I think of the opening parkour chase scene between Bond and unidentified bad guy in Casino Royale.
...which is a perfect example of someone using Strength + Athletics (Bond) versus someone using Dexterity + Acrobatics.
Bond is not the perfect case here; ""Ocean's twelve"" movie is a better choice here...
Ocean's 12 wasn't in the clip that MP linked to. It was a clip of Bond versus a parkourist. In that clip it was a perfect example of someone using Strength + Athletics (Bond) versus someone using Dexterity + Acrobatics. Since it wasn't a clip from Ocean's Twelve, that movie was irrelevant for the clip actually being linked to. So yes, Bond is the perfect example (not 'case') "here" since "here" didn't include Ocean's XII.
The entry for Constitution Check says that no skills apply to it being more passive. DMs can always decide to sill apply a skill such as Athletics or Survival if he think it's appropriate though
Constitution Checks: Constitution checks are uncommon, and no skills apply to Constitution checks, because the endurance this ability represents is largely passive rather than involving a specific effort on the part of a character or monster. A Constitution check can model your attempt to push beyond normal limits, however
Yeah, this is why I'm against an endurance skill. I think of a skill as something in particular you 'do.'
It may be approrpiate to do a skill check swapping out con in cases where you're testing the character's endurance as they perform that skill, or a general con check or save for endurance. But that feels too broad to me for a 'skill.' Name a skill and I can describe something the character is actively doing. Looking/listening for something, examining for clues, climbing, doing a backflip, trying to recall information about history or magic etc.
While you can when context fits swap the ability score of a skill, the skill should be able to stand on its own for what you're doing. Endurance just sounds like the cases where you might use CON instead of the standard ability score rather than being something that would serve well as a skill.
I understand we have constitution save. But it would be nice to be able to have Expertise in such things. Such as a Marathon Runner who dedicated to training their endurance for running.
Plus it would be nice to have a skill for Constitution.
Being able to run a marathon is an example of training to have an above average Constitution. Right?
That’s when, as a DM, one would call for a Constitution (Athletics) check. Or if someone wanted to swim a great distance, like swimming the English Channel. Or if somebody was attempting to climb really high too. Basically any time someone is exerting themselves for a significant period of time. Your Constitution represents your physical aptitude, the Athletics proficiency represents endurance training. I regularly try to make use of the Variant rule regarding different abilities with different skills whenever it makes sense. They even specifically call out Con (Athletics) checks for extended periods of exertion in that section.
Normally, your proficiency in a skill applies only to a specific kind of ability check. Proficiency in Athletics, for example, usually applies to Strength checks. In some situations, though, your proficiency might reasonably apply to a different kind of check. In such cases, the DM might ask for a check using an unusual combination of ability and skill, or you might ask your DM if you can apply a proficiency to a different check. For example, if you have to swim from an offshore island to the mainland, your DM might call for a Constitution check to see if you have the stamina to make it that far. In this case, your DM might allow you to apply your proficiency in Athletics and ask for a Constitution (Athletics) check. So if you're proficient in Athletics, you apply your proficiency bonus to the Constitution check just as you would normally do for a Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, when your half-‐‑orc barbarian uses a display of raw strength to intimidate an enemy, your DM might ask for a Strength (Intimidation) check, even though Intimidation is normally associated with Charisma.
Heck, if combat goes longer than 6 or 7 rounds it should probably call for a Con (Athletics) check to be perfectly honest. I know that’s sposta only be less than a minute’s worth of exertion, which wouldn’t normally be any big thing for any reasonably healthy individual. But the amount of "fighting” a D&D character can theoretically do in that amount of time would probably be more analogous to a full 5 minute round of an MMA fight, or at least a 3 minute round of boxing. Ever seen an MMA fighter after the first round? They’re starting to breath a li’l heavy. By the end of a standard 3-round fight they have clearly heavily exerted themselves. After a 5-round title fight they’re absolutely gassed. A typical boxing match only goes 4-6 rounds, even title fights only go to 12 rounds these days. There hasn’t been a15 round bout that I know of in, what, 40ish years? Not since I was a little kid at any rate, so sometime in the early ‘80s. Go pick up a a 5-10 lb shield and a 2-3 lb sword (realistic weights, not D&D weights) and swing ‘em around for a few minutes and you’ll probably start breathing a li’l heavier if you’re reasonably healthy, and absolutely panting if you’re an average overweight, out of shape American (like myself). After 10 minutes… fo’getaboutit. So, if you want to make fighting feel more realistic then call for a Con (Athletics) check after the 6th round and if they fail they get a level of temporary exhaustion that goes away after a short or long rest. That’ll also serve to encourage short resting too.
