If it was another universal class with a free subclass and another 6+ subclasses available like all the others I doubt it wouldn’t be in the top 5. When it comes to utility they are on par with Bards and Rogues, and when it comes to support they are almost on par with Clerics due to their unique combination of buff spells and infusions they can hand out. The Artificer really is just that damned good, and all of their subclasses are actually really solid if you can flow with the random elixirs as they really aren’t as bad as people think they are. And if you can’t then at least the other three subclasses are all still very solid choices.
What you're describing here isn't S-Tier. While popularity isn't quality, neither is an individual's view on the class, which is why polls, as flawed as they are, are generally a better resource. Regardless, being in top 40% of classes (if you changed the class to make it more popular) by your appraisal isn't S-Tier, that's barely above average. I don't think it's bad, it just really doesn't need such a hard nerf as having to go on quests or have additional costs added to perform their core function.
So, you still haven't said what it is that makes you believe that it's not S-tier or what makes other classes better.
There's a lot of scenarios where other classes will outshine Artificer vastly, and there aren't many where Artificer is 100%, bar-none the best pick, but it's not a bad choice in almost any situation or challenge, which is saying something.
👆This.
What that's saying is "A-tier".
No, what that's saying is that if you take things out of context and willfully ignore large parts of what someone says you can make it fit your narrative. ;)
There's a lot of scenarios where other classes will outshine Artificer vastly, and there aren't many where Artificer is 100%, bar-none the best pick, but it's not a bad choice in almost any situation or challenge, which is saying something.
👆This.
What that's saying is "A-tier".
IMO, being “A-Tier” at everything makes them $-Tier.
If it was another universal class with a free subclass and another 6+ subclasses available like all the others I doubt it wouldn’t be in the top 5. When it comes to utility they are on par with Bards and Rogues, and when it comes to support they are almost on par with Clerics due to their unique combination of buff spells and infusions they can hand out. The Artificer really is just that damned good, and all of their subclasses are actually really solid if you can flow with the random elixirs as they really aren’t as bad as people think they are. And if you can’t then at least the other three subclasses are all still very solid choices.
What you're describing here isn't S-Tier. While popularity isn't quality, neither is an individual's view on the class, which is why polls, as flawed as they are, are generally a better resource. Regardless, being in top 40% of classes (if you changed the class to make it more popular) by your appraisal isn't S-Tier, that's barely above average. I don't think it's bad, it just really doesn't need such a hard nerf as having to go on quests or have additional costs added to perform their core function.
So, you still haven't said what it is that makes you believe that it's not S-tier or what makes other classes better.
There's a lot of scenarios where other classes will outshine Artificer vastly, and there aren't many where Artificer is 100%, bar-none the best pick, but it's not a bad choice in almost any situation or challenge, which is saying something.
👆This.
What that's saying is "A-tier".
No, what that's saying is that if you take things out of context and willfully ignore large parts of what someone says you can make it fit your narrative. ;)
Saying that a class is in the top 40% if it's improved pretty much tells you it isn't S-Tier. S-Tier means either the very top or second best when talking about a list of 13. There's not a lot else to say. He then clarified that he meant that it was intended to be limited to in the support role. OK fine, I wasn't talking about the class in a niche, I was talking about the class in general compared to others in general, and I don't really have an opinion on the rankings of support classes. As a result, I don't have a comment to make on it, beyond that it's a bit silly having a tier system among around 4 classes. Ranking makes much more sense.
As for presenting evidence, I've already referenced a poll and another poll has been referenced that show that you're pretty firmly of a minority opinion here. I haven't checked recently, but last time I checked, the poll placed it at 8th place both for class rankings and desire for a party - making them lower second rate bordering on 3rd rate.in return, all we've gotten are repeated "but they are S-Tier!". You're welcome to believe it's a good class. You can believe it's the best class, you're just very much in the minority there.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
If it was another universal class with a free subclass and another 6+ subclasses available like all the others I doubt it wouldn’t be in the top 5. When it comes to utility they are on par with Bards and Rogues, and when it comes to support they are almost on par with Clerics due to their unique combination of buff spells and infusions they can hand out. The Artificer really is just that damned good, and all of their subclasses are actually really solid if you can flow with the random elixirs as they really aren’t as bad as people think they are. And if you can’t then at least the other three subclasses are all still very solid choices.
