I never said it wasn't necessary. I was making the point of, why make such a big deal out of this when other things (being the content we are paying for [or lack there of]) are just brushed over and not talked about by Wizards? I think you are misinterpreting what this is about lol
Maybe you just are not being clear in your choice of words. Here you seem to acknowledge that it is necessary, but in the next sentence ask why WotC is making such a big deal of it. You also ask why they aren’t talking about content quality when previously you held your hands up to say that you are not trying to pit inclusivity against content. Can you make up your mind please?
I understand the need to change the word. But not their reasons for it.
From the beginning the word "Race" is wrong and "Species is correct.
Race would actually be a variation inside a Species. So hill and mountain are races of the dwarf species. So changing to "species" is actually grammatically correct.
But the word race does not hold any racist connotations. Otherwise you also cannot say racist anymore. Cause it has the word race in it. It is like the world black. The word isn't racist, it is how the person uses it. Heaven forbid I talk about a black sports car or a black shirt.
This telling people they can and cannot say things is just stupid. What happened to "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." When is it too far? how about lets just point out, round them all up, and quarter all these racist bastards. Then we can go back to using words.
When I 1st heard that Drow were not inherently evil anymore, because they didn't want racism (the wording they used was different but you get the idea) in D&D anymore...I just shook my head. (actually Drow is a race, because they are part of the Elf species) What's next? Dwarves and Elves suddenly get along?
In One D&D they've given "speices" dark vision that didn't have it before...except humans. Well isn't that racist? I want night vision. Guess I could always be a Cleric and take the twilight domain. :)
ONLY RACIST PEOPLE use words in a racist context. how about we get rid of those people instead of the word?
I take into consideration posts on forums from nearly every platform, going from Twitter, Reddit, Facebook groups, here on DNDBeyond, Instagram, Youtube, Twitch, and a couple others. I'm not just talking about me and my friends. I'm talking about posts I've seen, quite literally, countless times on the Spelljammers conversation. It's simple to see when you are always on the internet.
I know. Each person’s experience of the internet is HEAVILY filtered. It is way too easy to fool yourself into thinking what you see is all of reality, especially on the internet. I frequent those sites as well and my experience is drastically different from what you are stating as objectively true. I should have figured from the way the thread title was phrased that you haven’t seen the people who have been talking about this as a problem for a decade or more at every one of those sites you listed.
Why make a public post about something so minuscule, making it a near center piece on the website and drawing everyones attention to it, but not about the massive complaints about the content of some of their recent books to come out?
To answer this question - Race is a fundamental part of the game; it is so engrained in the game’s identity that it is going to take a long, long time to get folks to start using the newer term. It is going to result in changes to how D&D Beyond sorts information. With One D&D being backwards comparable with 5e, references in 5e books to “race” are going to be a bit out of place (or they’ll receive a massive errata). Playtest material for the new edition likely will not use “race”, so folks reviewing the playtests will need to know the new terms lest they be confused over what the materials are referring to.
Given how big changing this particular term of art is to so many elements of the game, and given the numerous places where there could be confusion, it makes sense to announce this early and during the playtest phase where it is likely to start popping up.
Also, note that their announcement indicates they have been stealthily making these updates without “a public post” - it is only now that we are approaching a fundamental change and receiving playtest content using the new terms that they felt the need to give players a heads up.
Really nothing more to read into this than “this is a wide-reaching change you’ll start seeing in the next couple of days, just a heads up.”
So, I'm seeing comments about how race is an incorrect term, or at the very least using an archaic definition that confuses people. For anyone making such a comment, I would like to point out the term "The Human Race", which is something that people say in modern times. Not only that, but when people hear "The Human Race", they generally are not confused by that use of the word "race", and understand what it means in that usage. It's just one of those words that has more than one definition that are actively being used at the same time.
Species, however, is not exactly accurate. Sure, most of the races represent a species, but then we have ones like tieflings, which are not a species.
Some people have a problem with the term race, and that is perfectly legitimate. It's not fair to put a term that hurts people in the game. Changing "Race" to Species or something else that doesn't offend people won't hurt you, all it will do is help other people.
So, I'm seeing comments about how race is an incorrect term, or at the very least using an archaic definition that confuses people. For anyone making such a comment, I would like to point out the term "The Human Race", which is something that people say in modern times. Not only that, but when people hear "The Human Race", they generally are not confused by that use of the word "race", and understand what it means in that usage. It's just one of those words that has more than one definition that are actively being used at the same time.
Species, however, is not exactly accurate. Sure, most of the races represent a species, but then we have ones like tieflings, which are not a species.
What is the difference between Race and Species?
• Race is a system of classification of human beings only, whereas species is the most refined division of all life forms.
• Race has no biological basis whereas organisms that can mate and produce offspring are classified under the same species category.
• If two life forms are genetically so different that they cannot interbreed, they are said to belong to two different species.
so I guess species is actually incorrect as well, since they are bringing in half-breeds' for every "race"..."species" I don't even know what to say anymore.
