Is this forum going to get shutdown to silence the community as was the case with the original, official forum?
Even If it is, you folks will still have Reddit.
Or Parler
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
One thing that is notable is that neither Wizards of the Coast or D&D has a forum. It used to have one and was shutdown after the outrage prompted by 4th edition which essentially resulted in the forums being a battle ground for D&D's identity back then.
Now fast forward a few years and DnDBeyond has become the new, official D&D forum and as was the case during the 4e days, its become a battle ground over D&D's identity.
Is this forum going to get shutdown to silence the community as was the case with the original, official forum?
I think you'll be ok, I mean, did you really join D&D Beyond just two days ago so you could join the "conflict?"
Little, if any, of the press generated by this controversy has cited discussions of D&D Beyond's Forum or even its much more active Discord. If anything DDB's forum is likely useful to WotC in that it can be used as a barometer or cliff notes to how the brands being reported and commented on elsewhere are being received by what it can class as its fanbase. Notice when WotC directly engages its critics during the OGL flap, while it does usually post that engagement on DDB's main page, they don't announce those engagements here. They do announce those engagements through a number of other social media channels.
The 4e flap took place when the community eco-system of D&D, like many online communities, wasn't nearly as big as it today, nor as widely distributed over a number of media platforms. How many D&D YouTubers, who get 1000s of times more views than any forum post here, existed then compared to now?
The D&D Beyond subscriber drop is alleged to be the one thing that brought WotC into something close to a discussion with the D&D community. That movement wasn't started or organized here (fact: very few members of D&D Beyond have ever been active on this forum).
D&D Beyond may change its community engagement platform as One D&D becomes whatever they'll officially call the next iteration of D&D. That's frankly to be expected. I imagine most users under 40 probably see these forums as antiquated in functionality and purpose, again see Discord v Forum usage knowns. But to pretend WotC is going to "shut down the forums" either out of raw spite or at some effort of brand message control, that's some Chicken Little level nonsense. It wouldn't accomplish anything and despite the folks registering new accounts to create vanity takes on the demise of D&D or whatever, there's still a lot of activity on this forum that's got nothing to do with the OGL flap. There's more to the board than the General Discussion section.
For the record, I'm not new to the forums, this account is new to the forums. I have chosen not to use my main account mainly to avoid mod retribution. The last time there were debates similar to this one, I was harassed on a daily basis until I was silenced. Opinions that are not popular and/or not in support of D&D and Wizards of the Coast get moded more severely than those that do. Anyone who spends more than a few days on this forum knows that.
I watched a Dev Update, non-D&D Beyond, with this site's former co-founder. It was a breath of fresh air after what we had after he left, and what we no longer get at all. D&D Beyond may as well be a black hole when it comes to site info these days. With One D&D due in 2024, and my lack of appreciation of that subject (just another version of 4e in my opinion) I'd already decided to either stay with 5e or switch away. This OGL fiasco made up my mind, and I have started spending my money elsewhere. It will take years before I can build up my resource collection to where I have it here on D&D Beyond, but with One D&D, the leeching of D&D Lore, the socializing of D&D, I will leave D& until whatever comes after One D&D; just like I did in the era of 4e. Until I do, I'll keep my D&D Beyond account active since I have been using it to run my encounters for a while now. (<sigh> The Encounter Builder is still in beta after all this time. I knew the site would die a slow death when WotC took over. They CANNOT handle digital. They cannot even handle a forum of their own).
I have already had 1 notification for a non-constructive post. A few more and I will cancel my account since WotC now seems to be getting into censorship . . .
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
It would be like them saying "la-lala-la-la we don't want to hear people being unhappy about what we want to do with our license so since we are making loads of money from 5e anyway [for now] we want to avoid people not knowing of this thing finding these posts and change their mind on buying our products", which would be a spectacular bad decision and would have the exact oppostie effect.
So, no, I don't believe they would be this bad at reading the situation.