There's no need to do any constitution checks for combat. Six or seven rounds is only less than a minute of real time. Just off the top of my head the only time I know of to check for exhaustion is for some kind of traveling over long distances.
There's no need to do any constitution checks for combat. Six or seven rounds is only less than a minute of real time. Just off the top of my head the only time I know of to check for exhaustion is for some kind of traveling over long distances.
The Optional Chase Rules make it so Heroes struggle to maintain 60’/turn (Dash every turn) while average high school runners can do a 5k run at just under 10’/s (60’/turn) for almost half an hour.
Granted, the Exhaustion from Chasing is completely cleared regardless of level after a Short or Long Rest, but a single Dash per turn is more like a jog/run while 2 Dashes would be more like a sprint.
Applying Constitution modifier to Athletics checks for endurance is one way to do it. A straight up constitution save is usually more thematically accurate, though. Most "endurance" isn't a technique that is learned but rather an innate physical quality, and that quality in question is exactly what the core ability score Constitution represents. To hold up under repetitious and/or sustained physical stress (aka endurance), you make a Constitution saving throw. If you want proficiency in Con saves and don't have them as a class feature, there's the Resilient feat, in the PHB (+1 to an ability score and proficiency in saves with that ability).
Well, since this thread was already necroed, this statement is baloney. Call it a skill or call it a physical trait, but endurance is very much a thing you have to build up by exercising. It takes a lot of time and effort to build up your endurance in order to do something like run a marathon, nobody can just go out and do it without months of preparation.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
There's no need to do any constitution checks for combat. Six or seven rounds is only less than a minute of real time. Just off the top of my head the only time I know of to check for exhaustion is for some kind of traveling over long distances.
The Optional Chase Rules make it so Heroes struggle to maintain 60’/turn (Dash every turn) while average high school runners can do a 5k run at just under 10’/s (60’/turn) for almost half an hour.
Granted, the Exhaustion from Chasing is completely cleared regardless of level after a Short or Long Rest, but a single Dash per turn is more like a jog/run while 2 Dashes would be more like a sprint.
And how many of those high schoolers are potentially wearing 10 to 65 lbs. of armor and carrying another couple dozen lbs. of assorted gear?
Applying Constitution modifier to Athletics checks for endurance is one way to do it. A straight up constitution save is usually more thematically accurate, though. Most "endurance" isn't a technique that is learned but rather an innate physical quality, and that quality in question is exactly what the core ability score Constitution represents. To hold up under repetitious and/or sustained physical stress (aka endurance), you make a Constitution saving throw. If you want proficiency in Con saves and don't have them as a class feature, there's the Resilient feat, in the PHB (+1 to an ability score and proficiency in saves with that ability).
Well, since this thread was already necroed, this statement is baloney. Call it a skill or call it a physical trait, but endurance is very much a thing you have to build up by exercising. It takes a lot of time and effort to build up your endurance in order to do something like run a marathon, nobody can just go out and do it without months of preparation.
While I definitely agree that you can/must "train" endurance... I think it can be completely captured in the CON stat, itself.
I toss my vote in favor of Endurance being added to a Player’s Options, but I am leaning more towards a Feat.
When you take the Feat, you would have Expertise in the Endurance Skill based upon whatever Ability Score you chose to increase so that someone wouldn’t have the Endurance to pull an all nighter doing research AND running marathons.
