I for one am extremely grateful that they got rid of them. I enjoy Humans and human like player characters, such as the Aasimar, Elf or even hafling. I have never cared for Dwarves, Gnomes, Half orcs and especially Half-Ogres. I'm scratching my head as to why they kept monsters, like Dragonborn, Tieflings and Orgres as player characters. Most likely because they scored well on the popularity list.
Aside from that I have always hated the term "race" when referring to these beings. Species is most appropriate as it is also has real world applications between humans and animals and between various animals.
But at the end of the day, I don't own the game so I don't make the rules, unless I want to House rule everything. In which case I might as well just create my own game.
For the most part I laud the changes Crawford's team has done by taking away the ability to min-max based on your species (although Humans get two origin Feats). I'm also satisfied at how they fixed or restructured the classes (eg Monk's Ki/Focus Points) and clamped down on abuse of mechanics (eg disallowing spell casting from Action Surge).
As I've said before, I think the way they could work in half-races as an option under the new paradigm is to work from the model we saw in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft: you write a few lineages for "somewhere in your ancestry there's a connection to the eternal powers; perhaps one of your ancestors was a dwarf or elf, or perhaps they dwelled for a time in the Feywild or near another font of ancient magics. Or perhaps something in your own experiences has caused your being to be infused with this power. Regardless, you can now expect to live far beyond your typical span, and have gained other traits reflecting the source of this power". Call them "the Timeless" for basically half-elves, "the Enduring" for half-dwarves, and "the Innocent" or something like that for part halflings (saying it the other way sounds weird) or half-gnomes and you've pretty well covered the core options in a way that makes it just one possible interpretation of how the character ended up like that, rather than only about genetics.
Again, I’m not talking about hybrid anything. I’m talking about a stand alone species option that is a magicalish human. Half-elf was that in the previous editions.
No, it really wasn't, there's never been anything particularly magical about half elves other than the fact that in AD&D you could multiclass fighter/wizard. Generally the way you achieved it in 3.0 and above was an origin feat of some sort -- they should probably have made something like fey touched a first level feat in 2024. Or they could add a feat such as "hybrid lineage: copy one feature from a different species" (I can't think of any named features that are too strong for a feat, though a number are too weak).
Again, I’m not talking about hybrid anything. I’m talking about a stand alone species option that is a magicalish human. Half-elf was that in the previous editions.
No, it really wasn't, there's never been anything particularly magical about half elves other than the fact that in AD&D you could multiclass fighter/wizard. Generally the way you achieved it in 3.0 and above was an origin feat of some sort -- they should probably have made something like fey touched a first level feat in 2024. Or they could add a feat such as "hybrid lineage: copy one feature from a different species" (I can't think of any named features that are too strong for a feat, though a number are too weak).
Extending the lifespan was significant from a characterization perspective, as was the lack of trance for DMs who made use of existing lore. They weren't actively magical, but they did actualize a good "between two worlds" vibe. You can get a fair bit of that via the mixed lineages model outlined in the UA using human traits, but having darkvision and to a lesser extent Fey Ancestry also helped them clearly stand apart from the other end of the spectrum. It's not a grievous loss, but for people who like to build roleplay around traits, you can't really get the same vibe on that front from any of the upcoming options.
I'll start by saying I am not someone who is a member of a group who generally experiences prejudice or racism, nor do I have what would be considered mixed heritage, so my opinion here is totally academic and not the result of lived experience, so I try to have humility about it.
That being said, from my perspective I think the big elephant in the room is that WOTC deciding that using the word "species" to describe what was previously "race" in order to avoid previous uncomfortable or racist implications is....bizarre. And it makes conversations around it turn people into pretzels when making analogies to real-world examples of mixed heritage while avoiding the horrifically racist implication that people of different real world racial background are different species. I will likely avoid the word entirely at my table and use something like lineage or ancestry.
I'll start by saying I am not someone who is a member of a group who generally experiences prejudice or racism, nor do I have what would be considered mixed heritage, so my opinion here is totally academic and not the result of lived experience, so I try to have humility about it.
That being said, from my perspective I think the big elephant in the room is that WOTC deciding that using the word "species" to describe what was previously "race" in order to avoid previous uncomfortable or racist implications is....bizarre. And it makes conversations around it turn people into pretzels when making analogies to real-world examples of mixed heritage while avoiding the horrifically racist implication that people of different real world racial background are different species. I will likely avoid the word entirely at my table and use something like lineage or ancestry.
Yeah I mentioned in the playtest that I have heard people use species as a way of saying other groups aren't human. And it seems based on this thread that it creates an issue because WotC wants to treat the species like real world races, but without the terminology.
Though I imagine the half elf is going to be the most used race option from 2014.
Yeah I mentioned in the playtest that I have heard people use species as a way of saying other groups aren't human. And it seems based on this thread that it creates an issue because WotC wants to treat the species like real world races, but without the terminology.
That's the exact opposite. Wizards wants people to treat species as not like real world races, and changed the name to encourage that view.
Yeah I mentioned in the playtest that I have heard people use species as a way of saying other groups aren't human. And it seems based on this thread that it creates an issue because WotC wants to treat the species like real world races, but without the terminology.
That's the exact opposite. Wizards wants people to treat species as not like real world races, and changed the name to encourage that view.
Based on the responses from mods in this thread that doesn't seem to be true.
