I don't understand, why does it even need to change!?
There's 26 pages as to why but to put it simply folk are being hurt by it
Hurt by what? Sorry, still doesn't make sense. I'll try to search around to find out what the go is but sounds like some kind of non-issue at face value.
The quick version: Wizards has a complicated history of race in their game, stemming back to the game’s creation and some of the fairly blatant racism contained in early editions (Gary Gygax was a self-admitted “biological determinist”, which is the modern way of saying “eugenicist”).
That history, which carried through even to some issues in 5e, made “race” a fairly problematic tool as used in D&D - the term, as used within the game, bears the stigma of the game’s history and the fact that “race” has been used in-game divide and justify the inclusion of harmful real-world stereotypes.
That is how it hurts people - it is a term used by D&D to promulgate real world racism, and that is baggage which brings an unpleasant reminder of a time when D&D was more actively exclusionary.
I don't understand, why does it even need to change!?
There's 26 pages as to why but to put it simply folk are being hurt by it
Hurt by what? Sorry, still doesn't make sense. I'll try to search around to find out what the go is but sounds like some kind of non-issue at face value.
Dungeons & Dragons has a history of evolving to meet the needs of our players and foster an inviting space for everyone.
With that in mind, we understand "race" is a problematic term that has had prejudiced links between real world people and the fantasy peoples of D&D worlds. The usage of the term across D&D and other popular IP has evolved over time. Now it’s time for the next evolution.
Also, please take this seriously, even if you are not affected by it, there are other people that are affected by it, including me. Also the official stance of the mods is don't invalidate this or say it is a nonissue, because it officially is.
This is a reminder to everyone who makes the choice to participate in these discussions surrounding the One D&D changes to game language. You do so under the explicit assumption you will participate by the site rules.
I want to emphasize something; these changes are being made because people who play the game are experiencing harm at the language the game uses and have communicated this to Wizards of the Coast, who are taking action to continue to progress the game forwards to be as inclusive as it can be. The moderation team will not entertain the dismissal, invalidation, or margination of members of the community who have raised these valid concerns just because "I don't see a problem with the word". Privilege is a wonderful thing.
If you want to participate in this discussion without receiving warnings, infraction points, or bans, you will do so civilly, respectfully, and with kindness.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I don't understand, why does it even need to change!?
Read the thread you have commented on. Several others have asked the same question. I would rather not keep repeating myself but at this point it's ridiculous.
I don't understand, why does it even need to change!?
Read the thread you have commented on. Several others have asked the same question. I would rather not keep repeating myself but at this point it's ridiculous.
I did, can't see any valid reason why anyone would be offended. Just leave it as "race". End of.
You clearly haven't read through if you genuinely still don't see how it's offensive. Caerwyn and many others have explained extensively how the term is harmful. Also, the thread isn't even about whether or not to continue using "race"; it's about what to use instead. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.
I don't understand, why does it even need to change!?
Read the thread you have commented on. Several others have asked the same question. I would rather not keep repeating myself but at this point it's ridiculous.
I did, can't see any valid reason why anyone would be offended. Just leave it as "race". End of.
cool, its been explained, multiple times, its changing and nothing you say will change that
no point in saying it should remain when its not going to, no matter what, especailly when there are valid reasons
I don't understand, why does it even need to change!?
Read the thread you have commented on. Several others have asked the same question. I would rather not keep repeating myself but at this point it's ridiculous.
I did, can't see any valid reason why anyone would be offended. Just leave it as "race". End of.
That you cannot see a valid reason why anyone would be offended is not the standard to be applied - it is whether a valid reason exists, as determined by Wizards, the entity exercising its right to make a determination as to their own content.
As was already explained to you and ignored in favour of your unempathetic dismissal, they have tacitly acknowledged that they have a valid reason - they do not want to use a term that their game has used historically for unsavoury depictions of race. That alone - “hey, we don’t want to use a term that we have used in a racist manner before, and want to start fresh with a term that does not have any of our self/predecessor-inflicted racist baggage” is a pretty strong valid reason someone might want to change their own diction.
