D&D: WotC’s New Lore Changes Raise Questions Among Players

Quote from Shepherd_Hubbard >> 

I'm stating it explicitley, Drow have free will.

 

Then that should settle it with regards to absolute alignment, no? Can't have free will if everyone must needs be have an evil alignment. 

Quote from pangurjan >>

Quote from Shepherd_Hubbard >> 

I'm stating it explicitley, Drow have free will.

 

Then that should settle it with regards to absolute alignment, no? Can't have free will if everyone must needs be have an evil alignment. 

 My pureblood Sith in SWTOR has Free Will.  She also has a racial affinity for the dark side of the force.  Is alignment a factor of Will?

As per all the rest of my post, having something is a different matter than using it.  If I know that taking action X is going to earn me 40 lashes, then I will excersize my free will by choosing to avoid whatever it is that is going earn me 40 lashes.  If the thing that is going to earn me 40 lashes is showing mercy to an enemy, then over time I learn not to do that.  Similarly, if I'm rewarded for a certain behavior, I am going excersise my free will to choose to do whatever it is that gets me a reward.  If the thing that is going to get me a reward is chopping the heards off of an enemy, than over time I learn to that as often as I can.  This combined with not knowing, at least innitially, of any other, better ways; i.e being kept ignorant of them.  This is conditioning.  The society churns out evil characters by only reinforcing those social behaviors and not even teaching what 'good' behaviors are.

The Force is a lousy example, since dark or light 'sides' are all how you use the same powers, at least based on what we have seen in the films. May as well say that they have genetics based anger management issues. Remember that the official line is that even positive emotions such as love lead to the dark side.

Indeed.  The Dualist conflict there is Passion vs. Serenity.  The underlying lesson though I think again is balance in all things is actually the best way; (although not mechanically unfortunately as far as the game is concerned.)

Quote from Shepherd_Hubbard >>

Quote from pangurjan >>

Quote from Shepherd_Hubbard >> 

I'm stating it explicitley, Drow have free will.

 

Then that should settle it with regards to absolute alignment, no? Can't have free will if everyone must needs be have an evil alignment. 

 My pureblood Sith in SWTOR has Free Will.  She also has a racial affinity for the dark side of the force.  Is alignment a factor of Will?

As per all the rest of my post, having something is a different matter than using it.  If I know that taking action X is going to earn me 40 lashes, then I will excersize my free will by choosing to avoid whatever it is that is going earn me 40 lashes.  If the thing that is going to earn me 40 lashes is showing mercy to an enemy, then over time I learn not to do that.  Similarly, if I'm rewarded for a certain behavior, I am going excersise my free will to choose to do whatever it is that gets me a reward.  If the thing that is going to get me a reward is chopping the heards off of an enemy, than over time I learn to that as often as I can.  This combined with not knowing, at least innitially, of any other, better ways; i.e being kept ignorant of them.  This is conditioning.  The society churns out evil characters by only reinforcing those social behaviors and not even teaching what 'good' behaviors are.

But learned behaviour is not innate and is a matter of circumstance. Any character not part of this society, for whatever reason, will not be subjected to this conditioning. Any character with a grievance against this society might be predisposed to rebel against it. Any character victimized by this society might feel a need to buck the system, since adhering to it has resulted in their suffering. None of these may be common outcomes, but free will guarantees they can't be ruled out. And that's the whole point of changing absolute alignments to normative ones that can be deviated from. 

 

But learned behaviour is not innate and is a matter of circumstance. Any character not part of this society, for whatever reason, will not be subjected to this conditioning. Any character with a grievance against this society might be predisposed to rebel against it. Any character victimized by this society might feel a need to buck the system, since adhering to it has resulted in their suffering. None of these may be common outcomes, but free will guarantees they can't be ruled out. And that's the whole point of changing absolute alignments to normative ones that can be deviated from. 

 

 Correct, the behavior is not innate in Drow as I was arguing it is in Orcs, the behavior is learned, and specifically learned by Drow who are still ruled by Lolth.  Correct, Drow from beyond Lolths reach are not necessarily subject to this conditioning, presuming they didn't purposefully bring it with them rather than escape from; it or be born where it just isn't practiced.  Yes; the PC's actually should be predisposed towards trying to unmake such a society.  Perhaps, but agian it's easier said than done to buck such a system even if you want to.  Drizzit's father for example  was going to try to buck the system, by murdering Drizzit, when he thought Drizzit had been successfully indocrtinated by said system.  Drizzit's father never did try to escape the system himself though.  Correct, free will is the reason why there can be PC's moddled after Drizzit, a rare and exceptional representetive of his race.  ...Perhaps; but all of this still applies specifically to the Drow.  It doesnt necessarily mean that just because Drow have free will and can deviate from their typical alignment of that setting, that it should necessarily follow that so can Orcs, or Mind Flayers, or Beholders, etc.  It's a case by case thing I think and still should not be a sweeping across the board errata for every creature type.

