D&D: WotC’s New Lore Changes Raise Questions Among Players

The vast majority of people can tell the difference between reality and games quite easily. The thing is, our mentalities, our views, our modalities are all shaped by our surroundings. What we read and play is a part of that. If you read books that have lots of swearing, you'll find that your own language will include bad language. If you read lots of books that have a Nationalistic bent to them, you'll start noticing things in a Nationalistic way. If you read lots of books that mock and downgrade the French, you'll find that your own attitude towards the French will slip. That doesn't mean that if you play GTA, you'll become a school shooter. That's silly. However, the media you consume normalises certain things which influences you, even if only subconsciously.

If WotC recognised this and decided that they didn't want to be a part of encouraging people to view race as a determinant of morality or behaviour, then that's upto to them and perhaps to be commended. If I remember rightly though, that wasn't their motivation at all. In the explanation letter fornthe errata, itnwas just that they didn't want to guide people into choosing a certain alignment when creating characters. So player races have had the alignment removed, while non player races haven't.

It wasn't ever really about being woke or not. They felt that it wouod improve character creation and that's it. You're welcome to disagree on that, it's just not a "woke v non woke" thing.

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

Quote from Grunk999 >>

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

 People from outside the hobby, predisposed to control their children, who didn't know what they were talking about VS people from inside the hobby who have first hand experience how the depiction of the other in dnd has influenced their life for the worse. Hmmm a real though choice there.

Quote from Grunk999 >>

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

Did you miss the part where I said the lingering effects on people's thoughts is not even the most immediate effect of racially insensitive language, but rather it is the immediate retraumatizing of people who are already hurt? Is that not enough?

Quote from Grunk999 >>

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

This comparison of what folks are endeavoring to communicate regarding overall harm reduction and inclusive gaming to the Satanic Panic is incredibly off base.  Like literally incredibly in that I find it hard to believe a mind participating in this discussion in good faith would make that association unless like others they simply want the conversation to go away.  "I was there" too and if you're seeing a correlation between that and what WotC has been doing with their editorial direction I have to question whether you really understand what happened back then in the 80s.

The Satanic Panic (S.P.) was hysteria over games, styles of music, I'd say comic books but the mainstream ones had already caved to the Comics Code Authority (CCA) decades before and the 'underground' comics scene was more truly fugitive and marginal back then to the degree that the S.P. movement wouldn't have known who to point the blame finger at (kinda like TTRPGs), etc. - hysteria that certain self-styled community leaders fear mongered to create organized efforts to use the tools of government (regulation in terms of book/game banning from libraries and school systems, record labeling, and a couple of instances of bogus prosecution that went nowhere other than a waste of public resources and the loss of time and stress inflicted on the accused) to combat what they deemed a "subversive" force in America that they felt perpetuated late 60 early 70s counter cultural questioning or disregard or disrespect for "commonly held" authority, an earlier "culture war" that so called moral majoritarians thought they won in 1980.  Despite the truth that the kids actually were all right (see what I did there?) the alarmists framed white christian middle class values contending with frankly adolescent irreverence toward those values as a battle between good vs. evil. Decades prior there was a movie "Rebel without a Cause," this was the sequel "Authorities without a Clue."

Editorial decisions in the present moment aren't that at all.  It's not industry rolling over to appease ill informed outrage (like the CCA, MPAA, record labeling system etc ... note the TTRPG industry never really had to perform that sort of show).  It's an effort by industry to adapt its product to maximize its market share.  Those moves happen to align with the values of a not insignificant portion of the growing TTRPG player community who want to see their games more welcoming to all (and that alignment seems good for business).  One of the ways industry does that alignment is by doing a close reading and hard think over norms and tropes that are inessential to the game (I say inessential because I don't think anyone can say folks playing Orcs the so called "new way" are not playing D&D).  This requires nuanced thinking into the academically well documented analysis of race and colonialist tropes in the myths and fantasies from which a lot of D&D is derived (surprised no one's brought up colonialism ... another factor in the rethink of humanoid races is humanoids are a stand in for colonial ventures and "open frontier" myths ... open aside from the "savages" who were there first).  If someone wants to play the old tropes, they can without a hearing on the matter.  It's just that the new defaults give the game a lot more options than that, and options that are more in line with many other players' ideas of what fantasy role playing can be.  