What you're describing here isn't S-Tier. While popularity isn't quality, neither is an individual's view on the class, which is why polls, as flawed as they are, are generally a better resource. Regardless, being in top 40% of classes (if you changed the class to make it more popular) by your appraisal isn't S-Tier, that's barely above average. I don't think it's bad, it just really doesn't need such a hard nerf as having to go on quests or have additional costs added to perform their core function.
So, you still haven't said what it is that makes you believe that it's not S-tier or what makes other classes better.
There's a lot of scenarios where other classes will outshine Artificer vastly, and there aren't many where Artificer is 100%, bar-none the best pick, but it's not a bad choice in almost any situation or challenge, which is saying something.
👆This.
What that's saying is "A-tier".
No, what that's saying is that if you take things out of context and willfully ignore large parts of what someone says you can make it fit your narrative. ;)
Saying that a class is in the top 40% if it's improved pretty much tells you it isn't S-Tier.
Not sure that anyone said that, but if that's how you want to interpret it, sure.
S-Tier means either the very top or second best when talking about a list of 13.
I can't think of any scenario where picking the Artificer is a bad choice. Honestly can't say that about any other class except maybe the bard.
There's not a lot else to say.
You could answer the question. :)
As for presenting evidence, I've already referenced a poll and another poll has been referenced that show that you're pretty firmly of a minority opinion here.
Sure, but as you have already stated yourself, opinions and popularity has nothing to do with quality. A poll isn't evidence, it's opinions. So you haven't presented anything but opinions to support your claim.
I haven't checked recently, but last time I checked, the poll placed it at 8th place both for class rankings and desire for a party - making them lower second rate bordering on 3rd rate.in return, all we've gotten are repeated "but they are S-Tier!".
Except that I have actually presented arguments for my opinions whereas you have not. I asked you a simple question and you still haven't answered it.
You're welcome to believe it's a good class. You can believe it's the best class, you're just very much in the minority there.
I don't believe anything. I asked you to motivate your stated opinions and back up your claims. So far all you have done is referencing other people's opinions so the question still remains; why?
Saying that a class is in the top 40% if it's improved pretty much tells you it isn't S-Tier. S-Tier means either the very top or second best when talking about a list of 13. There's not a lot else to say. He then clarified that he meant that it was intended to be limited to in the support role. OK fine, I wasn't talking about the class in a niche, I was talking about the class in general compared to others in general, and I don't really have an opinion on the rankings of support classes. As a result, I don't have a comment to make on it, beyond that it's a bit silly having a tier system among around 4 classes. Ranking makes much more sense.
I'm sorry, but I have to admit I'm a bit confused by your statement... who claimed that Artificers are only top-tier if they're improved? Who said that they're only S-Tier as support classes?
Saying that a class is in the top 40% if it's improved pretty much tells you it isn't S-Tier. S-Tier means either the very top or second best when talking about a list of 13. There's not a lot else to say. He then clarified that he meant that it was intended to be limited to in the support role. OK fine, I wasn't talking about the class in a niche, I was talking about the class in general compared to others in general, and I don't really have an opinion on the rankings of support classes. As a result, I don't have a comment to make on it, beyond that it's a bit silly having a tier system among around 4 classes. Ranking makes much more sense.
I'm sorry, but I have to admit I'm a bit confused by your statement... who claimed that Artificers are only top-tier if they're improved? Who said that they're only S-Tier as support classes?
I said they are S-Tier for utility/support classes. That’s probably what they are referring to there. No clue about the “if improved” part though. 🤷♂️
I am wondering about the Artificer Infusions - let's say you want to replicate a magical item. First you need a similar magical item (or at least some sort of basic material that is similar to the original, like a ring for a ring, a pair of boots for a pair of boots, etc.)
Besides finding the material, is it instant? Do you just touch it and it's done? This seems somewhat anticlimactic or boring to me. I am thinking that even if it's not a minimum amount of time required, it should at least be somewhat dramatic or interesting - more interesting than just touching something, and bam, it's magically a copy of another magical item.
The instant version makes it feel like you are basically pushing a button and it's done, which seems somewhat... lame.
Schoobs, did you get a satisfactory answer?