I didn't want to name names, but there are people who have little if any connection to the D&D community but large platforms otherwise who have joined in the anti "woke" faction. Such people may have existed in the past, but they weren't the sort who would ever willingly call themselves geeks. 

From what I know.

Correllan bled and his blood became primal elves, they were shapeshifters.
Loth convinced the primal elves to give up their mutable forms for more powerful a form, becoming elves.
Correllan saw this as a betrayal and banished them to the material plane from the eleven heaven.
Some elves realized their mistake and some were unrepentant choosing to worship Loth instead.
The Loth worshiping elves were turned into Drow and forced underground by the Correllan worshiping elves.

You can find out more about Drow on
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drow

Quote from FinalKingdomHearts >>

From what I know.

Correllan bled and his blood became primal elves, they were shapeshifters.
Loth convinced the primal elves to give up their mutable forms for more powerful a form, becoming elves.
Correllan saw this as a betrayal and banished them to the material plane from the eleven heaven.
Some elves realized their mistake and some were unrepentant choosing to worship Loth instead.
The Loth worshiping elves were turned into Drow and forced underground by the Correllan worshiping elves.

You can find out more about Drow on
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drow

 Yes that was the old FR lore. But they originated on Greyhawk as far as I know, not on FR. So the FR lore is already a reinterpretation. Not that there's anything bad with that.

nods, but mmmm, that is a terrific page of Lore thoguh.  That's exactly the kind of details I like to have.

Luckily for you, you have them!  And on a wiki, no less - I'm impressed it wasn't homebrew garbage.  Nevertheless, there you go - all the rich lore details you could ever need for your A.C.E.F. slavemongering spider-worshipping drow.  Bangin'.  The base books can now remain clean of Faerunian lore nobodsy else needs, ne?

I have them now; thank you FinalKingdomHearts!  Yeah, this'll do me nicely. 

Perhaps.  Again though, the base books being a new players first exposure to the game and possibly to it's lore means that they arrive at session 0 with only the knowledge from those books.  I can't neccesarily count on them having researched up links like this berforehand, or even that they will after I give it to them.  It's not too big a problem really, but it still does change that dynamic by meaning a player will arrive at my table expecting to be able to play a certain kind of character by default, and then maybe be disapointed when I tell them I have more restrictive rules than the RAW, rather than knowing what to expect in the first place and being pleasantly surprised, when I tell them not to worry about it because my rules aren't quite as restrictive as the RAW.  They've flipped who has to be Ogre, around on me.  It's alright I suppose; I think I've got a handle on it.

Unfortunately that's simply part of being a DM.  It's the DM's job to make calls and impose reasonable limits on a given game.  If you're working with straight-up brand new players who've never been exposed to D&D before, I would find it difficult to believe they've gone over the books without your input - almost no one "gets into" D&D on the player side without either being introduced by an existing DM or being at a table where somebody gets voted DM right off and everybody goes over the options together.  I'm sure it has happened before that a completely random DM has caught someone who's gotten just enough into the books to lock onto what they want to play and then had to wrestle them into a game where their lock-on didn't work, but that's an edge case and also, like I said, part of being a DM.

Plus, look at it this way: if someone shows up at your table and refuses to read/listen/talk to you about your game's lore, demands to be allowed to play their special-snowflake thing even if it doesn't fit, and is querrulous and intransigent over it?  Congratulations: you're well forewarned over who the Problem Player at your table is, and if they're rotten enough over it you're free as a DM to tell them that your table seems a poor fit for them and wish them luck finding another one.  You don't have to put up with bad behavior because Faerunian lore isn't the default anymore; if someone's being a dickfairy about working with you on fitting into your game, give 'em the boot.  They did it to thesself and they'll know it.

Quote from Shepherd_Hubbard >>

Again though, the base books being a new players first exposure to the game and possibly to it's lore means that they arrive at session 0 with only the knowledge from those books. 

Or not even that. I've played with plenty of new players, and the far greater majority weren't all that interested in lore starting out. Things like creation mythology and the like have little or no value for people just starting out, playing straightforward adventures that almost never touch on deep lore. None of the official campaigns rely on more than the absolute minimum of setting knowledge, whatever more specific setting lore is relevant (if any) will be covered during the adventuring. If I'd expect new players to read more than a simple primer about whatever stuff is pertinent for their character, I'd probably lose half of them before we get to the first session. That sort of stuff doesn't need to take up space in the PHB, for most people it'd just be filler they'll never read.