Quote from Shepherd_Hubbard >>

Quote from Third_Sundering >>

Quote from Shepherd_Hubbard>>

Quote from Kotath>>

 You do not seem to mind such variations in Halflings or Elves, so why do Orcs bother you so much?

On the one hand, the variations exist for orcs too in the sense that if I had a player who really wanted to play a full-blooded Orc character rather than settlig for a half-orc, I'd make it happen for them with the same caveat that they understand their character is exceptional, but if the party ends up facing down Orc opponents, it should generally be understood those Orcs are evil.  I can also see the concept of an Orc subtype that is akin to Orc's as a whole what Drow and Duergar are to Elves and Dwarves, so there is a ready option from which to draw good Orcs - I believe Faerun has Grey Orcs; and while poking about the net I came across this Yellow Orc (5e Race) - D&D Wiki (dandwiki.com). 

Yeah, Yellow Orcs (and Red Orcs) are both from Mystara. And they're both extremely racist. They were explicitly based off of East Asians (primarily Mongolians), and are a major problem. (Red Orcs were based off of Native Americans, and were just as bad.)

If you want better examples of different styles of orcish cultures that aren't extremely racist or monotonous (like almost all of Greyhawk's and the Forgotten Realms' Orcs), look up the Orcish cultures of Eberron and Exandria.

(Eberron's Orcs still have the "primal" and "passionate" themes of most orcs, but use it for good. They saved the world once by imprisoning some eldritch abominations that were going to corrupt everything/everyone and take over the world, and they're primarily druids, which is a craft that they were taught by an Ancient Black Dragon. Exandria's Orcs were originally cursed by Gruumsh to be like Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms' Orcs, but they can break free of that curse. There's a lot of different cultures that they can have, most of them just end up having the same culture as others around them, but a lot of them worship Kord or the Luxon.)

On the other hand however, like the 'Cops-and-Robbers' analogy from a few posts ago, at least part of this game can can be boiled down to 'Heroes-and-Monsters' as the simplest and most reduced expression of the dualist conflict theme.  I'm bothered by the executive decision to shift-click so many creature types out of the Monster Box and into the Heroes Box.  Orcs in particular, and Goblins as well, being of the classic and therefor most-favored and well known go-to monster types that fans of the genre are already familiar with and love to see.  Rather than taking it as a given that monsters are just monsters however, folks are pre-supposing their apparent 'humanity', and are exclaiming at me: "It's harmful to describe a group of PEOPLE in such a fashion".

...and I'm sitting here feeling like someone's just told me I should be vegan because it's wrong to eat people...  

Now, I get that some people see the descriptions, are reminded of RL human history, and are upset by the reminder; but aside from changing the nature of my world; which I don't want to do and don't like that WotC is doing it; I don't know how to reconcile their feelings about the subject with mine: that it is a necessity for this game to have clearly defined and distinct monsters that are not there to be sympathised with or have 'humanity' imposed upon them; they are there to be obsticales in your path while on a heroic quest -thats the function and purpose of that particualr creation.   

Yes, it is harmful to describe whole races of people as being "monsters" or "100% evil". Because if a game says that it's okay to label a whole race of people as evil and commit genocide against them, like it or not, that will influence people in the real world. 

Like we've given examples for, Orcs haven't been universally evil for at least 25 years. That's older than I am. The same applies to Drow, Goblinoids, Gnolls, Giants, Yuan-Ti, and so on. This is not a new change. If you didn't complain about it back then, you probably shouldn't be complaining about it now. 

