-No combat roles/exploration roles for Crew members/party members outside the # of crew required to work the ship's weapons.
-No Space Hasards/environement rules/tables
-Very vague rules about how you pilot a Spelljammer.
-Non-existing rules about space combat
-Non-existing rules about exploration
-No rules about Downtimes activities in a Spelljammer setting/world.
-No ships upgrades/weapons upgrades
-No rules/tables to create or generate a Solar systeme/Sphere, just 2 examples and a big" PHAT F you dumb arse, that all you get for 60$"
-Lazy as all heck, they've just ripped out the OG maps for the ships from AD&D, the whole think feels like they've just tried to convert 2E Spelljammer but abbandoned half way.
-Super linear and barely interesting adventure.(and ONCE again its a lvl1 to 8-9 ONLY type of adventure)
-1 new magic items and 2 new spells..., for a setting that had like 100's of spelljammer specific items in the past...
There is more things missing than actually included in these "books"...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
The thing is, these "books" aren't really books. The PHB has about 5 times more pages than one of these books, and all three add up to exactly as many pages as Tashas and Xanathars do. This is not a great deal what so ever, especially to people like me who preordered it.
Hell, if we're comparing content I think the most valid one is SCAG, 5e's first supplement and that sucker was released 7 years ago as a sort of campaign guide for the Sword coast region (where they seemed determined to set everything) and to a lesser extent the wider realms.
It didn't come with a monster manual or a module but it had a whack of colorful sub-classes and a "man on the ground" description of the regions most prominent cities and organizations while also covering a staggering number of gods.
Frankly, SCAG (which cost $50.95 canadian) gave me more to work with for building campaigns then spell jammer did for far, far less.
The issue that is being put forward isn't that the books didn't have more content. The issue is being put forward is what content it's missing.
It doesn't have comprehensive ship combat rules, and even Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Descent into Avernus-type rules would have been better than almost nothing. It doesn't have very much information about the Wildspace bubbles you can encounter beyond the few in the adventure module, or even any real tips on how you can homebrew your own beyond it has to have a sun and a number of planets with moons orbiting them (as far as I've seen). It doesn't have methods of upgrading your ship like Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Descent into Avernus have for their vehicles. It only has three magic items, when there could have been more, given the setting. Also a complaint I've seen from time to time is how the ship repair rules seem....odd.
It's not only the volume of content but also the type of content that people are up in arms about.
Beyond that the content they had was (outside of the monster manual) frankly inadequate; the module very much felt like a rough draft and the players guide had a staggering lack of information for how to operate and maintain a spelljammer.
Hell, I'm still puzzled as to why wild space is even a thing since the astral sea should have rolled in to fill the emptieness thus invalidating the prime material plane in it's entirety.
The issue that is being put forward isn't that the books didn't have more content. The issue is being put forward is what content it's missing.
It doesn't have comprehensive ship combat rules, and even Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Descent into Avernus-type rules would have been better than almost nothing. It doesn't have very much information about the Wildspace bubbles you can encounter beyond the few in the adventure module, or even any real tips on how you can homebrew your own beyond it has to have a sun and a number of planets with moons orbiting them (as far as I've seen). It doesn't have methods of upgrading your ship like Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Descent into Avernus have for their vehicles. It only has three magic items, when there could have been more, given the setting. Also a complaint I've seen from time to time is how the ship repair rules seem....odd.
It's not only the volume of content but also the type of content that people are up in arms about.
Beyond that the content they had was (outside of the monster manual) frankly inadequate; the module very much felt like a rough draft and the players guide had a staggering lack of information for how to operate and maintain a spelljammer.
Hell, I'm still puzzled as to why wild space is even a thing since the astral sea should have rolled in to fill the emptieness thus invalidating the prime material plane in it's entirety.
Unfortunately; I'd say content being woefully inadequate to actually run a game with is far from a new thing as far as modern WotC's output goes. Just the other day I was reading through Strixhaven and the Wild Beyond the Witchlight, and I was struck by just how little description there was for... well; basically anything. I remember 3rd edition wheree individual rooms would have descriptions. The overview map for Strixhaven barely has a paragraph on any individual location. It's frankly pathetic. And the rules for Mage's Tower should have been a warning to us all for what was to come with the Spelljammer combat rules...