The reason all this is happening is because they didn't understand the situation with the OGL. Apparently they just expected to de-authorize OGL 1.0, destroying a business model that's worked for an entire industry for two decades. They they expected all their 3rd party creators to look at OGL 1.1 and say "Yeah, no problem", comply with the terms, and give WOTC their hard-earned money, along with the rights to everything they created going forward.
These aren't people who excel at "reading the room."
I have to admit you have a point there, I might still be too optimistic, even though I am disgusted by this whole situation...
It might still be lingering hope... DDB has been in the hands of WotC for almost a year now (and to be honest, it shows), but I believe there are still extremely good people working on this site, that will do what they can to keep the forums alive.
Unsolicited reminder (not aimed to anyone in particular): even if there is turmoil and the temperature is rising, don't go harrass working people connected to DDB or WotC, they have even less blame than us in all this, the suits are the one to blame for this s**tshow.
Also an excellent point.
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Behind every successful Warlock, there's an angry mob.
Did another thread just disappear two minutes ago? I was posting a spelling correction on something in it and now I can not find the thread or my comment in my history.
One thing that is notable is that neither Wizards of the Coast or D&D has a forum. It used to have one and was shutdown after the outrage prompted by 4th edition which essentially resulted in the forums being a battle ground for D&D's identity back then.
Now fast forward a few years and DnDBeyond has become the new, official D&D forum and as was the case during the 4e days, its become a battle ground over D&D's identity.
Is this forum going to get shutdown to silence the community as was the case with the original, official forum?
If DnDShorts is correct, and his insider info is right, than the plan was always to close down DnDB and all other similar sites. Since I tend to believe his report, and it seems likely to be true with everything that has come out. My Magic 8 ball says "Very Likely"
Meanwhile, this place is becoming an anti-WotC echo chamber where no one or next to no one is discussing the actual game any more. In fact, people are actively encouraging others to abandon D&D for other games.
Very much disagree. I'm upset with the Leadership, ie the Chris Cocks. But The Staff, and Devs of WotC are like family, I'm very much on their side. I'm angry at one wallstreet exec who wants to milk D&D until it is dead. Just like all those nameless MMOs that we ditched for aggressive exploitative monetization.
One thing that is notable is that neither Wizards of the Coast or D&D has a forum. It used to have one and was shutdown after the outrage prompted by 4th edition which essentially resulted in the forums being a battle ground for D&D's identity back then.
Now fast forward a few years and DnDBeyond has become the new, official D&D forum and as was the case during the 4e days, its become a battle ground over D&D's identity.
Is this forum going to get shutdown to silence the community as was the case with the original, official forum?
If DnDShorts is correct, and his insider info is right, than the plan was always to close down DnDB and all other similar sites. Since I tend to believe his report, and it seems likely to be true with everything that has come out. My Magic 8 ball says "Very Likely"
This would be the same DnDShorts whose last piece of “insider information” turned out to be a months-old hoax? Real reliable source you have there.
Hasbro spent $143 million acquiring D&D Beyond. They have spent their last few quarterly reports to investors talking about what a great source of long-term revenue it would be. If your position is that Hasbro wants to throw away one of their biggest recent corporate expenditures and one of the major things they have been hyping to keep investor confidence (and therefore their stock prices) up, you’ll need a better source than someone who, just this week, exposed themselves as a hack.
One thing that is notable is that neither Wizards of the Coast or D&D has a forum. It used to have one and was shutdown after the outrage prompted by 4th edition which essentially resulted in the forums being a battle ground for D&D's identity back then.
Now fast forward a few years and DnDBeyond has become the new, official D&D forum and as was the case during the 4e days, its become a battle ground over D&D's identity.
Is this forum going to get shutdown to silence the community as was the case with the original, official forum?