And like we've said before, you are absolutely free to keep those races as "kill on sight" monsters at your table. No one has said otherwise. If you and your players like that style of play keep doing it. The reason why WotC is making this errata and similar changes is to open up the base game to allow for a more diverse amount of playstyles. They're not doing anything for/to you, so there's no reason for you to care about this. They're doing this for people like me that don't have those races as mono-cultural monsters, and supporting both playstyles at the same time. Me having my cake doesn't take away your cake.

And, like we've said, there have been real people harmed by past depictions of these races. The Vistani were racist. Yellow and Red Orcs are racist. Drow had awful and bigoted implications (that dark skin is a curse). Hobgoblins are still based off of multiple parts of Japanese culture (they still wear Samurai Armor/Ninja Clothing in their 5e art). 

That's the reason for the changes. Not to tell you that you can't keep playing D&D how you want, but to get rid of the parts of it that were harming people, and to make it more inclusive. If it doesn't effect you and isn't hurting anyone else, you have no right to complain about it. 

I have this sinking feeling that when I aquiesse on the subject of Orcs, -given what I've been told about about Gary, and also about Tolkiens origonal intentions; and some of those links to other players experiences;- and decide "alright let's shift Orcs out of the Monster Category and henceforth afford them 'humanity' with all the dignity and respect due to all people that comes with it"; than it wont be much longer before nearly ALL my monsters are people instead: that's going to change the nature of my world...  

The thing is . . . Gary didn't care about Tolkien's original intentions for symbolism in the orcs. He didn't care. If he did, he would have used it. He would have coded Orcs as being ultra-industrial. He would have made them warlike in an attempt to spread the message that war is hell and it destroys everything. He didn't do that. He didn't respect Tolkien's depictions of Orcs. (To be honest, if there's one thing that Gary Gygax was definitely not, it was respectful towards other people's IPs. He stole from everything; the Cthulhu Mythos, Middle Earth, Jack Vacne's Dying Earth series, and so on.) 

However, if you want to have Orcs in your world be more like Tolkien's Orcs, feel free to do that. Have them be uber-industrial and militaristic. Have them pollute the world and try to turn it all into Mordor. Have them be pure embodiments of what Tolkien thought were the worst parts of humanity (war, industrialization, destruction/corruption of nature, unemphatic, etc). Have them be a corrupted type of Elf to show what can happen when the best parts of society are inverted. If you want your Orcs to be respectful to Tolkien's intent for them . . . don't use D&D Orcs. Any of them. They're not what you're looking for it you're looking for Tolkien's Orcs. 

Again, as I pointed out earlier, Tolkien was conflicted whether or not Orcs in Middle Earth are/should be totally irredeemable. If you want truly irredeemable bad guys, use Gygax's Orcs. If you want symbolism for the worst parts of society, while possibly being redeemable, use Tolkien's Orcs. If you want fantasy-inserts for real world marginalized peoples to illustrate how unfair the world is to those people, use the Elder Scrolls' Orcs/Orsimer or Exandria's Kryn Dynasty Orcs. 

There's a variety of options. . .  and that's a good thing. That's a really good thing. More options means that it's more likely for any one of them to click for somebody and make them get into D&D. If you want mono-cultural orcs that are only used as cannon-fodder in adventures for D&D combat . . . frankly, that's a really bad idea, both for the hobby and for story telling. Diversity is a good thing. 

 nods, I've just watched my favorite youtube optimizer do a build for a psionicist using an Ebberon Orc.  It was cool build.

Edit: delete

Nods, that's what I'm thinking, maybe homebrew my Orcs to better match tolkeins. They can have a redemption path, I just need a mguffin to sever them from their dark lords influence.  

 

Actually, Tolkien was wrong about the origins of orcs, and he was conflicted just because he was ignorant about his religion, and it also ties to D&D

Quote from MidnightPlat >>

Quote from Grunk999 >>

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

 

This comparison of what folks are endeavoring to communicate regarding overall harm reduction and inclusive gaming to the Satanic Panic is incredibly off base.  Like literally incredibly in that I find it hard to believe a mind participating in this discussion in good faith would make that association unless like others they simply want the conversation to go away.  "I was there" too and if you're seeing a correlation between that and what WotC has been doing with their editorial direction I have to question whether you really understand what happened back then in the 80s.