The issue that is being put forward isn't that the books didn't have more content. The issue is being put forward is what content it's missing.
It doesn't have comprehensive ship combat rules, and even Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Descent into Avernus-type rules would have been better than almost nothing. It doesn't have very much information about the Wildspace bubbles you can encounter beyond the few in the adventure module, or even any real tips on how you can homebrew your own beyond it has to have a sun and a number of planets with moons orbiting them (as far as I've seen). It doesn't have methods of upgrading your ship like Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Descent into Avernus have for their vehicles. It only has three magic items, when there could have been more, given the setting. Also a complaint I've seen from time to time is how the ship repair rules seem....odd.
It's not only the volume of content but also the type of content that people are up in arms about.
I get why you guys are upset. What I don’t get is my satisfaction make you more upset and the need you guys seem to have to convince me that I shouldn’t be satisfied. 😁
I get why you guys are upset. What I don’t get is my satisfaction make you more upset and the need you guys seem to have to convince me that I shouldn’t be satisfied. 😁
What I don’t get is my satisfaction make you more upset and the need you guys seem to have to convince me that I shouldn’t be satisfied.
Ehm, no-one in this thread is doing that?! Or are people not allowed to list their issues with the product (which there are many)? No-one really cares whether YOU are satisfied with the product. If you are then good for you. Many others are not and trying to persuade them that the product is actually good and it's their problem is exactly the same thing you are blaming others of.
What I don’t get is my satisfaction make you more upset and the need you guys seem to have to convince me that I shouldn’t be satisfied.
Ehm, no-one in this thread is doing that?! Or are people not allowed to list their issues with the product (which there are many)? No-one really cares whether YOU are satisfied with the product. If you are then good for you. Many others are not and trying to persuade them that the product is actually good and it's their problem is exactly the same thing you are blaming others of.
Nah, nah, nah. That's not what's been happening here, let me demonstrate.
Here's one side of the engagement: "I understand why people can be disappointed but I was just giving my impression of the product." "That’s a great deal I think. I know others will disagree but that’s ok. :)" "Yep. It’s all personal preference here." "That said I am happy with what we got and for the price I paid for it." "But even if 83% of people were unsaticfied with the product that doesn't mean that the content is objectively bad or I shouldn't be satisfied with my purchase."
Edit - I thought it was multiple people on the other side, but upon review I think it's just BoringBard, who evidently thinks an argument is happening and wants to be a part of it: "If it's personal preference, then by definition the fact that you liked the content is personal preference too." "Um... You're not actually addressing any of my points here." "Feel free to think the content is worth the price tag here, but to 83.3% of people, it's not."
Maybe it's time we all take a step back and think about how we're treating each other here. Save the righteous indignation for local politics. Yeah?
The issue that is being put forward isn't that the books didn't have more content. The issue is being put forward is what content it's missing.
It doesn't have comprehensive ship combat rules, and even Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Descent into Avernus-type rules would have been better than almost nothing. It doesn't have very much information about the Wildspace bubbles you can encounter beyond the few in the adventure module, or even any real tips on how you can homebrew your own beyond it has to have a sun and a number of planets with moons orbiting them (as far as I've seen). It doesn't have methods of upgrading your ship like Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Descent into Avernus have for their vehicles. It only has three magic items, when there could have been more, given the setting. Also a complaint I've seen from time to time is how the ship repair rules seem....odd.
It's not only the volume of content but also the type of content that people are up in arms about.
I get why you guys are upset. What I don’t get is my satisfaction make you more upset and the need you guys seem to have to convince me that I shouldn’t be satisfied. 😁
I think part of it is that you are apparently so completely enthralled by what is clearly an incomplete product.
First of all, "That's not what's been happening here, and you know it." This is extremely rude. Can you stop calling me a liar (and the fact the you "coat it in a pretty words" doesn't change the underlying meaning).
Secondly, no the point isn't clear. Your quotes doesn't clear anything. They only show that Fjw70 is satisfied with the product, good for them. This however is no reason to stop people who are not satisfied to voice their opinion or to disallow them to explain why the arguments that Fjw70 provided do not change their opinion on the product.
