Funny. "Ancestries" is exactly what I was thinking. But your reasoning as to why they wouldn't is pretty solid. Maybe "bloodline"?
As has been said several times, people believe "ancestry" isn't ideal because Pathfinder already uses it. Yes, people think that because one game uses a term, that means another game can't, for some reason.
I think species is the best word to use. It is scientifically defendable (in so much as science exists) and it lacks the racial undertones of other terms.
I don't think other terms like Folk, Kind, Ancestory, Origin or Lineage address any of the problems with race. These create the same issues "race" had IMO.
The word species feels strangely out of place in fantasy.
I've never read a fantasy novel where any character who wasn't some high browed professor who's clinical language was supposed to be looked down on, refer to elves or dwarves or gnomes as 'species'
There are plenty of other options for a replacement word.
In the end, people are going to call it whatever they want.
For example, I've been playing D&D since like ... 1979? It's always been "OK, now pick a Race."
Even if it's officially changed to Species, or any other word, I can bet - because of over 30 years of saying "Race" - when I tell someone to pick their "species" - I am going to say "Race" out of habit.
Just because you haven't heard it before doesn't mean it's not an issue
As proven here and in many other places those hurt by those words are finally being heard, and are finally being listened too . They have valid reasons for this
The word species feels strangely out of place in fantasy.
I've never read a fantasy novel where any character who wasn't some high browed professor who's clinical language was supposed to be looked down on, refer to elves or dwarves or gnomes as 'species'
There are plenty of other options for a replacement word.
In the end, people are going to call it whatever they want.
For example, I've been playing D&D since like ... 1979? It's always been "OK, now pick a Race."
Even if it's officially changed to Species, or any other word, I can bet - because of over 30 years of saying "Race" - when I tell someone to pick their "species" - I am going to say "Race" out of habit.
Just a heads up that you may get reported for sharing this opinion.
I mean, if I do - I do. It's not that I am against changing it. It's just 30+ years of ingrained of a game calling it "Race" has just been ingrained in my head.
The moment someone at my table, probably says something I'd probably way more conscious of it, undoubtedly. But so far, none ever have - and it's not that they're insensitive - a lot of my players are there - and for example - that term I hate "SJW" - I am on the train of hating when someone uses "********." It never used to bother me before, but like BladeGod said - the world has changed. When one of my closest friends had a son born with Down Syndrome - suddenly I was very aware of how the word "********" is viewed.
"I don't understand why this is a problem, therefor it's not a problem, therefore anybody who tells me it's a problem is lying, therefore people who tell me it's a problem are villainous, and because villainy is wrong and I am opposing villains, I am righteous."
An alluring logic chain for people who've never been hurt.
I mean, if I do - I do. It's not that I am against changing it. It's just 30+ years of ingrained of a game calling it "Race" has just been ingrained in my head.
The moment someone at my table, probably says something I'd probably way more conscious of it, undoubtedly. But so far, none ever have - and it's not that they're insensitive - a lot of my players are there - and for example - that term I hate "SJW" - I am on the train of hating when someone uses "********." It never used to bother me before, but like BladeGod said - the world has changed. When one of my closest friends had a son born with Down Syndrome - suddenly I was very aware of how the word "********" is viewed.
I'm glad you have the empathy to understand that. It shows that you have compassion and humanity for your fellow beings. Now consider that there are probably many topics for which you could have more sympathy that you just don't know about yet, or don't yet understand why it can be hurtful to other people. Then maybe you'll understand that the stance shouldn't be "I don't understand it, therefore I don't think it's true and will dismiss it," but rather should be more like "I don't understand it, so I will listen and consider it carefully because it is possible that the stakes for someone else are much greater than I know."
Furthermore consider how different it is for you, an individual who only has to really be considerate to those people in your circle, as compared to a public company like Wizards of the Coast, who has to be considerate of the public at large. Which means that their impact is larger and more far reaching, so they have to listen even more carefully when people give them feedback about how their products affect people.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
The word species feels strangely out of place in fantasy.
I've never read a fantasy novel where any character who wasn't some high browed professor who's clinical language was supposed to be looked down on, refer to elves or dwarves or gnomes as 'species'
There are plenty of other options for a replacement word.
In the end, people are going to call it whatever they want.
For example, I've been playing D&D since like ... 1979? It's always been "OK, now pick a Race."
Even if it's officially changed to Species, or any other word, I can bet - because of over 30 years of saying "Race" - when I tell someone to pick their "species" - I am going to say "Race" out of habit.