If DnDShorts is correct, and his insider info is right, than the plan was always to close down DnDB and all other similar sites. Since I tend to believe his report, and it seems likely to be true with everything that has come out. My Magic 8 ball says "Very Likely"
This would be the same DnDShorts whose last piece of “insider information” turned out to be a months-old hoax? Real reliable source you have there.
Hasbro spent $143 million acquiring D&D Beyond. They have spent their last few quarterly reports to investors talking about what a great source of long-term revenue it would be. If your position is that Hasbro wants to throw away one of their biggest recent corporate expenditures and one of the major things they have been hyping to keep investor confidence (and therefore their stock prices) up, you’ll need a better source than someone who, just this week, exposed themselves as a hack.
Not just a revenue stream, but a data stream. What classes/subclasses/species do people play, actually play and not just theorycraft. Which monsters do DMs use more often. How often do campaigns get past level 12. Where, geographically are their players, what days of the week and times of day do they play. Probably a cookie or two giving them demographic data and other information about our other browser habits. And we pay them for the privilege of giving them all this. This place is a gold mine sitting on top of a platinum mine.
If DnDShorts is correct, and his insider info is right, than the plan was always to close down DnDB and all other similar sites. Since I tend to believe his report, and it seems likely to be true with everything that has come out. My Magic 8 ball says "Very Likely"
Wasn't D&D Shorts the one who spread false information about D&D Beyond raising their subscription? And wasn't he the one who invented ridiculous hypothetical scenarios to explain how Wizards of the Coast will revoke your Open Game License permissions for jaywalking?
Yeah, this guy seems really trustworthy and not at all misleading. I'm sure all the tons of anonymous sources he has in Wizards are way more trustworthy than actual verified insiders.
No offense, but this guy has thrown his credibility out the window in the past couple of weeks. Please forgive me for my sarcasm. I'm just genuinely appalled that anyone would believe unverified rumors because D&D Shorts says they might be true.
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
If DnDShorts is correct, and his insider info is right, than the plan was always to close down DnDB and all other similar sites. Since I tend to believe his report, and it seems likely to be true with everything that has come out. My Magic 8 ball says "Very Likely"
Wasn't D&D Shorts the one who spread false information about D&D Beyond raising their subscription? And wasn't he the one who invented ridiculous hypothetical scenarios to explain how Wizards of the Coast will revoke your Open Game License permissions for jaywalking?
Yeah, this guy seems really trustworthy and not at all misleading. I'm sure all the tons of anonymous sources he has in Wizards are way more trustworthy than actual verified insiders.
No offense, but this guy has thrown his credibility out the window in the past couple of weeks. Please forgive me for my sarcasm. I'm just genuinely appalled that anyone would believe unverified rumors because D&D Shorts says they might be true.
The number of people who uncritically swallow whatever a YouTube channel feeds them remains absolutely baffling to me
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
For the record, I'm not new to the forums, this account is new to the forums. I have chosen not to use my main account mainly to avoid mod retribution. The last time there were debates similar to this one, I was harassed on a daily basis until I was silenced. Opinions that are not popular and/or not in support of D&D and Wizards of the Coast get moded more severely than those that do. Anyone who spends more than a few days on this forum knows that.
Proffering you're really an active user under another screen name (which is possible, but, given your stated paranoia, is impossible to verify, so you've dug yourself into that hole) doesn't really lend credibility on the substance of my post's and many other posts' responding to your demonstrably ill-informed OP that clearly lacks an understanding of this forum's utility on DDB, or this forum's weight or lack thereof in the much broader conversation on the OGL. I can be and have been very critical of DDB's practices (some of my most popular posts was incredibly critical), and I've always been impressed with DDB's tolerance for having such criticism discussed in its own forum. For folks who feel they've been silenced, it's most often not what you say (though sure there are some folks who really don't know what's acceptable speech in polite conversation) but how you say it.
One thing that is notable is that neither Wizards of the Coast or D&D has a forum. It used to have one and was shutdown after the outrage prompted by 4th edition which essentially resulted in the forums being a battle ground for D&D's identity back then.