I can't really tell because if the digression into S-level stuff (I have one in Chemistry)
I am wondering about the Artificer Infusions - let's say you want to replicate a magical item. First you need a similar magical item (or at least some sort of basic material that is similar to the original, like a ring for a ring, a pair of boots for a pair of boots, etc.)
Besides finding the material, is it instant? Do you just touch it and it's done? This seems somewhat anticlimactic or boring to me. I am thinking that even if it's not a minimum amount of time required, it should at least be somewhat dramatic or interesting - more interesting than just touching something, and bam, it's magically a copy of another magical item.
The instant version makes it feel like you are basically pushing a button and it's done, which seems somewhat... lame.
Schoobs, did you get a satisfactory answer?
I can't really tell because if the digression into S-level stuff (I have one in Chemistry)
I think so, although to me it ends up being the DM's (i.e. my) discretion. In my campaign it is about using the infused / replicated item to trick someone into thinking that the group is selling someone the item, but in reality they are selling them a functioning duplicate. Obviously it will only work as long as the Artificer allows it to, but it only has to be long enough for the person to buy it and lock it away in their vault, so the time consuming part will be the Artificer trying to make a fake version - so he will need to get the materials, paints, etc. to match the original, and that will probably be the time consuming and complex part of the process.
If they are trying to counterfeit a specific object, like a specificbag of holding for example, then yes I would say you are fully justified in requiring that sort of thing, not because it is an infusion but because it is a counterfeit or a known item. There could even be checks involved in the duplication process, and deception. That makes sense.
If instead it just needs to function as any old bag of holding, then I would say it isn’t justified to require special stuff because then it sets a precedent that makes the entire class not worth playing. If it were my character and you said my infusions all required quests like that I would tell you to get stuffed and either let me make a new character or find someone else for your game. That would be like telling a sorcerer it took 2 weeks to cast a spell, or a fighter they had to make a new sword for every attack. In other words, kinda 🐂💩.
If that’s the case, what I would instead recommend is that you let their character work the way it is intended… and then let whatever ramifications take place to happen when their mark gets wise to the con. Maybe selling counterfeit magic items is a crime in that land, or maybe this person is wealthy enough to send mercs after the party to “make an example of them.” Let those ramifications be the quest. That way there is still a quest related to the scam, but you didn’t nerf the bejeepers outta their character, and they will realize there are repercussions to their actions. Make sense?
Most of the point of replicating a magic item with an infusion is so that you have a Bag of Holding (or w/e) at Level 2. It's darn nice to create a workable replica of a magic item the party needs. And then you can have fun with it and say your artificer made the Bag of Holding out of their Grandma's purse or a pillowcase, and flavor that the magic was done via a particular artisan tool like with splashes of paint, or gems encrusting the opening, or special calligraphy, or yarn embroidery...
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Yes, although in this case it is a very specific magical item that the BBEG has seen, thus the need to make it look like the actual original item. But yes, I agree on the thinking.
Yes, although in this case it is a very specific magical item that the BBEG has seen, thus the need to make it look like the actual original item. But yes, I agree on the thinking.
There you go then. The quest for stuff isn’t to make the infusion, it’s to make it look like the original. That’s totally justifiable.
Yes, although in this case it is a very specific magical item that the BBEG has seen, thus the need to make it look like the actual original item. But yes, I agree on the thinking.
There you go then. The quest for stuff isn’t to make the infusion, it’s to make it look like the original. That’s totally justifiable.
For that, yeah. You might also require something along the lines of a Forgery Kit check, or at least the artisan tools being used to render the imitation aspects, and set a DC based on how appropriate the tool is and how good quality a set of materials they found for attempting the imitation. (Leatherworking to duplicate the fancy patterning on the suede bag, jewelry work to do fancy gem settings, etc.)
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So, you still haven't said what it is that makes you believe that it's not S-tier or what makes other classes better.
No, what that's saying is that if you take things out of context and willfully ignore large parts of what someone says you can make it fit your narrative. ;)
IMO, being “A-Tier” at everything makes them $-Tier.