If WIS is selected for Endurance, then WIS based actions would benefit from extended time spent doing it. If STR is chosen, then Endurance checks like those related to activity while fully geared would benefit. For Unarmored Characters, a CON based Endurance would apply to things like marathons and other typical endurance feats which don’t involve being encumbered. Dashing multiple times per turn and/or multiple consecutive turns would fall under CON Endurance in battle or chase scenarios, but would also apply to marching scenarios outside of combat. Moving and Dashing twice in a turn is equivalent to moving 90’/turn or 15’/s which is roughly the pace for ultramarathons which can last 8+ hours. Such a pace would result in temporary Exhaustion (Exhaustion that is completely removed after a Short or Long Rest, rather than a single level being removed after a Long Rest). It seems rather ridiculous to kneecap a party of lightly geared monks that have twice the normal Speed and have an ability like Step of the Wind. If they have the CON and Endurance to Dash “twice per turn” for hours at a time, they should have a marching speed that reflects that. We are talking about 180’/turn which is 30’/s. The fastest marathon was 114’/turn which is 19’/s for 2 hours, and that’s without magic. Obviously, a mixed party would have a marching speed equal to the slowest member that is walking, but that shouldn’t affect a more specialized and homogeneous group.
I would place an elite professional marathon runner at about a 17-18 CON; or 15-16 CON with an Expertise in Endurance (as the OP would suggest); or a 15-16 CON with the Endurance Feat like I suggest.
Under the definition of something specific and independent of the base Ability Score.
Lifting things isn't a strength skill. Dodging things isn't a Dexterity skill. Endurance isn't a Constitution skill. It's just what the ability score represents.
There's no need to do any constitution checks for combat. Six or seven rounds is only less than a minute of real time. Just off the top of my head the only time I know of to check for exhaustion is for some kind of traveling over long distances.
The Optional Chase Rules make it so Heroes struggle to maintain 60’/turn (Dash every turn) while average high school runners can do a 5k run at just under 10’/s (60’/turn) for almost half an hour.
Granted, the Exhaustion from Chasing is completely cleared regardless of level after a Short or Long Rest, but a single Dash per turn is more like a jog/run while 2 Dashes would be more like a sprint.
And how many of those high schoolers are potentially wearing 10 to 65 lbs. of armor and carrying another couple dozen lbs. of assorted gear?
How many Monks are?
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Bond is not the perfect case here; ""Ocean's twelve"" movie is a better choice here...
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
Ocean's 12 wasn't in the clip that MP linked to. It was a clip of Bond versus a parkourist. In that clip it was a perfect example of someone using Strength + Athletics (Bond) versus someone using Dexterity + Acrobatics. Since it wasn't a clip from Ocean's Twelve, that movie was irrelevant for the clip actually being linked to. So yes, Bond is the perfect example (not 'case') "here" since "here" didn't include Ocean's XII.
Yeah, this is why I'm against an endurance skill. I think of a skill as something in particular you 'do.'
It may be approrpiate to do a skill check swapping out con in cases where you're testing the character's endurance as they perform that skill, or a general con check or save for endurance. But that feels too broad to me for a 'skill.' Name a skill and I can describe something the character is actively doing. Looking/listening for something, examining for clues, climbing, doing a backflip, trying to recall information about history or magic etc.
While you can when context fits swap the ability score of a skill, the skill should be able to stand on its own for what you're doing. Endurance just sounds like the cases where you might use CON instead of the standard ability score rather than being something that would serve well as a skill.
That's the problem though isn't it. Anything you can do as a skill for con can just be used as a save.
Well, I have been known to call for Constitution (Athletics) checks on more than one occasion.
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Being able to run a marathon is an example of training to have an above average Constitution. Right?
That’s when, as a DM, one would call for a Constitution (Athletics) check. Or if someone wanted to swim a great distance, like swimming the English Channel. Or if somebody was attempting to climb really high too. Basically any time someone is exerting themselves for a significant period of time. Your Constitution represents your physical aptitude, the Athletics proficiency represents endurance training. I regularly try to make use of the Variant rule regarding different abilities with different skills whenever it makes sense. They even specifically call out Con (Athletics) checks for extended periods of exertion in that section.