The Satanic Panic (S.P.) was hysteria over games, styles of music, I'd say comic books but the mainstream ones had already caved to the Comics Code Authority (CCA) decades before and the 'underground' comics scene was more truly fugitive and marginal back then to the degree that the S.P. movement wouldn't have known who to point the blame finger at (kinda like TTRPGs), etc. - hysteria that certain self-styled community leaders fear mongered to create organized efforts to use the tools of government (regulation in terms of book/game banning from libraries and school systems, record labeling, and a couple of instances of bogus prosecution that went nowhere other than a waste of public resources and the loss of time and stress inflicted on the accused) to combat what they deemed a "subversive" force in America that they felt perpetuated late 60 early 70s counter cultural questioning or disregard or disrespect for "commonly held" authority, an earlier "culture war" that so called moral majoritarians thought they won in 1980.  Despite the truth that the kids actually were all right (see what I did there?) the alarmists framed white christian middle class values contending with frankly adolescent irreverence toward those values as a battle between good vs. evil. Decades prior there was a movie "Rebel without a Cause," this was the sequel "Authorities without a Clue."

Editorial decisions in the present moment aren't that at all.  It's not industry rolling over to appease ill informed outrage (like the CCA, MPAA, record labeling system etc ... note the TTRPG industry never really had to perform that sort of show).  It's an effort by industry to adapt its product to maximize its market share.  Those moves happen to align with the values of a not insignificant portion of the growing TTRPG player community who want to see their games more welcoming to all (and that alignment seems good for business).  One of the ways industry does that alignment is by doing a close reading and hard think over norms and tropes that are inessential to the game (I say inessential because I don't think anyone can say folks playing Orcs the so called "new way" are not playing D&D).  This requires nuanced thinking into the academically well documented analysis of race and colonialist tropes in the myths and fantasies from which a lot of D&D is derived (surprised no one's brought up colonialism ... another factor in the rethink of humanoid races is humanoids are a stand in for colonial ventures and "open frontier" myths ... open aside from the "savages" who were there first).  If someone wants to play the old tropes, they can without a hearing on the matter.  It's just that the new defaults give the game a lot more options than that, and options that are more in line with many other players' ideas of what fantasy role playing can be.  

You took my comment out of context. There was at least one person claiming that playing fantasy games influences real life behavior. That's what I was specifically responding to. During the Satanic panic, groups claimed that playing D&D would negatively influence real world behavior. For the vast majority of people it didn't.

Quote from Grunk999 >>

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

I was there. LOL I still have on my bookshelf the copy of “Like Lambs to the Slaughter” I was given by my friend’s ultra-religious family after learning of my hobby in like 1988 or something. It is vital to note that very few, if any, of the people pushing the claims behind the Satanic Panic were players of the game or members of the TTRPG hobby community. They were in no position to assess the nature of the game or the possibility of harm, having never played the game. They were acting on speculation and hysteria, having never played the game. They wanted to stop as many people as they could from playing. 

In contrast, in this discussion you have heard from active members of the TTRPG community, most of whom are players, describing the deleterious nature of older, less “woke” materials as relevant to their actual life experiences. People in the position to asses the nature of the game and the possibility of harm, having played the game. People acting upon reality and facts, having played the game. These people want to get as many people as they can playing. 

How can anyone reasonably claim these are similar?

Quote from Ophidimancer >>

Quote from Grunk999 >>

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

Did you miss the part where I said the lingering effects on people's thoughts is not even the most immediate effect of racially insensitive language, but rather it is the immediate retraumatizing of people who are already hurt? Is that not enough?