Now fast forward a few years and DnDBeyond has become the new, official D&D forum and as was the case during the 4e days, its become a battle ground over D&D's identity.
Is this forum going to get shutdown to silence the community as was the case with the original, official forum?
I don't want it to happen but if enough people leave, why would they still feel the point to the expense of keeping the forums around?
Reddit and other forums are out there. No one would be silenced.
Meanwhile, this place is becoming an anti-WotC echo chamber where no one or next to no one is discussing the actual game any more. In fact, people are actively encouraging others to abandon D&D for other games.
It’s important that we continue to call out WotC for these disgusting hits to our community. The more of a ruckus we cause, (especially on their own forums) the more likely we will be heard.
It’s important that we continue to call out WotC for these disgusting hits to our community. The more of a ruckus we cause, (especially on their own forums) the more likely we will be heard.
Hi, this is a thread about whether WotC will delete these forums. What "disgusting hits" exist in this context other than the OP's poorly informed conjecture and free associative thinking? And please do read how much volume of the DDB user base these forums actually speak for, especially in comparison to DDB's own Discord, and do tell us how that weighs against the much broader D&D Discussion.
You want to know how D&D Beyond heard the community? Subscription drops. You want to know where the the subject of subscription drops got propagated and weaponized? Not here. Go look at the view count for the subscription dropping threads, recognizing those views aren't unique users. Compare that to the 10s of thousands who actually dropped DDB. They didn't come from here. You're free to pretend DDB forums are some fulcrum or bulwark in the War on WotC or the D&D Begone movement or whatever you want to pretend. But it is demonstrably not the case if you had a modicum of attention to how and where the influential discourse is happening as you do exhibit your passion.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
One thing that is notable is that neither Wizards of the Coast or D&D has a forum. It used to have one and was shutdown after the outrage prompted by 4th edition which essentially resulted in the forums being a battle ground for D&D's identity back then.
Now fast forward a few years and DnDBeyond has become the new, official D&D forum and as was the case during the 4e days, its become a battle ground over D&D's identity.
Is this forum going to get shutdown to silence the community as was the case with the original, official forum?
If DnDShorts is correct, and his insider info is right, than the plan was always to close down DnDB and all other similar sites. Since I tend to believe his report, and it seems likely to be true with everything that has come out. My Magic 8 ball says "Very Likely"
This would be the same DnDShorts whose last piece of “insider information” turned out to be a months-old hoax? Real reliable source you have there.
Hasbro spent $143 million acquiring D&D Beyond. They have spent their last few quarterly reports to investors talking about what a great source of long-term revenue it would be. If your position is that Hasbro wants to throw away one of their biggest recent corporate expenditures and one of the major things they have been hyping to keep investor confidence (and therefore their stock prices) up, you’ll need a better source than someone who, just this week, exposed themselves as a hack.
Not just a revenue stream, but a data stream. What classes/subclasses/species do people play, actually play and not just theorycraft. Which monsters do DMs use more often. How often do campaigns get past level 12. Where, geographically are their players, what days of the week and times of day do they play. Probably a cookie or two giving them demographic data and other information about our other browser habits. And we pay them for the privilege of giving them all this. This place is a gold mine sitting on top of a platinum mine.
Exactly. For what its worth I watched the D&D Shorts video, and I don't think even he would say at this point that D&D Beyond is doomed. 1) without a timeline opinion and whatnot could have changed internally regarding D&D Beyond. 2) if the guy who doesn't like it is also saying that people should pay more for the service, then his mind is not on closing it down. 3) D&D Beyond has 13 million+ accounts. While I'm sure a large number of those have never spent a dime, even if half of them have, that is an amazing online reach that currently doesn't exist for WotC in practically any other way.
I would like to see this all work out in favor of the player and WOTC with everyone happy.
Sometimes I think many on this forum would rather the entire situation turn into a dumpster fire... regardless of whether there could be a good outcome or not.