Heck, if combat goes longer than 6 or 7 rounds it should probably call for a Con (Athletics) check to be perfectly honest. I know that’s sposta only be less than a minute’s worth of exertion, which wouldn’t normally be any big thing for any reasonably healthy individual. But the amount of "fighting” a D&D character can theoretically do in that amount of time would probably be more analogous to a full 5 minute round of an MMA fight, or at least a 3 minute round of boxing. Ever seen an MMA fighter after the first round? They’re starting to breath a li’l heavy. By the end of a standard 3-round fight they have clearly heavily exerted themselves. After a 5-round title fight they’re absolutely gassed. A typical boxing match only goes 4-6 rounds, even title fights only go to 12 rounds these days. There hasn’t been a15 round bout that I know of in, what, 40ish years? Not since I was a little kid at any rate, so sometime in the early ‘80s. Go pick up a a 5-10 lb shield and a 2-3 lb sword (realistic weights, not D&D weights) and swing ‘em around for a few minutes and you’ll probably start breathing a li’l heavier if you’re reasonably healthy, and absolutely panting if you’re an average overweight, out of shape American (like myself). After 10 minutes… fo’getaboutit. So, if you want to make fighting feel more realistic then call for a Con (Athletics) check after the 6th round and if they fail they get a level of temporary exhaustion that goes away after a short or long rest. That’ll also serve to encourage short resting too.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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Content Troubleshooting
There's no need to do any constitution checks for combat. Six or seven rounds is only less than a minute of real time. Just off the top of my head the only time I know of to check for exhaustion is for some kind of traveling over long distances.
The Optional Chase Rules make it so Heroes struggle to maintain 60’/turn (Dash every turn) while average high school runners can do a 5k run at just under 10’/s (60’/turn) for almost half an hour.
Granted, the Exhaustion from Chasing is completely cleared regardless of level after a Short or Long Rest, but a single Dash per turn is more like a jog/run while 2 Dashes would be more like a sprint.
Well, since this thread was already necroed, this statement is baloney. Call it a skill or call it a physical trait, but endurance is very much a thing you have to build up by exercising. It takes a lot of time and effort to build up your endurance in order to do something like run a marathon, nobody can just go out and do it without months of preparation.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
And how many of those high schoolers are potentially wearing 10 to 65 lbs. of armor and carrying another couple dozen lbs. of assorted gear?
While I definitely agree that you can/must "train" endurance... I think it can be completely captured in the CON stat, itself.
I toss my vote in favor of Endurance being added to a Player’s Options, but I am leaning more towards a Feat.
When you take the Feat, you would have Expertise in the Endurance Skill based upon whatever Ability Score you chose to increase so that someone wouldn’t have the Endurance to pull an all nighter doing research AND running marathons.
If WIS is selected for Endurance, then WIS based actions would benefit from extended time spent doing it. If STR is chosen, then Endurance checks like those related to activity while fully geared would benefit. For Unarmored Characters, a CON based Endurance would apply to things like marathons and other typical endurance feats which don’t involve being encumbered. Dashing multiple times per turn and/or multiple consecutive turns would fall under CON Endurance in battle or chase scenarios, but would also apply to marching scenarios outside of combat. Moving and Dashing twice in a turn is equivalent to moving 90’/turn or 15’/s which is roughly the pace for ultramarathons which can last 8+ hours. Such a pace would result in temporary Exhaustion (Exhaustion that is completely removed after a Short or Long Rest, rather than a single level being removed after a Long Rest). It seems rather ridiculous to kneecap a party of lightly geared monks that have twice the normal Speed and have an ability like Step of the Wind. If they have the CON and Endurance to Dash “twice per turn” for hours at a time, they should have a marching speed that reflects that. We are talking about 180’/turn which is 30’/s. The fastest marathon was 114’/turn which is 19’/s for 2 hours, and that’s without magic. Obviously, a mixed party would have a marching speed equal to the slowest member that is walking, but that shouldn’t affect a more specialized and homogeneous group.
I would place an elite professional marathon runner at about a 17-18 CON; or 15-16 CON with an Expertise in Endurance (as the OP would suggest); or a 15-16 CON with the Endurance Feat like I suggest.
"Training for endurance" is literally the in game explanation of raising your Constitution as you level...
By that logic, improving any skill is just raising the relevant stat as you level.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Endurance isn't a 'skill', it's an inherent part of Constitution. Otherwise, Constitution is just a random number that you add all training onto.
That said, Yes, 100%. If you improve your skill, your ability at Athletics improves too.
Under what definition of skill?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Under the definition of something specific and independent of the base Ability Score.
Lifting things isn't a strength skill. Dodging things isn't a Dexterity skill. Endurance isn't a Constitution skill. It's just what the ability score represents.
How many Monks are?