive to offer PDFs. I only take time to make this point because it seems so obvious from my perspective.
Obvious, but wrong. I don't want to play Brand X, I want to play D&D. And I want Wizards to offer a digital service worth my money, which D&D Beyond is not.
There are two inevitable consequences when people want a for-profit enterprise to change something about their products.
1. People say "vote with your dollars, that's the only thing they care about"
2. Other people say "don't vote with your dollars, they don't care"
To go back to my analogy, you don't want Brand X, you want Taco Bell. You just want a hamburger from Taco Bell, a product they don't currently offer.
I'm in camp 1 for sure, but you're trying to vote with forum posts. I can't remember if it was on this thread or the other, but that has been discussed. You have every right to come here and voice your concerns, but all of these issues have been discussed ad nauseam, and there are no new ideas coming from the "This should be different" camp, since most people are new users who won't go back and read the previous posts. Hence why the frequent posters get easily frustrated. Not to be rude, but D&D is a game that caters to readers, so reading a few old posts shouldn't be that big of a deal.
The main reason forum posts are a bad way to try and institute change is that it gives a false representation of commonality. Typically, happy users chime in less. There are thousands of happy users, and maybe 10s of people making complaints. They just seem more common because happy users aren't making "Just chiming in to say great job!" posts. But anyone can create a free forum account and make a post saying "Change this and I'll buy it." That does not guarantee a sale. The point I've been making is that all indications show that sales are not suffering. The D&D brand itself is the most popular it has ever been according to PR that WotC has released. They might be lying, but I know more people playing it now than I ever have, so it certainly seems true.
So you have a small amount of disgruntled potential users VS a large proven user base who have no issue. Well, I can't say no issue. I agree that there are things that could be better, but I am patiently awaiting a lot of the promised updates, and the service as it currently exists does make my game run a lot more streamlined. But my point is that there is no real indication that the service needs to be changed. Any business is going to have people who complain.
So yes, I do believe that you should vote with your dollars. If the service isn't for you, then don't buy it. But all indications point to more people are voting with their dollars for the current service. So I think they care more about their customers.
Admittedly, I'm bored at work with a decent amount of downtime.
But while D&D may be a single product, it does not have a monopoly on RPG gaming. I can think of one very close competitor that people love to use as the shining example for including PDFs with physical purchases. That was kind of my point.
Taco Bell has no incentive currently to offer hamburgers. D&D has no incentive to offer PDFs. I only take time to make this point because it seems so obvious from my perspective.
Obvious, but wrong. I don't want to play Brand X, I want to play D&D. And I want Wizards to offer a digital service worth my money, which D&D Beyond is not.
There are two inevitable consequences when people want a for-profit enterprise to change something about their products.
1. People say "vote with your dollars, that's the only thing they care about"
2. Other people say "don't vote with your dollars, they don't care"
Would it be fair to put you in camp #2?
So yes, you "want" a product that WOTC has determined that it does not fit their business plan and have no intention of going that route. So the option is if you want to play D&D and not PF, then you need to go with what they decided to go with. Sorry it is not what you "want".
I am a firm believer in vote with your dollars. if you don't like it or it doesn't fit for you, then don't buy it/spend money on it. In the end it will either work out and show that something needs to change or you will end up in the minority and nothing will change. However, it is your dollars in the end and you get to decide what to do with them. No one if forcing you to purchase DDB. WOTC has not come out and said they will no longer print books so you still have a choice. Just not one you like at the moment.
Loved the analogy of him standing at the taco stand yelling at the people wanting a hamburger. it made me laugh.
I'm willing to pay for digital content, and I'm willing to pay for a subscription service. I am, however, reluctant to pay for digital content with an indefinite lifespan. Do we have any idea how long this service will exist, and what will happen when it ends? I'd be pretty bummed if rulebooks I purchased vanished into the aether in a couple years.
D&D Insider lasted for what, 7 years? Do we think that's roughly how long D&D Beyond will be up?