For what it's worth. IIRC, Hasbro acquired WOTC around start of 4th and pretty much had WOTC want to abandon (full-on abandon) 3.5/Paizo . The official forums were still around back then, but it was constant pointed out problems with 4th (again this is going off of memory and subject to error), there was threads GALORE about 3.5 and the main URL still worked on the 3.5e archives. You didn't even need to go to 'archive.xyz' instead 'www.wyz'. Forums were shutdown to help sell 4th which didn't help much. They hid behind the shield of 'you can go to other sites'. This was Youtube and twitter weren't as big. Heck, Myspace was still a thing.
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Or Parler
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
For the record, I'm not new to the forums, this account is new to the forums. I have chosen not to use my main account mainly to avoid mod retribution. The last time there were debates similar to this one, I was harassed on a daily basis until I was silenced. Opinions that are not popular and/or not in support of D&D and Wizards of the Coast get moded more severely than those that do. Anyone who spends more than a few days on this forum knows that.
I watched a Dev Update, non-D&D Beyond, with this site's former co-founder. It was a breath of fresh air after what we had after he left, and what we no longer get at all. D&D Beyond may as well be a black hole when it comes to site info these days. With One D&D due in 2024, and my lack of appreciation of that subject (just another version of 4e in my opinion) I'd already decided to either stay with 5e or switch away. This OGL fiasco made up my mind, and I have started spending my money elsewhere. It will take years before I can build up my resource collection to where I have it here on D&D Beyond, but with One D&D, the leeching of D&D Lore, the socializing of D&D, I will leave D& until whatever comes after One D&D; just like I did in the era of 4e.
Until I do, I'll keep my D&D Beyond account active since I have been using it to run my encounters for a while now. (<sigh> The Encounter Builder is still in beta after all this time. I knew the site would die a slow death when WotC took over. They CANNOT handle digital. They cannot even handle a forum of their own).
I have already had 1 notification for a non-constructive post. A few more and I will cancel my account since WotC now seems to be getting into censorship . . .
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Also an excellent point.
Behind every successful Warlock, there's an angry mob.
No. I don’t think they’re gonna shut the forums down.
I really like D&D, especially Ravenloft, Exandria and the Upside Down from Stranger Things. My pronouns are she/they (genderfae).
Did another thread just disappear two minutes ago? I was posting a spelling correction on something in it and now I can not find the thread or my comment in my history.
Agreed
Long live the dragon slayers, long live the spider guild, long live the forums.
I want you to know. You are going to lose. You are going to lose badly. You’re going to lose badly and it’s going to be awesome.
I agree as well.
⌜╔═════════════ The Board ══════════════╗⌝
...and started me on my way into my next chapter in life...
⌞╚════════════ Extended Signature ════════════╝⌟
If DnDShorts is correct, and his insider info is right, than the plan was always to close down DnDB and all other similar sites. Since I tend to believe his report, and it seems likely to be true with everything that has come out. My Magic 8 ball says "Very Likely"
Very much disagree. I'm upset with the Leadership, ie the Chris Cocks. But The Staff, and Devs of WotC are like family, I'm very much on their side. I'm angry at one wallstreet exec who wants to milk D&D until it is dead. Just like all those nameless MMOs that we ditched for aggressive exploitative monetization.
This would be the same DnDShorts whose last piece of “insider information” turned out to be a months-old hoax? Real reliable source you have there.
Hasbro spent $143 million acquiring D&D Beyond. They have spent their last few quarterly reports to investors talking about what a great source of long-term revenue it would be. If your position is that Hasbro wants to throw away one of their biggest recent corporate expenditures and one of the major things they have been hyping to keep investor confidence (and therefore their stock prices) up, you’ll need a better source than someone who, just this week, exposed themselves as a hack.
Not just a revenue stream, but a data stream. What classes/subclasses/species do people play, actually play and not just theorycraft. Which monsters do DMs use more often. How often do campaigns get past level 12. Where, geographically are their players, what days of the week and times of day do they play. Probably a cookie or two giving them demographic data and other information about our other browser habits.
