So, you're not going to answer the question? Got it.
At any rate, BACK TO THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD, the response is too little too late and very much wanting. It's clear they are in damage control but I doubt this actually helps.
Of course they’re in damage control. But I for one believe that they are/were very concerned about the impact of NFTs were and figured this was an easy end-around to nip that in the bud before someone started making money off of their licence. Which they are wholly allowed to do and SHOULD do.
They ****ed up. They heard from the community. And now they’re attempting to listen to the community. That doesn’t make me a bootlicker, it makes me a realist.
This is how corporations work. If you don’t like it, find a kickstarter and go have fun. There’s nothing wrong with us all enjoying our favorite flavors.
They're not listening to the community though or attempting to listen, because they're lying through their teeth and knowingly gaslighting said community.
Why believe them we know they are lying. If they weren't they wouldn't be deleting statements saying you could just keep using any past version of the OGL from their past QnAs. We will only have any clarity on their intentions once a final document is published and until then the duplicitous weasel worded gas lighters deserve zero benefit of the doubt.
I don't trust Wizards of the Coast to police what they consider to be hateful content. They Hadozee had an awesome origin referencing the Planet of the Apes, fitting for a simian species. But because some at WotC took objection to such, I can never update my digital copy of Spelljammer, because if I do, they'll digitally steal the content about the Hadozee. "Race" as a term denoting biologically distinct peoples in fantasy settings goes back at least to Tolkien, but WotC suddenly think of themselves as more enlightened than the one true Lore Bard, and have decided to play musical chairs with the nomenclature so that it's "species" now. It's clear what side of the political aisle Wizard of the Coast is on, but their products - including the OCL - should be fully usable by all fans, regardless of political persuasion.
WotC does not get the benefit of the doubt from me. I don’t have 40 years in the hobby like some of us here, but I’ve been on board since early 3.5e, and what was originally excitement at the release of 4th edition became sadness and contempt with its abandonment of the OGL. And while WotC had the foresight back then to not mess with the OGL, they experienced a generation of D&D where little 3rd party content was released, and players wandered off to other games, or stuck with older established content.
Now I don’t personally care if they want OneD&D under some new license.that will have more of an effect of their life than it does on mine. If they don’t want 3rd party content for OneD&D they can continue on their path, and we will likely have another slow generation of D&D where not much goes on and people continue playing 5e or move to other games. Them completely trying to undo 20 years of good will and collaboration with the community, this mutual benefit we have all had together for so long, their move to destroy that. That’s enough. I had been considering rebuying my core books through dndbeyond, just to facilitate a faster indexable search through official materials when world building and character creating, but I’ve no interest in giving them any more money right now, and the coming months, will determine if I ever decide to give them my money again, for printed media, or anything else.
I already own Fantasy Grounds, and Foundary VTT, so I don’t need another VTT, so they can’t win me back there, I own just about all the content I actively want to use right now, and they are actively trying to eliminate peoples ability to create things that I would otherwise use. So, they need to back off from all of that for one, genuinely and public ally admit fault, and their original intentions as well as admit to how it was actively fueled by greed and envy. And while this is likely to never happen, I would need to them to commit to a new open license that closes the language gaps that made them think this was going to work in their favor in the first place. In place of that, committing to updating OGL 1.0a to add language specifically, and only, to solidify in writing it’s irrevocable nature, and further revisions are new licenses and do not overwrite previous license versions.
Their apology comes of too me, like the phrase “I’m sorry you feel that way.” Dismissive and disingenuous, they know exactly what they were doing, and so do we. WotC is starting at square one again. They are going to have to work hard, to win back the good faith of the community. Like an unfaithful spouse who has been caught once before, I feel no matter how they try, they will always have eyes on them more keenly than ever before and the idea that they will try and do it again will always be on the minds of the people.
In the end though, we don’t need their rules, and we can do what we want. At the end of the day, this is our game table, and they want to be a part of it, so it’s on them to convince us to bring them along for the adventure.