And that's fine - Crawford isn't going show up at your door with a swat team because you were habituated a certain way. They're asking for feedback on what to put in their official books next year, not trying to dictate what you can and cannot call a rules element in your own home.
From my experience in this thread, we are not allowed to disagree with the change as it is unconstructive since D&D has already decided to move away from the word Race.
I'd like to point out that if anyone doesnt feel confortable with a word or a change, this can be dealth with your own playing table just like any other subject or theme usualy addressed during session 0.
You're allowed to disagree with the change. We're allowed in turn to disagree with your disagreement, but you're allowed to disagree with the change
What you're NOT allowed to do is what people continue to insist on doing and telling people like Ophidimancer "you're lying" or "you're wrong" when they say this is a real issue that has materially impacted them. You're not allowed to scoff at the idea that words can and do cause damage and denigrate people who are arguing for the change as being whichever version of "thin-skinned" you decide to accuse them of.
If you want to participate in the discussion, you are required to accept at face value that yes - people have been harmed by words, and these words on particular. If you cannot do so, then you're right - you're not allowed to voice your words on DDB's platform anymore. Because you're making yourself part of the problem.
I mean, if I do - I do. It's not that I am against changing it. It's just 30+ years of ingrained of a game calling it "Race" has just been ingrained in my head.
The moment someone at my table, probably says something I'd probably way more conscious of it, undoubtedly. But so far, none ever have - and it's not that they're insensitive - a lot of my players are there - and for example - that term I hate "SJW" - I am on the train of hating when someone uses "********." It never used to bother me before, but like BladeGod said - the world has changed. When one of my closest friends had a son born with Down Syndrome - suddenly I was very aware of how the word "********" is viewed.
I'm glad you have the empathy to understand that. It shows that you have compassion and humanity for your fellow beings. Now consider that there are probably many topics for which you could have more sympathy that you just don't know about yet, or don't yet understand why it can be hurtful to other people. Then maybe you'll understand that the stance shouldn't be "I don't understand it, therefore I don't think it's true and will dismiss it," but rather should be more like "I don't understand it, so I will listen and consider it carefully because it is possible that the stakes for someone else are much greater than I know."
Furthermore consider how different it is for you, an individual who only has to really be considerate to those people in your circle, as compared to a public company like Wizards of the Coast, who has to be considerate of the public at large. Which means that their impact is larger and more far reaching, so they have to listen even more carefully when people give them feedback about how their products affect people.
Oh, rest assured - I completely understand it. And in the end, in the grand scheme of things - changing "Race" to be "Bloodline" (or whatever they choose to do) - that does not break the game. And I'd be fine with it. And who knows, the next session (when the new term is picked) I may call it that - just out of habit of starting with the new. If they change the term to something like Bloodline or whatever - it's not going to bother me - because I do understand how it bothers others and impacts others. Changing it to Bloodline isn't like taking out the "fighter" class entirely, you know? It's not like they're changing the game - they're just changing how something is phrased.
Similar to how Rogues were originally Thieves in old school D&D. When they changed it to Rogue, I still said, "OK, so you're rolling a thief?" Not in protest to the fact it was changed to Rogue, just a million years of always calling it Thief from 1st and 2nd edition. (These days, I now call it Rogue)! So I can be taught. :)
Splain to me how changing the word race brings safety to anyone.
This society is descending into the depths of hell and everyone is so worried how 2% of the population thinks of the rest of the world. Two percent of the population without money or influence will never be able to do this. Just think about it, before falling for their rhetoric. me calling a race of beings a race in no way hurts anyone especially the orc or goblins who are being slaughtered whole sale every day. you can call them what ever you want but don't tell me it is to make real people safer. gimme a break.
Honestly, people need to start using the brains God gave them.
Here is all that really matters to the conversation, in three easy to follow steps:
1. Wizards has a really bad history with race--kind of a given when one of your founders was a eugenicist decades after that whole WWII thing made eugenics passé.
2. Wizards realizes and acknowledges that they (and/or their predecessor TSR) used the word Race in a racist way.
3. They don't want to use the same word that they have historically used in a racist way.
End of story. That is their right to say "Hey, yeah, sorry we used this badly in the past--we're going to stop using it because we want to move away from our own dark history." Like the change, hate the change; intend to use the change at your table or not, no one has any right to dictate what speech Wizards uses in their own products, nor does anyone have the right to tell Wizards that Wizards cannot decree that their own past actions were harmful and something they want to move away from.
The only thought policing; the only "cancelling" that is going on here are the people who are trying to infringe on Wizards' speech and tell them "you can't make your own choices about the language in your product because I say so."