First of all, "That's not what's been happening here, and you know it." This is extremely rude. Can you stop calling me a liar (and the fact the you "coat it in a pretty words" doesn't change the underlying meaning).
You're right, I assumed the worst. The alternative is that you haven't read the thread in which you're posting. Which, I suppose, would be a lesser offense. Okay, I take it back -- you DON'T know it, but it's plain to see. Though I can see why you wouldn't want to dig through 7 pages of comments before joining the conversation. It's honestly a bit of a slog. Perhaps my post (now edited!) can illuminate it for you.
Honestly it would be nice if we could not ascribe malice to each others motivations for posting here.
Aside from me I suppose; I've purchased some 17 books for 5e and out of all of them this is the only one that was able to so thoroughly disappoint me that I felt the urge to begin posting here in the forums to warn people to not spend money on this. Like I was legitimately that salty over purchasing this.
The issue that is being put forward isn't that the books didn't have more content. The issue is being put forward is what content it's missing.
It doesn't have comprehensive ship combat rules, and even Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Descent into Avernus-type rules would have been better than almost nothing. It doesn't have very much information about the Wildspace bubbles you can encounter beyond the few in the adventure module, or even any real tips on how you can homebrew your own beyond it has to have a sun and a number of planets with moons orbiting them (as far as I've seen). It doesn't have methods of upgrading your ship like Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Descent into Avernus have for their vehicles. It only has three magic items, when there could have been more, given the setting. Also a complaint I've seen from time to time is how the ship repair rules seem....odd.
It's not only the volume of content but also the type of content that people are up in arms about.
I get why you guys are upset. What I don’t get is my satisfaction make you more upset and the need you guys seem to have to convince me that I shouldn’t be satisfied. 😁
My speculation as to why this is? You say you get it, but the tone of your posts doesn't really seem to convey that, and that can have an impact on how folks respond when they're being salty about something.
Also I'm not upset about Spelljammer and how it turned out, because I never really cared too much about the spelljammer aspect. But I do empathize with those who are, which is why I'm able to talk the same way.
Looking through these books again I don’t really see any room for the “missing” stuff. I assume the design team had a specific page count that they had to stick to. If that is true then what would you take out in the current books to make room for the other stuff? I guess the adventure could have been replaced with a DM book with the “missing” stuff but I personally wouldn’t want to give up the adventure. I think that makes this more newbie friendly since you can hop in and start playing SJ immediately. But that’s just my opinion.
Looking through these books again I don’t really see any room for the “missing” stuff. I assume the design team had a specific page count that they had to stick to. If that is true then what would you take out in the current books to make room for the other stuff? I guess the adventure could have been replaced with a DM book with the “missing” stuff but I personally wouldn’t want to give up the adventure. I think that makes this more newbie friendly since you can hop in and start playing SJ immediately. But that’s just my opinion.
If it was me, I'd remove the adventure module from the base product then use that to fill in phenomenon, establish the spheres and the phlogistron (and just ditch the astral sea in it's entirety because it's inclusion just adds a mess of confusion), rules for spelljammer operation and maintenance, suggestions for stellar phenomenon and/or hazards... Just all the stuff players and GM's would want to have for a proper D&D campaign setting that is predicated on Boats in space. All of this would of course be priced at a far more reasonable ammount; let's say $65 canadian to reflect the more focused material and amalgamation of Boo's and astral adventurers guide.
As for Light of Xaryxis I'd properly scale it up to be a full adventure, wherein players have actual agency and the module is scaled in a way that does not require the GM to have so many god damn contingencies.
As a result of this players and GM's get a more complete general setting guide with monsters and GM's can run a proper adventure that exemplifies the setting. Best of all for WotC they can charge players for 2 products that all together cost about $130 and people will be singing their praises.
Instead we got a product that I legitimately feel I got cheated on because of just how low the standards were dropped for this.
Edit: And it's because of this slipshod, overpriced product that I not only actively advise anyone with finite amounts of money and good taste to avoid this product like the plague, but I am now in a position where I have to seriously consider WotC's commitment to delivering a quality product to me as a consumer going forward; I was one of those people who bought pretty much everything for player materials without a second thought ASAP with only a few exceptions, both because of how much I appreciate 5th and also because I felt that I was getting something worthwhile even when it wasn't the most polished product.