I interpreted your post and others to be a blanket statements, meaning "everyone" is effected. If you were referring to some people rather than everyone, then yes, it's enough. I acknowledge their feelings, I just have an issue with people making broad brush statements

Quote from Grunk999 >>

Quote from MidnightPlat >>

Quote from Grunk999 >>

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

 

<Midnightplat's historical comparision snipped>

 

 

You took my comment out of context. There was at least one person claiming that playing fantasy games influences real life behavior. That's what I was specifically responding to. During the Satanic panic, groups claimed that playing D&D would negatively influence real world behavior. For the vast majority of people it didn't.

Right gotcha.  Yeah, what we're seeing there seems to be people reacting to some articulations of trauma theory (with examples provided by some posters' experiences} by invoking theories behind media depictions of fictional violence's correlation to instances of real world violence.  It's an apples and oranges conversation where some folks are talking about effects of trauma and others are contesting it with their understanding of causes of violence.  Yeah, both are talking about "the mind" but are really talking past each other.  And other posters are trying to thread the needle between the two.

Quote from Grunk999 >>

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

Fiction does influence real life--countless studies have demonstrated that marginalization of cultures and identities in fiction results in promulgation of those negative stereotypes in the general populace and internalization of negativity by the members of those marginalized groups.

And that is why your post is a false equivalency.  

The Satanic Panic of the 80s (or 90s with Magic: the Gathering, or 2000s with Harry Potter) are about changing behavior--those who buy into the Satanic Panic nonsense believe that a particular work of fiction are going to morph individuals from their normal selves into something completely different.  That is unsupported by science. 

Here is a completely different situation.  In this case, the problematic fiction is not changing minds, it is affirming stereotypes that already exist within people's minds.  The overwhelming data shows that type of affirmation does have massive negative effects on marginalized individuals, either causing them distress or actively turning them away from the game.  

And that is why these kinds of changes are needed--Wizards should not try to affirm negativity, given the well-documented effects such affirmation can cause. 

Quote from Grunk999 >>

Quote from Ophidimancer >>

Quote from Grunk999 >>

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

Did you miss the part where I said the lingering effects on people's thoughts is not even the most immediate effect of racially insensitive language, but rather it is the immediate retraumatizing of people who are already hurt? Is that not enough?

I interpreted your post and others to be a blanket statements, meaning "everyone" is effected. If you were referring to some people rather than everyone, then yes, it's enough. I acknowledge their feelings, I just have an issue with people making broad brush statements

Every person of color in our society has experienced racial trauma to some degree or other and I would argue that white people also suffer, in that the privilege of being insulated from this comes at an opportunity cost in empathy and compassion. I'm not going to say this is a blanket universal, but I don't think it needs to be in order to say that whatever your "issue" is ... stow it. I really don't feel like you're bringing anything productive to the conversation, it feels like you just keep making comments sniping at points and aren't here to further anyone's ideas or make a stand about anything. Do you really honestly think that the recent changes represent the kind of fear mongering and xenophobia that we saw with the Satanic Panic?

Quote from Born_of_fire74 >>

Quote from Grunk999 >>

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

I was there. LOL I still have on my bookshelf the copy of “Like Lambs to the Slaughter” I was given by my friend’s ultra-religious family after learning of my hobby in like 1988 or something. It is vital to note that very few, if any, of the people pushing the claims behind the Satanic Panic were players of the game or members of the TTRPG hobby community. They were in no position to assess the nature of the game or the possibility of harm, having never played the game. They were acting on speculation and hysteria, having never played the game. They wanted to stop as many people as they could from playing. 

For those who have never seen it and want a glimpse into that mindset, the hilariously ridiculous Mazes and Monsters (starring a baby Tom Hanks!) is on Tubi, the free streaming service

Quote from Grunk999 >> 

You took my comment out of context. There was at least one person claiming that playing fantasy games influences real life behavior. That's what I was specifically responding to. During the Satanic panic, groups claimed that playing D&D would negatively influence real world behavior. For the vast majority of people it didn't.

Playing fantasy games is, itself, a real life behavior. You can't be horrible to real life people playing fantasy games and be excused just because you were doing it within the context of a fantasy game.