I don't have a particular dog in this fight anymore, but I've just gotten used to saying stuff like "racial bonuses" or "racials" when talking about stat bumps or specific features. My observation here is whatever replaces the word / phrase should be just as short / succinct / punchy. Lineage kind of works. People I'm not sure about. Species is for an SF / science fantasy RPG.
The term "species" is not actually a far stretch for a medieval fantasy setting, but I agree that it's not ideal. The modern understanding of "species" has a particular scientific connotation.
Ability score improvements aren't tied to lineage anymore but other traits are (and understandably so). Perhaps "ancestral/innate traits" could work alongside lineage/folk/type/people?
I am. I'm just also annoyed that we have to field more "WHY ARE PEOPLE OFFENDED THAT'S DUMB" nonsense in this thread while the game is burning down. Nothing stops this crap. Bleh.
I am. I'm just also annoyed that we have to field more "WHY ARE PEOPLE OFFENDED THAT'S DUMB" nonsense in this thread while the game is burning down. Nothing stops this crap. Bleh.
I hope that one day it will but sadly i just think thats human nature there will always be ignorant folk
I don't understand, why does it even need to change!?
Read the thread you have commented on. Several others have asked the same question. I would rather not keep repeating myself but at this point it's ridiculous.
I did, can't see any valid reason why anyone would be offended. Just leave it as "race". End of.
So like, you're just gonna do what the mods have said not to do, then?
This is a reminder to everyone who makes the choice to participate in these discussions surrounding the One D&D changes to game language. You do so under the explicit assumption you will participate by the site rules.
I want to emphasize something; these changes are being made because people who play the game are experiencing harm at the language the game uses and have communicated this to Wizards of the Coast, who are taking action to continue to progress the game forwards to be as inclusive as it can be. The moderation team will not entertain the dismissal, invalidation, or margination of members of the community who have raised these valid concerns just because "I don't see a problem with the word". Privilege is a wonderful thing.
If you want to participate in this discussion without receiving warnings, infraction points, or bans, you will do so civilly, respectfully, and with kindness.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Four letter words that drive people crazy, Trabeck for $500!
Obvious this forum will run till the ending of the world. The Mods have made the decision. If we disagree or add a rebuttal it is automatically in violation of the community standards. So it would be the sane thing to just lock this thread. WOTC and everyone on the top has made the decision, for good or ill.
Four letter words that drive people crazy Trabeck!
Obvious this forum will run till the ending of the world. The Mods have made the decision. If we disagree or add a rebuttal it is automatically in violation of the community standards. So it would be the sane thing to just lock this thread. WOTC and everyone on the top has made the decision, for good or ill.
Ok cool but how is the change negative in any way?
If we disagree or add a rebuttal it is automatically in violation of the community standards
And yet, you are posting on the 27th page of disagreement and rebuttal
There seems to be a flaw in your theory
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Everything that has been discussed in this thread has already been said.
I second the action to lock this thread.
I do not think this thread is played out - yes, the same things keep getting said over and over again, but (a) those questions are still going to exist--might as well keep them concentrated to a single place, (b) this thread had some good discussion on terminology in the game and continues to produce that discussion, and (c) there have been a fair number of folks who now recognize the issues and why things are being changed when they might not otherwise have due to this thread.
Ok. We will keep using the term "race" at our table. No need to fix what isn't broken. To each their own.
Nobody said you couldn't keep using it.
But to deny the term is harmful is just blatant ignorance. I've already removed "race" from my dialect, and will proceed to use "lineage" at my table and in the boardgames I make. It isn't about "fixing" something, it's about not using a term that has a lot of historical baggage and a very problematic history.
Now please, I advise that you actually read threads before you repeat questions that have already been asked and answered several times before.
The quick version: Wizards has a complicated history of race in their game, stemming back to the game’s creation and some of the fairly blatant racism contained in early editions (Gary Gygax was a self-admitted “biological determinist”, which is the modern way of saying “eugenicist”).