Look, the community commented on no one being able to go toe-to-toe with Hasbro in court as they would be able to outlast or outspend anyone in a lawsuit.
I am all for excluding racist and discriminatory content that uses the OGL 1.0a.
So, if they have that much money...
Leave 1.0a alone and let Hasbro duke it out in court with creators that use 1.0a to create that content. If we're so sure Hasbro will win, then there is nothing to worry about.
1.0a safe, Hasbro spending money to defend the hobby from racists, and the community is using a Corporation's money to keep the hobby safe from those who would do harm under OGL 1.0a.
seriously...we get you hate what WoTC were trying to do...a lot of us agree. But dont go after other people personally just because they are choosing a different opinion than yours.
as a community, coming together is what made us strong enough to force their hand. splitting up and attacking others literally 20 minutes after they recant is just stupid.
They didn't recant. Apologists always catch it in the teeth because they deny reality. They were engaged in ill intended activity and they refuse to acknowledge that. Instead, they say "I didn't have sex with her honey! We were in bed naked because out clothes were stolen!" So their 'apology' is simply saying "We are sorry that we got caught. We will go back to the drawing board about how to be the villains of this story."
seriously...we get you hate what WoTC were trying to do...a lot of us agree. But dont go after other people personally just because they are choosing a different opinion than yours.
as a community, coming together is what made us strong enough to force their hand. splitting up and attacking others literally 20 minutes after they recant is just stupid.
They didn't recant. Apologists always catch it in the teeth because they deny reality. They were engaged in ill intended activity and they refuse to acknowledge that. Instead, they say "I didn't have sex with her honey! We were in bed naked because out clothes were stolen!" So their 'apology' is simply saying "We are sorry that we got caught. We will go back to the drawing board about how to be the villains of this story."
sooo...you're saying we should turn on each other because you feel WoTC lied to you?
my point is we as the customer should stick together...i'm having trouble understanding your counterpoint.
seriously...we get you hate what WoTC were trying to do...a lot of us agree. But dont go after other people personally just because they are choosing a different opinion than yours.
as a community, coming together is what made us strong enough to force their hand. splitting up and attacking others literally 20 minutes after they recant is just stupid.
They didn't recant. Apologists always catch it in the teeth because they deny reality. They were engaged in ill intended activity and they refuse to acknowledge that. Instead, they say "I didn't have sex with her honey! We were in bed naked because out clothes were stolen!" So their 'apology' is simply saying "We are sorry that we got caught. We will go back to the drawing board about how to be the villains of this story."
sooo...you're saying we should turn on each other because you feel WoTC lied to you?
my point is we as the customer should stick together...i'm having trouble understanding your counterpoint.
No. I'm not saying we should turn on each other. I am saying you are receiving vitriol because you are trying to be an apologist for people who are not actually apologizing. They are gaslighting. And you keep coming off as if you are taking their side while they don't take actual responsibility. When they admit that they did wrong (not try to play it off as a misunderstanding and that fixing this was always their plan), then you can support them. Doing it before that gets you beat down because you are simply on the wrong side.
seriously...we get you hate what WoTC were trying to do...a lot of us agree. But dont go after other people personally just because they are choosing a different opinion than yours.
as a community, coming together is what made us strong enough to force their hand. splitting up and attacking others literally 20 minutes after they recant is just stupid.
They didn't recant. Apologists always catch it in the teeth because they deny reality. They were engaged in ill intended activity and they refuse to acknowledge that. Instead, they say "I didn't have sex with her honey! We were in bed naked because out clothes were stolen!" So their 'apology' is simply saying "We are sorry that we got caught. We will go back to the drawing board about how to be the villains of this story."
sooo...you're saying we should turn on each other because you feel WoTC lied to you?
my point is we as the customer should stick together...i'm having trouble understanding your counterpoint.