Quote from Ophidimancer >>

Quote from Grunk999 >>

Quote from Ophidimancer >>

Quote from Grunk999 >>

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

Did you miss the part where I said the lingering effects on people's thoughts is not even the most immediate effect of racially insensitive language, but rather it is the immediate retraumatizing of people who are already hurt? Is that not enough?

I interpreted your post and others to be a blanket statements, meaning "everyone" is effected. If you were referring to some people rather than everyone, then yes, it's enough. I acknowledge their feelings, I just have an issue with people making broad brush statements

 Do you really honestly think that the recent changes represent the kind of fear mongering and xenophobia that we saw with the Satanic Panic?

No, The changes made by WoTC are not on the same level as the Satanic panic. My point was limited to fictions influence/impact on behavior.

Quote from Ophidimancer >>

Quote from Grunk999 >> 

You took my comment out of context. There was at least one person claiming that playing fantasy games influences real life behavior. That's what I was specifically responding to. During the Satanic panic, groups claimed that playing D&D would negatively influence real world behavior. For the vast majority of people it didn't.

Playing fantasy games is, itself, a real life behavior. You can't be horrible to real life people playing fantasy games and be excused just because you were doing it within the context of a fantasy game.

Playing a game isn't behavior. Behavior is the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others. You can engage in behaviors while playing a game, but the act of playing a game is not a behavior in and of itself.

Yes, it's true that people  who are jerks in real life are likely to be jerks at the gaming table. But I'm looking at it from the other direction. I think it's unlikely that someone fighting an Orc in D&D is going to carry over in RL to their treatment of people of color.

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

Quote from Grunk999 >>

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

 

Fiction does influence real life--countless studies have demonstrated that marginalization of cultures and identities in fiction results in promulgation of those negative stereotypes in the general populace and internalization of negativity by the members of those marginalized groups.

 

 

 Can you post a link to some of those studies?

Quote from Grunk999 >> 

No, The changes made by WoTC are not on the same level as the Satanic panic. My point was limited to fictions influence/impact on behavior.

Racism doesn't have to influence others so they become (more) racist in order to be hurtful. Racist ideas are hurtful period. 

Quote from Grunk999 >>

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

Quote from Grunk999 >>

The last few post in this thread about fiction influencing RL reminds me of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

There were groups claiming that playing D&D would turn people into Satan worshiping homicidal maniacs.

That didn't happen....

 

Fiction does influence real life--countless studies have demonstrated that marginalization of cultures and identities in fiction results in promulgation of those negative stereotypes in the general populace and internalization of negativity by the members of those marginalized groups.

 

 

 Can you post a link to some of those studies?

Dude, there has been so much testimony in this and other threads, I treated the misunderstanding you stated we had in good faith (and there is a confused effort by somes to associate trauma theory, racialized and other, with pull the trigger violence), but we're back at it as these threads always seem to do with someone claiming the experiences laid out before them are invalid and they need to show more peer reviewed studies.  This whole discussion, as so many others, was sparked by a grievance from folks who fear game changes, requiring folks to explain to them how said changes does no harm to the game and is actually a good thing in making the game more inviting to other players.  Your planting a flag on the position that wants to invalidate the actual feelings expressed and the actual feelings that the game is moving in a right direction, with no actual harm to your game?

Quote from Kotath >>

Quote from Grunk999 >>

 

You took my comment out of context. There was at least one person claiming that playing fantasy games influences real life behavior. That's what I was specifically responding to. During the Satanic panic, groups claimed that playing D&D would negatively influence real world behavior. For the vast majority of people it didn't.

 

Again, there is a significant difference in that there is zero evidence of anyone being able to cast spells in real life and the vast majority of players did not and do not play Satanists.

On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence of people being racist in real life and plenty of evidence of people playing racists in game. And in this very thread and threads like it of people insisting that systematic racism is necessary in game to facilitate good gameplay.

 I never claimed that those groups said that people would play Satanist in D&D. Rather the claim by these groups was that people would become Satanist and murderers in real life after playing D&D.