Suffice it to say that I, personally, feel safer now that the term is being phased out because it directly reminded me of language that has been used to discriminate against me and harm me in real life. And I'm not the only one. I think that should be enough.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Suffice it to say that I, personally, feel safer now that the term is being phased out because it directly reminded me of language that has been used to discriminate against me and harm me in real life. And I'm not the only one. I think that should be enough.
Hi Ophidimancer,
Can you give me an example if it doesn't cause you harm into doing so? That way, it could enlighten me in what people are referring to. Because so far, it feels to me that it is the fear of racism that promotes the change...which cause my immediate disagreement but if there is something more specific that i can relate/agree to, maybe it will help me change my mind on the subject.
I see that this thread appears to be attracting the attention of some rather unsavoury individuals, and said individuals seem to be unwilling to listen to reason. From hereon I will be limiting my interaction with this thread to a minimum. It has become clear that even a single word changing seems to bring out the absolute worst in people. Thus far I have had to repeat myself over five times, and the user JimJimminy has PM'd me for the express purpose of calling me, and I quote, a "self-servicing partisan" as well as a racist. Please do not contact me regarding this thread in future. I will be checking in every now and then, but from now on don't expect me to be posting many more comments.
Can you give me an example if it doesn't cause you harm into doing so? That way, it could enlighten me in what people are referring to. Because so far, it feels to me that it is the fear of racism that promotes the change...which cause my immediate disagreement but if there is something more specific that i can relate/agree to, maybe it will help me change my mind on the subject.
While waiting for a response from Ophidimancer, you might find the Brittannica entry on the History of the Idea of Race relevant. (I'm reading it while posting this, and it's providing some important context.)
The sections discussing why Africans were historically preferred as slaves over the Irish and Indians is particularly interesting, as is the concept of the "Great Chain of Being".
Can you give me an example if it doesn't cause you harm into doing so? That way, it could enlighten me in what people are referring to. Because so far, it feels to me that it is the fear of racism that promotes the change...which cause my immediate disagreement but if there is something more specific that i can relate/agree to, maybe it will help me change my mind on the subject.
While waiting for a response from Ophidimancer, you might find the Brittannica entry on the History of the Idea of Race relevant. (I'm reading it while posting this, and it's providing some important context.)
The sections discussing why Africans were historically preferred as slaves over the Irish and Indians is particularly interesting, as is the concept of the "Great Chain of Being".
Thanks Memnosyne, but i'm not looking at anything outside of D&D as i would judge this unacceptable to change the word Race in D&D
Although Yurei has bring the fact that D&D has acted in a way that was unfit in the usage of the word Race which brings a good point which i would be open to listen and change my mind about it.... but anything outside of D&D is irrelevant to me
Which deems the following logic
- D&D used the word race multiple time in an harmful way and thus feels reasonable to request for a change so that the people who were hurt by this can get this out of their mind
- Human has used the word race in harmful way and thus feels un-reasonable to ask D&D to change their way in the usage of the word race for imaginary creatures to make people feel better....
Thanks Memnosyne, but i'm not looking at anything outside of D&D as i would judge this unacceptable to change the word Race in D&D
Although Yurei has bring the fact that D&D has acted in a way that was unfit in the usage of the word Race which brings a good point which i would be open to listen and change my mind about it.... but anything outside of D&D is irrelevant to me
Not applying what you read elsewhere to this specific discussion is your prerogative, but choosing to be deliberately ignorant about a subject that you are actively discussing is not ideal. (I'm not encouraging you to read a random blog.)
Why should anyone trust you to engage honestly, if you don't even know what the word you're asking about means? Language is more than a dictionary entry, and it always has been.
Thanks Memnosyne, but i'm not looking at anything outside of D&D as i would judge this unacceptable to change the word Race in D&D
Although Yurei has bring the fact that D&D has acted in a way that was unfit in the usage of the word Race which brings a good point which i would be open to listen and change my mind about it.... but anything outside of D&D is irrelevant to me
Not applying what you read elsewhere to this specific discussion is your prerogative, but choosing to be deliberately ignorant about a subject that you are actively discussing is not ideal. (I'm not encouraging you to read a random blog.)
Why should anyone trust you to engage honestly, if you don't even know what the word you're asking about means? Language is more than a dictionary entry, and it always has been.
We are having a discussion about the usage of the word Race in D&D for fictional creatures. The usage of that word can be looked at in the dictionary to understand its meaning. That stops here for me, i don't need to know who invented it for what purpose. Word changes over time and evolves, the dictionary is what is keeping the word up to date and that is thus what is relevant to me. Then we apply this to D&D.