Quote from Kotath >>

And on that, way back in 1e, there was no player lore for them. They were a completely unknown race to PC's to be discovered towards the end of an epic adventure. And even then the PC's were not handed the history on any platter. Why, exactly, should PC's know everything about worlds up front anyway?

 Well, back then you couldn't play one either.  It works both ways.  A player doesn't need to know all the Lore about every NPC in the setting; but I would want them to be familiar enough with the Lore behind their very own character such that I wouldn' thave to constantly remind or correct them about basic things like - "those powers don't work in the sunshine."

Quote from Shepherd_Hubbard >>

Quote from Kotath >>

And on that, way back in 1e, there was no player lore for them. They were a completely unknown race to PC's to be discovered towards the end of an epic adventure. And even then the PC's were not handed the history on any platter. Why, exactly, should PC's know everything about worlds up front anyway?

 Well, back then you couldn't play one either.  It works both ways.  A player doesn't need to know all the Lore about every NPC in the setting; but I would want them to be familiar enough with the Lore behind their very own character such that I wouldn' thave to constantly remind or correct them about basic things like - "those powers don't work in the sunshine."

That sort of basic stuff should be/is mentioned with the relevant mechanics. It's not something a player should find out about through a lore deep dive, it'll be in the actual rules part of the books. 

Quote from Shepherd_Hubbard >>

Quote from Kotath >>

And on that, way back in 1e, there was no player lore for them. They were a completely unknown race to PC's to be discovered towards the end of an epic adventure. And even then the PC's were not handed the history on any platter. Why, exactly, should PC's know everything about worlds up front anyway?

 Well, back then you couldn't play one either.  It works both ways.  A player doesn't need to know all the Lore about every NPC in the setting; but I would want them to be familiar enough with the Lore behind their very own character such that I wouldn' thave to constantly remind or correct them about basic things like - "those powers don't work in the sunshine."

So there's something called a character sheet where important factors like that are recorded, because as Pang points out, that's a mechanical component to the player race not "lore."  

I also want to point out you are making very broad arguments based in no real understanding of the game's history.  "Back then when players couldn't play Drow either" was a very brief period of time in the game's history.  Drow start getting represented in the old school fashion you hold dear in 78 or so as elements of the D series of modules, and get much more fleshed out to resonate with your rough understanding around 1980.  1985 Unearthed Arcana, the AD&D book comes out allowing for Drow as a playable race.  And if you don't think folks weren't already playing Drow prior to that book, you may want to look at what those arms deep in homebrew are up to.

I can't think of a single PC race that gets the deep lore dive in any editions PHB that would meet the sort of standard you're bemoaning as lost now to new players.  It's just a bogus argument, expecting every player to come to a table with a lore understanding on the same level as any DM.  That standard is fine for some sort of insular D&D clique building, but as it was explained before you came into this thread, and has been explained to you at least twice to you specifically since your arrival, both the "business" and "creative" sides of D&D clearly see no need in maintaining that sort of integral implicit gatekeeping for a lot of reasons (that have been largely exhausted, twice and again in reiteration for your benefit).

Any DM whose been playing enough knows how to deliver lore through exposition when needed but more through PC focused play through contextual narration.  Letting your table know what Drow are in your game world just isn't as hard as you plaintive postings seem to be making it.  Coaching a character to play a player race you have certain hang ups on a very specific way you want to play isn't hard.  The game's collaborative, not a dictatorship.  If a DM can't accommodate players, they wind up playing in their own world by themselves on a number of levels.

Lolth, the Spider Queen

Lolth is an ancient goddess who spins webs of deceit and feeds on destruction and chaos. The Spider Queen maintains a stranglehold over her Underdark cult of drow elves, severing them from the rest of the world.

Millennia ago, Lolth ignited a divine war between elven gods, sundering the elven peoples forever. She then convinced a group of drow elves to follow her to the Underdark—where they remain her fanatical worshippers to this day.

Callidae

Far to the North lies Callidae; an Aevendrow enclave built of glittering ice. Few recall its location and even fewer know the secrets long guarded at its heart.

Even as some of their kin followed Lolth down to the Underdark, many drow elves rejected her, remaining true to their innate integrity. One band ventured north, vanishing from history behind curtains of snow, aurora, and illusion. They became the Aevendrow—or Starlight Elves—a highly secretive clan steeped in powerful magic.