For anyone making such a comment, I would like to point out the term "The Human Race", which is something that people say in modern times. Not only that, but when people hear "The Human Race", they generally are not confused by that use of the word "race", and understand what it means in that usage.
The etymological issue with your post, however, is that you are citing an archaic phrase - “the human race” dates back at least to the 1590s, when an archaic definition was still utilised. It is less that the phrase itself is unambiguous, and more it is a centuries-old holdout (outside of a fantasy revival in the mid-20th century) from a definition no one uses. By this point, “the human race” has become a singular idiomatic phrase, surviving long past the definitional use of one of its subcomponents.
For anyone making such a comment, I would like to point out the term "The Human Race", which is something that people say in modern times. Not only that, but when people hear "The Human Race", they generally are not confused by that use of the word "race", and understand what it means in that usage.
The etymological issue with your post, however, is that you are citing an archaic phrase - “the human race” dates back at least to the 1590s, when an archaic definition was still utilised. It is less that the phrase itself is unambiguous, and more it is a centuries-old holdout (outside of a fantasy revival in the mid-20th century) from a definition no one uses. By this point, “the human race” has become a singular idiomatic phrase, surviving long past the definitional use of one of its subcomponents.
That's the historical usage. When used in modern times it's using a slightly different active definition that people do use, and it's active enough that Webster doesn't even consider it an archaic definition: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race# (definition 2A)
The title of your post, Actual Question: Does Anyone ACTUALLY Have A Problem With The Term "Race"?, sounds like a rhetorical question where you find it ridiculous and unbelievable that there actually exists people who have a problem with this. This is quite insensitive because you are insinuating that no one in existence actually felt a prejudiced links between real world people and the fantasy peoples in D&D. And that WotC is addressing this issue for reasons other than trying to be more inclusive. You later said that "I'm perfectly fine with inclusion and the decision to make the company look better to the public, but..." If you think WotC is doing this for political theatrics, why not just come out and say it?
You then try to backpaddle and reframed your viewpoint as: "WotC should spend more time addressing the concerns of the majority instead of spending resources trying to make the game more inclusive for the minority." This is also a somewhat callous viewpoint; just because an issue doesn't affect you, or the majority, doesn't mean that the issue should be a low priority.
You then, once again, try to backpaddle and reframe your viewpoint as: "WotC should not address minuscule issues such as race in d&d as a center piece of the website and draw everyone's attention to it; high visibility parts of the website should be reserved for what the majority cares about such as the content of recent books." This is also a somewhat callous. Should issues that only affect the minority be hidden in not-so-visible parts of the website?
It seems that I may not have been clear with some of my point, which is my bad. To further explain what I'm saying, my point is: Why make a public post about something so minuscule, making it a near center piece on the website and drawing everyones attention to it, but not about the massive complaints about the content of some of their recent books to come out?
Actual Question: Does Anyone ACTUALLY Have A Problem With The Term "Race"?
Yes, real people with real lived experience with real discrimination around race had real problems with the term.
They spoke up
Wizards of the Coast listened
Changes are being made
The validity and value of the experiences of these members of our community is not something to be disregarded.
This thread will be locked as someone being in the minority does not justify margination or harm towards them and the moderation team will not entertain the idea that it does.
That's fair! As much of a "scientific" word as it is, it does still fit pretty well. Kinda feels weird to say, but will probably be easy overtime!
Maybe you just are not being clear in your choice of words. Here you seem to acknowledge that it is necessary, but in the next sentence ask why WotC is making such a big deal of it. You also ask why they aren’t talking about content quality when previously you held your hands up to say that you are not trying to pit inclusivity against content. Can you make up your mind please?
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I posted my point again at the top
I understand the need to change the word. But not their reasons for it.
From the beginning the word "Race" is wrong and "Species is correct.
Race would actually be a variation inside a Species. So hill and mountain are races of the dwarf species.
So changing to "species" is actually grammatically correct.
But the word race does not hold any racist connotations. Otherwise you also cannot say racist anymore. Cause it has the word race in it.
It is like the world black. The word isn't racist, it is how the person uses it. Heaven forbid I talk about a black sports car or a black shirt.
This telling people they can and cannot say things is just stupid. What happened to "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."
When is it too far? how about lets just point out, round them all up, and quarter all these racist bastards. Then we can go back to using words.
When I 1st heard that Drow were not inherently evil anymore, because they didn't want racism (the wording they used was different but you get the idea) in D&D anymore...I just shook my head. (actually Drow is a race, because they are part of the Elf species) What's next? Dwarves and Elves suddenly get along?
In One D&D they've given "speices" dark vision that didn't have it before...except humans. Well isn't that racist? I want night vision. Guess I could always be a Cleric and take the twilight domain. :)
ONLY RACIST PEOPLE use words in a racist context. how about we get rid of those people instead of the word?