But i am happy for you that you find interest where i don't..... I thank you for the link as this could have been something that could have spark my curiosity... but unfortunately isn't
I think i'm pretty reasonable... prove to me that D&D used it in an harmful way (i'll confirm) and i'll change my mind... it doesn't feel like it is too much to ask
As has been said several times, people believe "ancestry" isn't ideal because Pathfinder already uses it. Yes, people think that because one game uses a term, that means another game can't, for some reason.
[REDACTED]
My preference would still be "Lineage" - especially since 5e already uses it!
But I don't have any issue with Ancestry either. Granted, using Ancestry would have been easier had they done it before the past several days.
EDIT: I'm also a fan of "Origin."
I think species is the best word to use. It is scientifically defendable (in so much as science exists) and it lacks the racial undertones of other terms.
I don't think other terms like Folk, Kind, Ancestory, Origin or Lineage address any of the problems with race. These create the same issues "race" had IMO.
In the end, people are going to call it whatever they want.
For example, I've been playing D&D since like ... 1979? It's always been "OK, now pick a Race."
Even if it's officially changed to Species, or any other word, I can bet - because of over 30 years of saying "Race" - when I tell someone to pick their "species" - I am going to say "Race" out of habit.
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up
Just because you haven't heard it before doesn't mean it's not an issue
As proven here and in many other places those hurt by those words are finally being heard, and are finally being listened too . They have valid reasons for this
I mean, if I do - I do. It's not that I am against changing it. It's just 30+ years of ingrained of a game calling it "Race" has just been ingrained in my head.
The moment someone at my table, probably says something I'd probably way more conscious of it, undoubtedly. But so far, none ever have - and it's not that they're insensitive - a lot of my players are there - and for example - that term I hate "SJW" - I am on the train of hating when someone uses "********." It never used to bother me before, but like BladeGod said - the world has changed. When one of my closest friends had a son born with Down Syndrome - suddenly I was very aware of how the word "********" is viewed.
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up
"I don't understand why this is a problem, therefor it's not a problem, therefore anybody who tells me it's a problem is lying, therefore people who tell me it's a problem are villainous, and because villainy is wrong and I am opposing villains, I am righteous."
An alluring logic chain for people who've never been hurt.
Please do not contact or message me.
People wanting to make a game more welcoming and safer for people are being bigots? That's a torturous bit of logic if ever there was.
I'm glad you have the empathy to understand that. It shows that you have compassion and humanity for your fellow beings. Now consider that there are probably many topics for which you could have more sympathy that you just don't know about yet, or don't yet understand why it can be hurtful to other people. Then maybe you'll understand that the stance shouldn't be "I don't understand it, therefore I don't think it's true and will dismiss it," but rather should be more like "I don't understand it, so I will listen and consider it carefully because it is possible that the stakes for someone else are much greater than I know."
Furthermore consider how different it is for you, an individual who only has to really be considerate to those people in your circle, as compared to a public company like Wizards of the Coast, who has to be considerate of the public at large. Which means that their impact is larger and more far reaching, so they have to listen even more carefully when people give them feedback about how their products affect people.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
And that's fine - Crawford isn't going show up at your door with a swat team because you were habituated a certain way. They're asking for feedback on what to put in their official books next year, not trying to dictate what you can and cannot call a rules element in your own home.
From my experience in this thread, we are not allowed to disagree with the change as it is unconstructive since D&D has already decided to move away from the word Race.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1393-moving-on-from-race-in-one-d-d
I'd like to point out that if anyone doesnt feel confortable with a word or a change, this can be dealth with your own playing table just like any other subject or theme usualy addressed during session 0.
Sigh.
You're allowed to disagree with the change. We're allowed in turn to disagree with your disagreement, but you're allowed to disagree with the change
What you're NOT allowed to do is what people continue to insist on doing and telling people like Ophidimancer "you're lying" or "you're wrong" when they say this is a real issue that has materially impacted them. You're not allowed to scoff at the idea that words can and do cause damage and denigrate people who are arguing for the change as being whichever version of "thin-skinned" you decide to accuse them of.
If you want to participate in the discussion, you are required to accept at face value that yes - people have been harmed by words, and these words on particular. If you cannot do so, then you're right - you're not allowed to voice your words on DDB's platform anymore. Because you're making yourself part of the problem.
Please do not contact or message me.