That history, which carried through even to some issues in 5e, made “race” a fairly problematic tool as used in D&D - the term, as used within the game, bears the stigma of the game’s history and the fact that “race” has been used in-game divide and justify the inclusion of harmful real-world stereotypes.
That is how it hurts people - it is a term used by D&D to promulgate real world racism, and that is baggage which brings an unpleasant reminder of a time when D&D was more actively exclusionary.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Read the thread you have commented on. Several others have asked the same question. I would rather not keep repeating myself but at this point it's ridiculous.
[REDACTED]
You clearly haven't read through if you genuinely still don't see how it's offensive. Caerwyn and many others have explained extensively how the term is harmful. Also, the thread isn't even about whether or not to continue using "race"; it's about what to use instead. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.
[REDACTED]
cool, its been explained, multiple times, its changing and nothing you say will change that
no point in saying it should remain when its not going to, no matter what, especailly when there are valid reasons
That you cannot see a valid reason why anyone would be offended is not the standard to be applied - it is whether a valid reason exists, as determined by Wizards, the entity exercising its right to make a determination as to their own content.
As was already explained to you and ignored in favour of your unempathetic dismissal, they have tacitly acknowledged that they have a valid reason - they do not want to use a term that their game has used historically for unsavoury depictions of race. That alone - “hey, we don’t want to use a term that we have used in a racist manner before, and want to start fresh with a term that does not have any of our self/predecessor-inflicted racist baggage” is a pretty strong valid reason someone might want to change their own diction.
Sigh.
Not even the game burning down can stop this endless argument for more than a few days, eh?
Please do not contact or message me.
The term "species" is not actually a far stretch for a medieval fantasy setting, but I agree that it's not ideal. The modern understanding of "species" has a particular scientific connotation.
Ability score improvements aren't tied to lineage anymore but other traits are (and understandably so). Perhaps "ancestral/innate traits" could work alongside lineage/folk/type/people?
[REDACTED]
The game isn't "burning down", but things do look bleak. I'd suggest finding your way to the relevant threads to discuss the OGL.
[REDACTED]
I am. I'm just also annoyed that we have to field more "WHY ARE PEOPLE OFFENDED THAT'S DUMB" nonsense in this thread while the game is burning down. Nothing stops this crap. Bleh.
Please do not contact or message me.
I hope that one day it will but sadly i just think thats human nature there will always be ignorant folk
So like, you're just gonna do what the mods have said not to do, then?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
This will eventually become a jeopardy question.
Four letter words that drive people crazy, Trabeck for $500!
Obvious this forum will run till the ending of the world. The Mods have made the decision. If we disagree or add a rebuttal it is automatically in violation of the community standards. So it would be the sane thing to just lock this thread. WOTC and everyone on the top has made the decision, for good or ill.
"You are a beginner once, but a student for life." - Firearm Instruction Adage.
Ok cool but how is the change negative in any way?
[REDACTED]
And yet, you are posting on the 27th page of disagreement and rebuttal
There seems to be a flaw in your theory
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Everything that has been discussed in this thread has already been said.
I second the action to lock this thread.
Funny. "Ancestries" is exactly what I was thinking. But your reasoning as to why they wouldn't is pretty solid. Maybe "bloodline"?
I do not think this thread is played out - yes, the same things keep getting said over and over again, but (a) those questions are still going to exist--might as well keep them concentrated to a single place, (b) this thread had some good discussion on terminology in the game and continues to produce that discussion, and (c) there have been a fair number of folks who now recognize the issues and why things are being changed when they might not otherwise have due to this thread.
>>>Caerwyn_Glyndwr
Very well.
I agree.
Please continue.
Nobody said you couldn't keep using it.
But to deny the term is harmful is just blatant ignorance. I've already removed "race" from my dialect, and will proceed to use "lineage" at my table and in the boardgames I make. It isn't about "fixing" something, it's about not using a term that has a lot of historical baggage and a very problematic history.
Now please, I advise that you actually read threads before you repeat questions that have already been asked and answered several times before.
[REDACTED]