I know. Each person’s experience of the internet is HEAVILY filtered. It is way too easy to fool yourself into thinking what you see is all of reality, especially on the internet. I frequent those sites as well and my experience is drastically different from what you are stating as objectively true. I should have figured from the way the thread title was phrased that you haven’t seen the people who have been talking about this as a problem for a decade or more at every one of those sites you listed.
To answer this question - Race is a fundamental part of the game; it is so engrained in the game’s identity that it is going to take a long, long time to get folks to start using the newer term. It is going to result in changes to how D&D Beyond sorts information. With One D&D being backwards comparable with 5e, references in 5e books to “race” are going to be a bit out of place (or they’ll receive a massive errata). Playtest material for the new edition likely will not use “race”, so folks reviewing the playtests will need to know the new terms lest they be confused over what the materials are referring to.
Given how big changing this particular term of art is to so many elements of the game, and given the numerous places where there could be confusion, it makes sense to announce this early and during the playtest phase where it is likely to start popping up.
Also, note that their announcement indicates they have been stealthily making these updates without “a public post” - it is only now that we are approaching a fundamental change and receiving playtest content using the new terms that they felt the need to give players a heads up.
Really nothing more to read into this than “this is a wide-reaching change you’ll start seeing in the next couple of days, just a heads up.”
So, I'm seeing comments about how race is an incorrect term, or at the very least using an archaic definition that confuses people. For anyone making such a comment, I would like to point out the term "The Human Race", which is something that people say in modern times. Not only that, but when people hear "The Human Race", they generally are not confused by that use of the word "race", and understand what it means in that usage. It's just one of those words that has more than one definition that are actively being used at the same time.
Species, however, is not exactly accurate. Sure, most of the races represent a species, but then we have ones like tieflings, which are not a species.
Some people have a problem with the term race, and that is perfectly legitimate. It's not fair to put a term that hurts people in the game. Changing "Race" to Species or something else that doesn't offend people won't hurt you, all it will do is help other people.
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HERE.What is the difference between Race and Species?
• Race is a system of classification of human beings only, whereas species is the most refined division of all life forms.
• Race has no biological basis whereas organisms that can mate and produce offspring are classified under the same species category.
• If two life forms are genetically so different that they cannot interbreed, they are said to belong to two different species.
so I guess species is actually incorrect as well, since they are bringing in half-breeds' for every "race"..."species" I don't even know what to say anymore.
I take no credit
https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-race-and-vs-species/#:~:text=What%20is%20the%20difference%20between%20Race%20and%20Species%3F&text=%E2%80%A2-,Race%20is%20a%20system%20of%20classification%20of%20human%20beings%20only,division%20of%20all%20life%20forms.&text=%E2%80%A2-,Race%20has%20no%20biological%20basis%20whereas%20organisms%20that%20can%20mate,under%20the%20same%20species%20category.
The etymological issue with your post, however, is that you are citing an archaic phrase - “the human race” dates back at least to the 1590s, when an archaic definition was still utilised. It is less that the phrase itself is unambiguous, and more it is a centuries-old holdout (outside of a fantasy revival in the mid-20th century) from a definition no one uses. By this point, “the human race” has become a singular idiomatic phrase, surviving long past the definitional use of one of its subcomponents.
My guy, people have been upset with the word "race" for FAR longer than the contents of Wizards books. Idk what you're getting at
That's the historical usage. When used in modern times it's using a slightly different active definition that people do use, and it's active enough that Webster doesn't even consider it an archaic definition: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race# (definition 2A)
The title of your post, Actual Question: Does Anyone ACTUALLY Have A Problem With The Term "Race"?, sounds like a rhetorical question where you find it ridiculous and unbelievable that there actually exists people who have a problem with this. This is quite insensitive because you are insinuating that no one in existence actually felt a prejudiced links between real world people and the fantasy peoples in D&D. And that WotC is addressing this issue for reasons other than trying to be more inclusive. You later said that "I'm perfectly fine with inclusion and the decision to make the company look better to the public, but..." If you think WotC is doing this for political theatrics, why not just come out and say it?
You then try to backpaddle and reframed your viewpoint as: "WotC should spend more time addressing the concerns of the majority instead of spending resources trying to make the game more inclusive for the minority." This is also a somewhat callous viewpoint; just because an issue doesn't affect you, or the majority, doesn't mean that the issue should be a low priority.
You then, once again, try to backpaddle and reframe your viewpoint as: "WotC should not address minuscule issues such as race in d&d as a center piece of the website and draw everyone's attention to it; high visibility parts of the website should be reserved for what the majority cares about such as the content of recent books." This is also a somewhat callous. Should issues that only affect the minority be hidden in not-so-visible parts of the website?
Yes, real people with real lived experience with real discrimination around race had real problems with the term.
They spoke up
Wizards of the Coast listened
Changes are being made
The validity and value of the experiences of these members of our community is not something to be disregarded.
This thread will be locked as someone being in the minority does not justify margination or harm towards them and the moderation team will not entertain the idea that it does.
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