No. I'm not saying we should turn on each other. I am saying you are receiving vitriol because you are trying to be an apologist for people who are not actually apologizing. They are gaslighting. And you keep coming off as if you are taking their side while they don't take actual responsibility. When they admit that they did wrong (not try to play it off as a misunderstanding and that fixing this was always their plan), then you can support them. Doing it before that gets you beat down because you are simply on the wrong side.
when i have taken their side? when have i apologized for them? they put out a statement, they were forced to backtrack due to the community coming together and i acknowledged our strength when unified. what side am i even on? ive never said, but you seem to know. \
literally every thing you just said about me is a complete fabrication. i endorse unity among the playerbase against WoTC overreach, you take that as if i'm an enemy.
Spelljammer issue was the people being offended didn't actually understand history and they were offended by the wrong thing. The people who could be offended, those who were enslaved by the Moors and the ravaging Vikings, didn't complain - those were populations more readily matched to what happened to the the race/species as originally written. Curse of Strahd's complaints tended to be the same - the offense didn't match the actual material. It was a lot of offense in search of a reason/cause and working to apply what they read to it. These sort of offenses will never end. Someone will ALWAYS be offended by something - it's not hard to find offense if you go in looking for it.
Guys, both of you are passionate about the hobby and our community. That much is clear. Can we bury this, please? I'm just asking, not making demands. Each of you has your side and I understand that. You both have been community members, at least on DND Beyond, for sometime. Please let this go as water under the bridge, please.
The most important parts of that not apology is this statement:
Content *already* released under 1.0a will also remain unaffected.
This makes it clear that they believe they can, and thus WILL change the license however they see fit whenever they see fit. That one word tells you that they do not believe that 1.0a is irrevocable and therefore they have the rights to do anything they can.
All of their plans have not changed in the slightest, they just are going to make us take one bite at a time.
The most important parts of that not apology is this statement:
Content *already* released under 1.0a will also remain unaffected.
This makes it clear that they believe they can, and thus WILL change the license however they see fit whenever they see fit. That one word tells you that they do not believe that 1.0a is irrevocable and therefore they have the rights to do anything they can.
All of their plans have not changed in the slightest, they just are going to make us take one bite at a time.
If I misunderstood you, I apologize. But usually those that say "why are we turning on each other" are the ones whose view point is drawing fire. For instance, if the community is widely angry about both the OGL 1.1, Hasbro's naked intentions behind it, their attempts to explain it away as a misunderstanding, etc. and someone tries to tell others to calm down. Go home and chill, they are likely going to draw fire. That's my point. Calling for people to stop being angry when Hasbro is saying "don't believe your lying eyes, I was always faithful, baby" is going to lead to anger being placed at the doorstep of the person arguing for the forgive and forget mentality that comes off as tone deaf.
Well, WotC / Hasbro's response was full of lies and blame. Yes, it backed off 5E and it's OGL 1.0a license and competing VTTs are no longer (for now) under siege, but the door is still open for requiring D&D's third and final death save.
I still have ZERO doubt, they are not done and OneD&D is a plan to still a means to an end for them rather than a customer / community centric product.
The only acceptable solution going forward is WotC / Hasbro to licenses OneD&D under the Open RPG Gaming License being created by the greater RPG community and allow all past D&D products to also operate under that license (or OGL 1.0a, end users choice) or D&D might as well be Left4Dead. (yep, a console game since that is how they are trying to run D&D)
The other requirement is Chris Cocks, Cynthia Williams and any other internal Hasbro, WotC, DnDBeyond employees that were driving this debacle must be removed from their respective companies.
This will be my last post and last time I put any money to any of these companies until the above expectations are met.
See my fellow TTRPGers *elsewhere*.
SlaughterMachine.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Info, Inflow, Overload. Knowledge Black Hole Imminent!
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They're not listening to the community though or attempting to listen, because they're lying through their teeth and knowingly gaslighting said community.
nevermind...i just missed it on the second reading
Why yes, we can.
https://dnd.wizards.com/products/spelljammer
https://www.dndbeyond.com/marketplace/adventures/curse-of-strahd
that's hilarious...but technically neither used the OGL as they are official products :)
Why believe them we know they are lying. If they weren't they wouldn't be deleting statements saying you could just keep using any past version of the OGL from their past QnAs. We will only have any clarity on their intentions once a final document is published and until then the duplicitous weasel worded gas lighters deserve zero benefit of the doubt.