I'm willing to pay for digital content, and I'm willing to pay for a subscription service. I am, however, reluctant to pay for digital content with an indefinite lifespan. Do we have any idea how long this service will exist, and what will happen when it ends? I'd be pretty bummed if rulebooks I purchased vanished into the aether in a couple years.
D&D Insider lasted for what, 7 years? Do we think that's roughly how long D&D Beyond will be up?
I still subscribe to D&D Insider.
When I asked a question similar to this upon being modded, the response was along the lines of, "What makes you think we won't be the ones creating 6th edition." They have plans for the future that indicate they're in it for the long haul. Of course, those plans can always be derailed by lack of support. So far, as Badeye revealed upon leaving Beta, their numbers have already sustained them for years to come. With D&D being as popular as it is nowadays, I feel secure saying this trend will continue as the tools improve and more features are released/revealed.
It's always a risk purchasing something online, even more so when the item you purchase is just a bunch of 1's and 0's. But that's a risk vs. reward scenario that every person has to decide for themselves. I'm confidant that this toolset is going to take D&D further than it has ever gone in the digital marketplace.
Can I only share stuff here (rules, home brew and the like) with my players if I (or one of our group) have a master subscription? (Thus unlike just loaning them a physical book.)
Are the books in an easily readable format (like going through a book/pdf page by page)? Is it just more as a reference tool to the individual parts and aspects as the basic SRD stuff appears to be.
What happens to the stuff bought here when the inevitable 6th edition D&D comes out?
Are there plans to offer book bundles that are minus adventures or 'lifetime' subscription options?
If you create a campaign, you can share your homebrew options for a character (feats, background, races...soon subclasses) with a free account. However, to share purchased content, you or one of your players must have a Master Tier subscription.
The books look like the Basic Rules, with all the artwork and maps.
I do not know about 6th edition, but as long as DDB lives, you keep all the thing you buy. For more information, read the Terms of Service.
There are no current plans for "Rules only Bundle" or lifetime subscriptions.
Thanks for the Information.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
- Loswaith
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Just after a few Clarifications and Questions
Can I only share stuff here (rules, home brew and the like) with my players if I (or one of our group) have a master subscription? (Thus unlike just loaning them a physical book.)
Are the books in an easily readable format (like going through a book/pdf page by page)? Is it just more as a reference tool to the individual parts and aspects as the basic SRD stuff appears to be.
What happens to the stuff bought here when the inevitable 6th edition D&D comes out?
Are there plans to offer book bundles that are minus adventures or 'lifetime' subscription options?
- Loswaith
Thank you for making it crystal clear that I should not waste any money on this site, as I am not interested in purchasing digital versions of books I already own. Until and unless Wizards offers a digital/physical bundle, this business model makes no sense to me.
@Mooninaut Curse is not WOTC, WOTC is not Curse. Curse has to pay licensing, staff developers, develop tools, fulfill data entry, and maintain the servers and those tools. This isn't just a PDF version of the book slapped behind a paywall, it's integrated tools, search functions, character builders, (future) campaign manager, etc.
None of the money from your physical purchase of the book is going to Curse. Additionally, if you lost your copy of the PHB, you would have to rebuy it. If you wanted a second copy at the table, you would be buying another copy. You didn't buy the right to own the content in the PHB, you bought a printing of it. That printing has no application here, other than the ability for you to enter content within it as Homebrew content (not to publish/share) to use for yourself and in your own campaigns.
Thank you for your explanation, but it was not required.
I fully understand their business model. They're selling D&D-as-a-service, at rates that I think are too high. It is entirely appropriate for me, a potential customer, to explain to them, a potential supplier, why they are not getting my business. My post was not intended as "screw you Wizards/Curse/whoever, I'll never give you my money, burn the whole thing down".
It was intended as a counteroffer/market information: If they offer bundles at reasonable rates, I'm interested. If not, I'm not interested. I'm offering them more money (part of a discounted bundle) than they're getting from me now ($0). It's up to Wizards and Curse (not you) to decide whether Wizards and Curse are interested in higher revenue with lower margins. I don't know, and, again, neither do you.