The Aevendrow remain untainted by Lolth’s influence, and life in Callidae is radically different from that of oppressive Menzoberranzan. Yet, though many would rejoice to see it, almost no one—including the longest-lived elves—can quite remember its existence.

Saekolath

The teeming southern jungles conceal the drow elf city of Saekolath, populated by the Lorendrow—dwellers in the endless green.

Head far enough south and one enters the territory of the Lorendrow, or “Greenshadow Elves.” Far from the Spider Queen and her terrors, the Lorendrow draw their wisdom from their environment: the generosity of earth; the mystery of sky; and the complex harmony of forest.

Their verdant city is Saekolath—“Place of Shade”—and it wends between towering trees and chattering rivers. Even the most knowledgeable bard would be hard-pressed to sing its histories, and few northern adventurers have ever reached its borders.

.... I do not know what to say.

I see no contradiction in those two blurbs?

What's the anger issue now.

That's just something I picked off the top of my head.  The point is there is plenty of Lore and most of it isn't in the PHB.  All it says about Drow are:

As a drow, you are infused with the magic of the Underdark, an underground realm of wonders and horrors rarely seen on the surface above. You are at home in shadows and, thanks to your innate magic, learn to conjure forth both light and darkness. Your kin tend to have stark white hair and grayish skin of many hues.

The cult of the god Lolth, Queen of Spiders, has corrupted some of the oldest drow cities, especially in the worlds of Oerth and Toril. Eberron, Krynn, and other realms have escaped the cult’s influence—for now. Wherever the cult lurks, drow heroes stand on the front lines in the war against it, seeking to sunder Lolth’s web.

Ability Score Increase. Your Charisma score increases by 1.

Superior Darkvision. Your darkvision has a radius of 120 feet.

Sunlight Sensitivity. You have disadvantage on attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight when you, the target of your attack, or whatever you are trying to perceive is in direct sunlight.

Drow Magic. You know the dancing lights cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the faerie fire spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. When you reach 5th level, you can cast the darkness spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

Drow Weapon Training. You have proficiency with rapiers, shortswords, and hand crossbows.

and it's already a blurp that doesn't quite jive with the lore on that linked page.  At the very least, this part:

The cult of the god Lolth, Queen of Spiders, has corrupted some of the oldest drow cities, especially in the worlds of Oerth and Toril. Eberron, Krynn, and other realms have escaped the cult’s influence—for now. Wherever the cult lurks, drow heroes stand on the front lines in the war against it, seeking to sunder Lolth’s web.

would convey things more accurately if it read:

The goddess Lolth, Queen of the Demonweb pits, has corrupted most Drow cities, expecially in worlds of Oerth and Toril.  Eberron, Krynn, and other realms have escaped the Spider Queens influence --for now.  Wherever Lolths minions lurk, great heores stand on the front lines in the war to sunder Lolths web.

Even then 'corrupted the cities' is slightly off.

----

Also, no, the mechanics are slightly different.  5e only conveyes disadvantage on attack rolls and perception checks.  It doesn't say that some of your magic literally stops working in sunlight.

So drow heroes aren't allowed to stand against the evil of the Spider Queen?

I'm actually about to start a campaign where I'm playing a drow.  We had Session Zero last night, it went very well.  My drow character is an Oath of the Watchers paladin, a lost daughter of the Umbragen people that stand vigil in the depths of Xen'drik against the daelkyr, their warped, aberrant minions, and any other twisted denizens of Khyber that dare to waggle their tentacles an inch too far out of their holes.

Imagine those are a whole bunch of words you're not familiar with...because Mistletoe is a drow of Eberron, not a drow of Faerun.  Mistletoe has never heard of Lolth before in her life, "Menzoberranzen" is a weird too-long word with no meaning, and Misty would be mortally offended at the idea that her people are one of the threats great heroes must stand against.  Her people are heroes - they're the thin red line that holds the world-ending horrors of Khyber at bay so the sun-drowned nitwits in the lands above can waste a hundred years of their time on dumb shit like a war of succession.  But no one on Khorvaire has heard of the Umbragen save those people who've personally met Misty, and they never would have if not for a mission gone horribly pear-shaped and a few weeks of maddened wanderings through the outermost tunnels of the Deepest Hive.

That whole "Lolth corrupted all the drow cities and great heroes have to stand against them" thing?  It's less than useless for Misty, and any other drow from Eberron.  It actively confuses the issue, detracts from and contradicts the proper Eberron lore for the drow.

So why is it in the PHB?  Why is it in the neutral, core book the settings books are supposed to build on, instead of shoveled into the Faerun setting book Wizards is too something-or-other to write?