And we pay them for the privilege of giving them all this. This place is a gold mine sitting on top of a platinum mine.
Wasn't D&D Shorts the one who spread false information about D&D Beyond raising their subscription? And wasn't he the one who invented ridiculous hypothetical scenarios to explain how Wizards of the Coast will revoke your Open Game License permissions for jaywalking?
Yeah, this guy seems really trustworthy and not at all misleading. I'm sure all the tons of anonymous sources he has in Wizards are way more trustworthy than actual verified insiders.
No offense, but this guy has thrown his credibility out the window in the past couple of weeks. Please forgive me for my sarcasm. I'm just genuinely appalled that anyone would believe unverified rumors because D&D Shorts says they might be true.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.The number of people who uncritically swallow whatever a YouTube channel feeds them remains absolutely baffling to me
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Proffering you're really an active user under another screen name (which is possible, but, given your stated paranoia, is impossible to verify, so you've dug yourself into that hole) doesn't really lend credibility on the substance of my post's and many other posts' responding to your demonstrably ill-informed OP that clearly lacks an understanding of this forum's utility on DDB, or this forum's weight or lack thereof in the much broader conversation on the OGL. I can be and have been very critical of DDB's practices (some of my most popular posts was incredibly critical), and I've always been impressed with DDB's tolerance for having such criticism discussed in its own forum. For folks who feel they've been silenced, it's most often not what you say (though sure there are some folks who really don't know what's acceptable speech in polite conversation) but how you say it.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It’s important that we continue to call out WotC for these disgusting hits to our community. The more of a ruckus we cause, (especially on their own forums) the more likely we will be heard.
Boobs lol
Hi, this is a thread about whether WotC will delete these forums. What "disgusting hits" exist in this context other than the OP's poorly informed conjecture and free associative thinking? And please do read how much volume of the DDB user base these forums actually speak for, especially in comparison to DDB's own Discord, and do tell us how that weighs against the much broader D&D Discussion.
You want to know how D&D Beyond heard the community? Subscription drops. You want to know where the the subject of subscription drops got propagated and weaponized? Not here. Go look at the view count for the subscription dropping threads, recognizing those views aren't unique users. Compare that to the 10s of thousands who actually dropped DDB. They didn't come from here. You're free to pretend DDB forums are some fulcrum or bulwark in the War on WotC or the D&D Begone movement or whatever you want to pretend. But it is demonstrably not the case if you had a modicum of attention to how and where the influential discourse is happening as you do exhibit your passion.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Exactly. For what its worth I watched the D&D Shorts video, and I don't think even he would say at this point that D&D Beyond is doomed. 1) without a timeline opinion and whatnot could have changed internally regarding D&D Beyond. 2) if the guy who doesn't like it is also saying that people should pay more for the service, then his mind is not on closing it down. 3) D&D Beyond has 13 million+ accounts. While I'm sure a large number of those have never spent a dime, even if half of them have, that is an amazing online reach that currently doesn't exist for WotC in practically any other way.
I would like to see this all work out in favor of the player and WOTC with everyone happy.
Sometimes I think many on this forum would rather the entire situation turn into a dumpster fire... regardless of whether there could be a good outcome or not.
For what it's worth. IIRC, Hasbro acquired WOTC around start of 4th and pretty much had WOTC want to abandon (full-on abandon) 3.5/Paizo . The official forums were still around back then, but it was constant pointed out problems with 4th (again this is going off of memory and subject to error), there was threads GALORE about 3.5 and the main URL still worked on the 3.5e archives. You didn't even need to go to 'archive.xyz' instead 'www.wyz'. Forums were shutdown to help sell 4th which didn't help much. They hid behind the shield of 'you can go to other sites'. This was Youtube and twitter weren't as big. Heck, Myspace was still a thing.