I don't trust Wizards of the Coast to police what they consider to be hateful content. They Hadozee had an awesome origin referencing the Planet of the Apes, fitting for a simian species. But because some at WotC took objection to such, I can never update my digital copy of Spelljammer, because if I do, they'll digitally steal the content about the Hadozee. "Race" as a term denoting biologically distinct peoples in fantasy settings goes back at least to Tolkien, but WotC suddenly think of themselves as more enlightened than the one true Lore Bard, and have decided to play musical chairs with the nomenclature so that it's "species" now. It's clear what side of the political aisle Wizard of the Coast is on, but their products - including the OCL - should be fully usable by all fans, regardless of political persuasion.
Haha, nice one :)
WotC does not get the benefit of the doubt from me. I don’t have 40 years in the hobby like some of us here, but I’ve been on board since early 3.5e, and what was originally excitement at the release of 4th edition became sadness and contempt with its abandonment of the OGL. And while WotC had the foresight back then to not mess with the OGL, they experienced a generation of D&D where little 3rd party content was released, and players wandered off to other games, or stuck with older established content.
Now I don’t personally care if they want OneD&D under some new license.that will have more of an effect of their life than it does on mine. If they don’t want 3rd party content for OneD&D they can continue on their path, and we will likely have another slow generation of D&D where not much goes on and people continue playing 5e or move to other games. Them completely trying to undo 20 years of good will and collaboration with the community, this mutual benefit we have all had together for so long, their move to destroy that. That’s enough. I had been considering rebuying my core books through dndbeyond, just to facilitate a faster indexable search through official materials when world building and character creating, but I’ve no interest in giving them any more money right now, and the coming months, will determine if I ever decide to give them my money again, for printed media, or anything else.
I already own Fantasy Grounds, and Foundary VTT, so I don’t need another VTT, so they can’t win me back there, I own just about all the content I actively want to use right now, and they are actively trying to eliminate peoples ability to create things that I would otherwise use. So, they need to back off from all of that for one, genuinely and public ally admit fault, and their original intentions as well as admit to how it was actively fueled by greed and envy. And while this is likely to never happen, I would need to them to commit to a new open license that closes the language gaps that made them think this was going to work in their favor in the first place. In place of that, committing to updating OGL 1.0a to add language specifically, and only, to solidify in writing it’s irrevocable nature, and further revisions are new licenses and do not overwrite previous license versions.
Their apology comes of too me, like the phrase “I’m sorry you feel that way.” Dismissive and disingenuous, they know exactly what they were doing, and so do we. WotC is starting at square one again. They are going to have to work hard, to win back the good faith of the community. Like an unfaithful spouse who has been caught once before, I feel no matter how they try, they will always have eyes on them more keenly than ever before and the idea that they will try and do it again will always be on the minds of the people.
In the end though, we don’t need their rules, and we can do what we want. At the end of the day, this is our game table, and they want to be a part of it, so it’s on them to convince us to bring them along for the adventure.
Line item number 1 cracks me up.
I'll take "Pandering to the current sociopolitical climate for $500 Alex"
Look, the community commented on no one being able to go toe-to-toe with Hasbro in court as they would be able to outlast or outspend anyone in a lawsuit.
I am all for excluding racist and discriminatory content that uses the OGL 1.0a.
So, if they have that much money...
Leave 1.0a alone and let Hasbro duke it out in court with creators that use 1.0a to create that content. If we're so sure Hasbro will win, then there is nothing to worry about.
1.0a safe, Hasbro spending money to defend the hobby from racists, and the community is using a Corporation's money to keep the hobby safe from those who would do harm under OGL 1.0a.