Oh, rest assured - I completely understand it. And in the end, in the grand scheme of things - changing "Race" to be "Bloodline" (or whatever they choose to do) - that does not break the game. And I'd be fine with it. And who knows, the next session (when the new term is picked) I may call it that - just out of habit of starting with the new. If they change the term to something like Bloodline or whatever - it's not going to bother me - because I do understand how it bothers others and impacts others. Changing it to Bloodline isn't like taking out the "fighter" class entirely, you know? It's not like they're changing the game - they're just changing how something is phrased.
Similar to how Rogues were originally Thieves in old school D&D. When they changed it to Rogue, I still said, "OK, so you're rolling a thief?" Not in protest to the fact it was changed to Rogue, just a million years of always calling it Thief from 1st and 2nd edition. (These days, I now call it Rogue)! So I can be taught. :)
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up
Here is all that really matters to the conversation, in three easy to follow steps:
1. Wizards has a really bad history with race--kind of a given when one of your founders was a eugenicist decades after that whole WWII thing made eugenics passé.
2. Wizards realizes and acknowledges that they (and/or their predecessor TSR) used the word Race in a racist way.
3. They don't want to use the same word that they have historically used in a racist way.
End of story. That is their right to say "Hey, yeah, sorry we used this badly in the past--we're going to stop using it because we want to move away from our own dark history." Like the change, hate the change; intend to use the change at your table or not, no one has any right to dictate what speech Wizards uses in their own products, nor does anyone have the right to tell Wizards that Wizards cannot decree that their own past actions were harmful and something they want to move away from.
The only thought policing; the only "cancelling" that is going on here are the people who are trying to infringe on Wizards' speech and tell them "you can't make your own choices about the language in your product because I say so."
Suffice it to say that I, personally, feel safer now that the term is being phased out because it directly reminded me of language that has been used to discriminate against me and harm me in real life. And I'm not the only one. I think that should be enough.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Hi Ophidimancer,
Can you give me an example if it doesn't cause you harm into doing so? That way, it could enlighten me in what people are referring to. Because so far, it feels to me that it is the fear of racism that promotes the change...which cause my immediate disagreement but if there is something more specific that i can relate/agree to, maybe it will help me change my mind on the subject.
I see that this thread appears to be attracting the attention of some rather unsavoury individuals, and said individuals seem to be unwilling to listen to reason. From hereon I will be limiting my interaction with this thread to a minimum. It has become clear that even a single word changing seems to bring out the absolute worst in people. Thus far I have had to repeat myself over five times, and the user JimJimminy has PM'd me for the express purpose of calling me, and I quote, a "self-servicing partisan" as well as a racist. Please do not contact me regarding this thread in future. I will be checking in every now and then, but from now on don't expect me to be posting many more comments.
[REDACTED]
While waiting for a response from Ophidimancer, you might find the Brittannica entry on the History of the Idea of Race relevant. (I'm reading it while posting this, and it's providing some important context.)
The sections discussing why Africans were historically preferred as slaves over the Irish and Indians is particularly interesting, as is the concept of the "Great Chain of Being".
Thanks Memnosyne, but i'm not looking at anything outside of D&D as i would judge this unacceptable to change the word Race in D&D
Although Yurei has bring the fact that D&D has acted in a way that was unfit in the usage of the word Race which brings a good point which i would be open to listen and change my mind about it.... but anything outside of D&D is irrelevant to me
Which deems the following logic
- D&D used the word race multiple time in an harmful way and thus feels reasonable to request for a change so that the people who were hurt by this can get this out of their mind
- Human has used the word race in harmful way and thus feels un-reasonable to ask D&D to change their way in the usage of the word race for imaginary creatures to make people feel better....
Not applying what you read elsewhere to this specific discussion is your prerogative, but choosing to be deliberately ignorant about a subject that you are actively discussing is not ideal. (I'm not encouraging you to read a random blog.)
Why should anyone trust you to engage honestly, if you don't even know what the word you're asking about means? Language is more than a dictionary entry, and it always has been.
We are having a discussion about the usage of the word Race in D&D for fictional creatures. The usage of that word can be looked at in the dictionary to understand its meaning. That stops here for me, i don't need to know who invented it for what purpose. Word changes over time and evolves, the dictionary is what is keeping the word up to date and that is thus what is relevant to me. Then we apply this to D&D.
But i am happy for you that you find interest where i don't..... I thank you for the link as this could have been something that could have spark my curiosity... but unfortunately isn't
I think i'm pretty reasonable... prove to me that D&D used it in an harmful way (i'll confirm) and i'll change my mind... it doesn't feel like it is too much to ask