Have a wonderful day, and don't stress out too much about the business models of companies you don't work for, or the opinions of strangers on the Internet.
And I cast Heroism on the community.
The problem is that a tool cannot function without the rules content.
D&D Beyond could not sell a functioning toolset legally without using those rules. All other LEGAL toolsets only use the SRD (which the free version of D&D Beyond also uses).
If you had access to a robust character creator with all feats, spell descriptions, and other information about character abilities at a single click's reach, why would you ever need to buy a PHB?
An official toolset that did not require purchase of the rules content would basically be Curse (or WotC by proxy) making the PHB obsolete to a large number of people. That's why other non-licensed complete character creator tools have been issued C&Ds unless they backed off to just use the free content.
Also, to further drive this point home, D&D Beyond never advertised itself as a PDF, or as a Character Creator.
From the very start, the advertised purpose of D&D Beyond was to streamline the entire game experience. That absolutely requires rules content, which they could not just give out for free. They could charge a flat fee, and they do. It's called the Legendary Bundle.
If you didn't want D&D Beyond in the first place, that's fine. But you're the guy at the taco stand screaming and crying about hamburgers, asking for a product that was never promised or advertised. Go find a hamburger joint.
Admittedly, I'm bored at work with a decent amount of downtime.
But while D&D may be a single product, it does not have a monopoly on RPG gaming. I can think of one very close competitor that people love to use as the shining example for including PDFs with physical purchases. That was kind of my point.
Taco Bell has no incentive currently to offer hamburgers. D&D has no incentive to offer PDFs. I only take time to make this point because it seems so obvious from my perspective.
To go back to my analogy, you don't want Brand X, you want Taco Bell. You just want a hamburger from Taco Bell, a product they don't currently offer.
I'm in camp 1 for sure, but you're trying to vote with forum posts. I can't remember if it was on this thread or the other, but that has been discussed. You have every right to come here and voice your concerns, but all of these issues have been discussed ad nauseam, and there are no new ideas coming from the "This should be different" camp, since most people are new users who won't go back and read the previous posts. Hence why the frequent posters get easily frustrated. Not to be rude, but D&D is a game that caters to readers, so reading a few old posts shouldn't be that big of a deal.
The main reason forum posts are a bad way to try and institute change is that it gives a false representation of commonality. Typically, happy users chime in less. There are thousands of happy users, and maybe 10s of people making complaints. They just seem more common because happy users aren't making "Just chiming in to say great job!" posts. But anyone can create a free forum account and make a post saying "Change this and I'll buy it." That does not guarantee a sale. The point I've been making is that all indications show that sales are not suffering. The D&D brand itself is the most popular it has ever been according to PR that WotC has released. They might be lying, but I know more people playing it now than I ever have, so it certainly seems true.
So you have a small amount of disgruntled potential users VS a large proven user base who have no issue. Well, I can't say no issue. I agree that there are things that could be better, but I am patiently awaiting a lot of the promised updates, and the service as it currently exists does make my game run a lot more streamlined. But my point is that there is no real indication that the service needs to be changed. Any business is going to have people who complain.
So yes, I do believe that you should vote with your dollars. If the service isn't for you, then don't buy it. But all indications point to more people are voting with their dollars for the current service. So I think they care more about their customers.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Can promotion codes be used on purchases of subscriptions?
I am the Inquisitor Imperitus. I am judge, jury, and executioner. Draw your last breath now, as I send you to the Nine Hells.
I'm willing to pay for digital content, and I'm willing to pay for a subscription service. I am, however, reluctant to pay for digital content with an indefinite lifespan. Do we have any idea how long this service will exist, and what will happen when it ends? I'd be pretty bummed if rulebooks I purchased vanished into the aether in a couple years.
D&D Insider lasted for what, 7 years? Do we think that's roughly how long D&D Beyond will be up?
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- Loswaith