Like It boggles me that more care and effort went into producing Mythic Theros, an adaptation of a blinking MTG expansion then anyone felt obligated to do for adapting a delightful 2nd edition setting.
My only bit of advice is if you have bought the book and are unsatisfied leave feedback I hope of enough people do we might avoid this happening in the future. If this the quality of future products I'll be going elsewhere.
-No combat roles/exploration roles for Crew members/party members outside the # of crew required to work the ship's weapons.
-No Space Hasards/environement rules/tables
-Very vague rules about how you pilot a Spelljammer.
-Non-existing rules about space combat
-Non-existing rules about exploration
-No rules about Downtimes activities in a Spelljammer setting/world.
-No ships upgrades/weapons upgrades
-No rules/tables to create or generate a Solar systeme/Sphere, just 2 examples and a big" PHAT F you dumb arse, that all you get for 60$"
-Lazy as all heck, they've just ripped out the OG maps for the ships from AD&D, the whole think feels like they've just tried to convert 2E Spelljammer but abbandoned half way.
-Super linear and barely interesting adventure.(and ONCE again its a lvl1 to 8-9 ONLY type of adventure)
-1 new magic items and 2 new spells..., for a setting that had like 100's of spelljammer specific items in the past...
There is more things missing than actually included in these "books"...
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
Hell, if we're comparing content I think the most valid one is SCAG, 5e's first supplement and that sucker was released 7 years ago as a sort of campaign guide for the Sword coast region (where they seemed determined to set everything) and to a lesser extent the wider realms.
It didn't come with a monster manual or a module but it had a whack of colorful sub-classes and a "man on the ground" description of the regions most prominent cities and organizations while also covering a staggering number of gods.
Frankly, SCAG (which cost $50.95 canadian) gave me more to work with for building campaigns then spell jammer did for far, far less.
Beyond that the content they had was (outside of the monster manual) frankly inadequate; the module very much felt like a rough draft and the players guide had a staggering lack of information for how to operate and maintain a spelljammer.
Hell, I'm still puzzled as to why wild space is even a thing since the astral sea should have rolled in to fill the emptieness thus invalidating the prime material plane in it's entirety.
Unfortunately; I'd say content being woefully inadequate to actually run a game with is far from a new thing as far as modern WotC's output goes. Just the other day I was reading through Strixhaven and the Wild Beyond the Witchlight, and I was struck by just how little description there was for... well; basically anything. I remember 3rd edition wheree individual rooms would have descriptions. The overview map for Strixhaven barely has a paragraph on any individual location. It's frankly pathetic. And the rules for Mage's Tower should have been a warning to us all for what was to come with the Spelljammer combat rules...
I get why you guys are upset. What I don’t get is my satisfaction make you more upset and the need you guys seem to have to convince me that I shouldn’t be satisfied. 😁
Good for you. I guess?
Yeah, this is strange to watch.
Ehm, no-one in this thread is doing that?! Or are people not allowed to list their issues with the product (which there are many)? No-one really cares whether YOU are satisfied with the product. If you are then good for you. Many others are not and trying to persuade them that the product is actually good and it's their problem is exactly the same thing you are blaming others of.
Nah, nah, nah. That's not what's been happening here, let me demonstrate.
Here's one side of the engagement: "I understand why people can be disappointed but I was just giving my impression of the product." "That’s a great deal I think. I know others will disagree but that’s ok. :)" "Yep. It’s all personal preference here." "That said I am happy with what we got and for the price I paid for it." "But even if 83% of people were unsaticfied with the product that doesn't mean that the content is objectively bad or I shouldn't be satisfied with my purchase."
Edit - I thought it was multiple people on the other side, but upon review I think it's just BoringBard, who evidently thinks an argument is happening and wants to be a part of it: "If it's personal preference, then by definition the fact that you liked the content is personal preference too." "Um... You're not actually addressing any of my points here." "Feel free to think the content is worth the price tag here, but to 83.3% of people, it's not."