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Saying that a class is in the top 40% if it's improved pretty much tells you it isn't S-Tier. S-Tier means either the very top or second best when talking about a list of 13. There's not a lot else to say. He then clarified that he meant that it was intended to be limited to in the support role. OK fine, I wasn't talking about the class in a niche, I was talking about the class in general compared to others in general, and I don't really have an opinion on the rankings of support classes. As a result, I don't have a comment to make on it, beyond that it's a bit silly having a tier system among around 4 classes. Ranking makes much more sense.
As for presenting evidence, I've already referenced a poll and another poll has been referenced that show that you're pretty firmly of a minority opinion here. I haven't checked recently, but last time I checked, the poll placed it at 8th place both for class rankings and desire for a party - making them lower second rate bordering on 3rd rate.in return, all we've gotten are repeated "but they are S-Tier!". You're welcome to believe it's a good class. You can believe it's the best class, you're just very much in the minority there.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Not sure that anyone said that, but if that's how you want to interpret it, sure.
I can't think of any scenario where picking the Artificer is a bad choice. Honestly can't say that about any other class except maybe the bard.
You could answer the question. :)
Sure, but as you have already stated yourself, opinions and popularity has nothing to do with quality. A poll isn't evidence, it's opinions. So you haven't presented anything but opinions to support your claim.
I don't believe anything. I asked you to motivate your stated opinions and back up your claims. So far all you have done is referencing other people's opinions so the question still remains; why?
I'm sorry, but I have to admit I'm a bit confused by your statement... who claimed that Artificers are only top-tier if they're improved? Who said that they're only S-Tier as support classes?
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I said they are S-Tier for utility/support classes. That’s probably what they are referring to there. No clue about the “if improved” part though. 🤷♂️
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Schoobs, did you get a satisfactory answer?
I can't really tell because if the digression into S-level stuff (I have one in Chemistry)
I think so, although to me it ends up being the DM's (i.e. my) discretion. In my campaign it is about using the infused / replicated item to trick someone into thinking that the group is selling someone the item, but in reality they are selling them a functioning duplicate. Obviously it will only work as long as the Artificer allows it to, but it only has to be long enough for the person to buy it and lock it away in their vault, so the time consuming part will be the Artificer trying to make a fake version - so he will need to get the materials, paints, etc. to match the original, and that will probably be the time consuming and complex part of the process.
If they are trying to counterfeit a specific object, like a specific bag of holding for example, then yes I would say you are fully justified in requiring that sort of thing, not because it is an infusion but because it is a counterfeit or a known item. There could even be checks involved in the duplication process, and deception. That makes sense.
If instead it just needs to function as any old bag of holding, then I would say it isn’t justified to require special stuff because then it sets a precedent that makes the entire class not worth playing. If it were my character and you said my infusions all required quests like that I would tell you to get stuffed and either let me make a new character or find someone else for your game. That would be like telling a sorcerer it took 2 weeks to cast a spell, or a fighter they had to make a new sword for every attack. In other words, kinda 🐂💩.
If that’s the case, what I would instead recommend is that you let their character work the way it is intended… and then let whatever ramifications take place to happen when their mark gets wise to the con. Maybe selling counterfeit magic items is a crime in that land, or maybe this person is wealthy enough to send mercs after the party to “make an example of them.” Let those ramifications be the quest. That way there is still a quest related to the scam, but you didn’t nerf the bejeepers outta their character, and they will realize there are repercussions to their actions. Make sense?
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Most of the point of replicating a magic item with an infusion is so that you have a Bag of Holding (or w/e) at Level 2. It's darn nice to create a workable replica of a magic item the party needs. And then you can have fun with it and say your artificer made the Bag of Holding out of their Grandma's purse or a pillowcase, and flavor that the magic was done via a particular artisan tool like with splashes of paint, or gems encrusting the opening, or special calligraphy, or yarn embroidery...
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
Yes, although in this case it is a very specific magical item that the BBEG has seen, thus the need to make it look like the actual original item. But yes, I agree on the thinking.
There you go then. The quest for stuff isn’t to make the infusion, it’s to make it look like the original. That’s totally justifiable.
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For that, yeah. You might also require something along the lines of a Forgery Kit check, or at least the artisan tools being used to render the imitation aspects, and set a DC based on how appropriate the tool is and how good quality a set of materials they found for attempting the imitation. (Leatherworking to duplicate the fancy patterning on the suede bag, jewelry work to do fancy gem settings, etc.)
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)