They didn't recant. Apologists always catch it in the teeth because they deny reality. They were engaged in ill intended activity and they refuse to acknowledge that. Instead, they say "I didn't have sex with her honey! We were in bed naked because out clothes were stolen!" So their 'apology' is simply saying "We are sorry that we got caught. We will go back to the drawing board about how to be the villains of this story."
sooo...you're saying we should turn on each other because you feel WoTC lied to you?
my point is we as the customer should stick together...i'm having trouble understanding your counterpoint.
No. I'm not saying we should turn on each other. I am saying you are receiving vitriol because you are trying to be an apologist for people who are not actually apologizing. They are gaslighting. And you keep coming off as if you are taking their side while they don't take actual responsibility. When they admit that they did wrong (not try to play it off as a misunderstanding and that fixing this was always their plan), then you can support them. Doing it before that gets you beat down because you are simply on the wrong side.
when i have taken their side? when have i apologized for them? they put out a statement, they were forced to backtrack due to the community coming together and i acknowledged our strength when unified. what side am i even on? ive never said, but you seem to know. \
literally every thing you just said about me is a complete fabrication. i endorse unity among the playerbase against WoTC overreach, you take that as if i'm an enemy.
Huh?
Spelljammer issue was the people being offended didn't actually understand history and they were offended by the wrong thing. The people who could be offended, those who were enslaved by the Moors and the ravaging Vikings, didn't complain - those were populations more readily matched to what happened to the the race/species as originally written.
Curse of Strahd's complaints tended to be the same - the offense didn't match the actual material. It was a lot of offense in search of a reason/cause and working to apply what they read to it.
These sort of offenses will never end. Someone will ALWAYS be offended by something - it's not hard to find offense if you go in looking for it.
Guys, both of you are passionate about the hobby and our community. That much is clear. Can we bury this, please? I'm just asking, not making demands. Each of you has your side and I understand that. You both have been community members, at least on DND Beyond, for sometime. Please let this go as water under the bridge, please.
The most important parts of that not apology is this statement:
Content *already* released under 1.0a will also remain unaffected.
This makes it clear that they believe they can, and thus WILL change the license however they see fit whenever they see fit. That one word tells you that they do not believe that 1.0a is irrevocable and therefore they have the rights to do anything they can.
All of their plans have not changed in the slightest, they just are going to make us take one bite at a time.
I say no. I remain unsubscribed.
Good point to consider.
Wheezal
If I misunderstood you, I apologize. But usually those that say "why are we turning on each other" are the ones whose view point is drawing fire. For instance, if the community is widely angry about both the OGL 1.1, Hasbro's naked intentions behind it, their attempts to explain it away as a misunderstanding, etc. and someone tries to tell others to calm down. Go home and chill, they are likely going to draw fire. That's my point. Calling for people to stop being angry when Hasbro is saying "don't believe your lying eyes, I was always faithful, baby" is going to lead to anger being placed at the doorstep of the person arguing for the forgive and forget mentality that comes off as tone deaf.
Well, WotC / Hasbro's response was full of lies and blame. Yes, it backed off 5E and it's OGL 1.0a license and competing VTTs are no longer (for now) under siege, but the door is still open for requiring D&D's third and final death save.
I still have ZERO doubt, they are not done and OneD&D is a plan to still a means to an end for them rather than a customer / community centric product.
The only acceptable solution going forward is WotC / Hasbro to licenses OneD&D under the Open RPG Gaming License being created by the greater RPG community and allow all past D&D products to also operate under that license (or OGL 1.0a, end users choice) or D&D might as well be Left4Dead. (yep, a console game since that is how they are trying to run D&D)
The other requirement is Chris Cocks, Cynthia Williams and any other internal Hasbro, WotC, DnDBeyond employees that were driving this debacle must be removed from their respective companies.
This will be my last post and last time I put any money to any of these companies until the above expectations are met.
See my fellow TTRPGers *elsewhere*.
SlaughterMachine.
Info, Inflow, Overload. Knowledge Black Hole Imminent!