Maybe it's time we all take a step back and think about how we're treating each other here. Save the righteous indignation for local politics. Yeah?
I think part of it is that you are apparently so completely enthralled by what is clearly an incomplete product.
First of all, "That's not what's been happening here, and you know it." This is extremely rude. Can you stop calling me a liar (and the fact the you "coat it in a pretty words" doesn't change the underlying meaning).
Secondly, no the point isn't clear. Your quotes doesn't clear anything. They only show that Fjw70 is satisfied with the product, good for them. This however is no reason to stop people who are not satisfied to voice their opinion or to disallow them to explain why the arguments that Fjw70 provided do not change their opinion on the product.
You're right, I assumed the worst. The alternative is that you haven't read the thread in which you're posting. Which, I suppose, would be a lesser offense. Okay, I take it back -- you DON'T know it, but it's plain to see. Though I can see why you wouldn't want to dig through 7 pages of comments before joining the conversation. It's honestly a bit of a slog. Perhaps my post (now edited!) can illuminate it for you.
Honestly it would be nice if we could not ascribe malice to each others motivations for posting here.
Aside from me I suppose; I've purchased some 17 books for 5e and out of all of them this is the only one that was able to so thoroughly disappoint me that I felt the urge to begin posting here in the forums to warn people to not spend money on this. Like I was legitimately that salty over purchasing this.
My speculation as to why this is? You say you get it, but the tone of your posts doesn't really seem to convey that, and that can have an impact on how folks respond when they're being salty about something.
Also I'm not upset about Spelljammer and how it turned out, because I never really cared too much about the spelljammer aspect. But I do empathize with those who are, which is why I'm able to talk the same way.
Looking through these books again I don’t really see any room for the “missing” stuff. I assume the design team had a specific page count that they had to stick to. If that is true then what would you take out in the current books to make room for the other stuff? I guess the adventure could have been replaced with a DM book with the “missing” stuff but I personally wouldn’t want to give up the adventure. I think that makes this more newbie friendly since you can hop in and start playing SJ immediately. But that’s just my opinion.
If it was me, I'd remove the adventure module from the base product then use that to fill in phenomenon, establish the spheres and the phlogistron (and just ditch the astral sea in it's entirety because it's inclusion just adds a mess of confusion), rules for spelljammer operation and maintenance, suggestions for stellar phenomenon and/or hazards... Just all the stuff players and GM's would want to have for a proper D&D campaign setting that is predicated on Boats in space. All of this would of course be priced at a far more reasonable ammount; let's say $65 canadian to reflect the more focused material and amalgamation of Boo's and astral adventurers guide.
As for Light of Xaryxis I'd properly scale it up to be a full adventure, wherein players have actual agency and the module is scaled in a way that does not require the GM to have so many god damn contingencies.
As a result of this players and GM's get a more complete general setting guide with monsters and GM's can run a proper adventure that exemplifies the setting. Best of all for WotC they can charge players for 2 products that all together cost about $130 and people will be singing their praises.
Instead we got a product that I legitimately feel I got cheated on because of just how low the standards were dropped for this.
Edit: And it's because of this slipshod, overpriced product that I not only actively advise anyone with finite amounts of money and good taste to avoid this product like the plague, but I am now in a position where I have to seriously consider WotC's commitment to delivering a quality product to me as a consumer going forward; I was one of those people who bought pretty much everything for player materials without a second thought ASAP with only a few exceptions, both because of how much I appreciate 5th and also because I felt that I was getting something worthwhile even when it wasn't the most polished product.
Like It boggles me that more care and effort went into producing Mythic Theros, an adaptation of a blinking MTG expansion then anyone felt obligated to do for adapting a delightful 2nd edition setting.
I'm still on the fence about buying it
My advice is to see if you can get a cheap used copy off of either e-bay or amazon for the monster manual and to a lesser extent the players guide.
My only bit of advice is if you have bought the book and are unsatisfied leave feedback I hope of enough people do we might avoid this happening in the future. If this the quality of future products I'll be going elsewhere.
https://support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
If you haven't bought the book and do you have best of luck to you.
Wizards of the Coast Feedback/Support
https://support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
Submitted for whatever it's worth.