Yeah I mentioned in the playtest that I have heard people use species as a way of saying other groups aren't human. And it seems based on this thread that it creates an issue because WotC wants to treat the species like real world races, but without the terminology.
That's the exact opposite. Wizards wants people to treat species as not like real world races, and changed the name to encourage that view.
^ This. "Species" is a scientific term that indicates a substantial genetic/physiological gap even if certain segments are reproductively compatible. "Race" is a social construct built around perceivable differences within the human species.
Yeah I mentioned in the playtest that I have heard people use species as a way of saying other groups aren't human. And it seems based on this thread that it creates an issue because WotC wants to treat the species like real world races, but without the terminology.
That's the exact opposite. Wizards wants people to treat species as not like real world races, and changed the name to encourage that view.
^ This. "Species" is a scientific term that indicates a substantial genetic/physiological gap even if certain segments are reproductively compatible. "Race" is a social construct built around perceivable differences within the human species.
More than that: the modern (like last few centuries) meaning of "race" is an entirely fictional concept used to justify some terrible things. It's more correct to say "ethnicity" for people, and enthnicity is supremely more complicated and nuanced that "race" ever was. In the game, the "species" are supposed to be much more distinct than ethnicities (despite the fact that "races" in DnD have commonly been based on real-world stereotypes of ethnicities and such).
~ The UA replaced these with a sidebar entry which lets you mix two species when it comes to appearance, but you have to pick which species you 'really are' (yes they seriously went there).~
I agree the wording they used is for us IRL, problematic at best. but also mega corp Hasbro at the wheel, did you really expect better?
I'd point out for a game system(you know be systematic) where we are going to mechanically quantify everything that relates to in game actions/dice odds. This new system of no more uniquely quantified half species stats, is a very game mechanics rational design choice.
If the goal is to allow all species to have half anything in the Thirst Role Play. Then to make a unique stat block for every possible race combo of all available races, would not be reasonable to do.
As well the wording gets wonksy for half halfling dawrf and so on. SO we have no more printed quantified stat blocks for half anything. Simply pick any stat block you want that thre is. Then flavor your visual description however you want mixing and matching however you see fit between the two parent races you picked.
Like you can give yourself the stats for an Orc, and just look exactly like a halfling if you want to.
I think it is mechanically an elegant solution to wanting a game system that has unique species PC stats, but did not actually worry that visual flavor needed to bog down anything, if it is just the players personal flair rather than quantified game systems.
No need to mechanically emulate/simulate all minute, sweep a few things under the suspension of disbelief rug for smoother sailing.
~ The UA replaced these with a sidebar entry which lets you mix two species when it comes to appearance, but you have to pick which species you 'really are' (yes they seriously went there).~
I agree the wording they used is for us IRL, problematic at best. but also mega corp Hasbro at the wheel, did you really expect better?
I'd point out for a game system(you know be systematic) where we are going to mechanically quantify everything that relates to in game actions/dice odds. This new system of no more uniquely quantified half species stats, is a very game mechanics rational design choice.
If the goal is to allow all species to have half anything in the Thirst Role Play. Then to make a unique stat block for every possible race combo of all available races, would not be reasonable to do.
As well the wording gets wonksy for half halfling dawrf and so on. SO we have no more printed quantified stat blocks for half anything. Simply pick any stat block you want that thre is. Then flavor your visual description however you want mixing and matching however you see fit between the two parent races you picked.
Like you can give yourself the stats for an Orc, and just look exactly like a halfling if you want to.
I think it is mechanically an elegant solution to wanting a game system that has unique species PC stats, but did not actually worry that visual flavor needed to bog down anything, if it is just the players personal flair rather than quantified game systems.
No need to mechanically emulate/simulate all minute, sweep a few things under the suspension of disbelief rug for smoother sailing.
I wonder how many DMs would allow it. Like an entire party that looks human but has bugbear stats
I wonder how many DMs would allow it. Like an entire party that looks human but has bugbear stats
I'm a DM, and my group has built their characters using UA rules on this, specifically our tiefling has assamar traits. Since we are now nearing the end of the Avernus campaign no way am I going to change his character now. I'm disappointed it's not in the PHB, and I really hope this is in the DMG, because it's a great way to make hybrid characters.
I'm a DM, and my group has built their characters using UA rules on this, specifically our tiefling has assamar traits. Since we are now nearing the end of the Avernus campaign no way am I going to change his character now. I'm disappointed it's not in the PHB, and I really hope this is in the DMG, because it's a great way to make hybrid characters.
I would expect some sort of species creation rules in the DMG, but the rules from UA were probably overly limited to be worth putting in the DMG, it's basically an assertion "You can make cosmetic alterations to a species".
I'm a DM, and my group has built their characters using UA rules on this, specifically our tiefling has assamar traits. Since we are now nearing the end of the Avernus campaign no way am I going to change his character now. I'm disappointed it's not in the PHB, and I really hope this is in the DMG, because it's a great way to make hybrid characters.
I would expect some sort of species creation rules in the DMG, but the rules from UA were probably overly limited to be worth putting in the DMG, it's basically an assertion "You can make cosmetic alterations to a species".
The UA is still available to download. It was in the first UA:
CHILDREN OF DIFFERENT HUMANOID KINDS Thanks to the magical workings of the multiverse, Humanoids of different kinds sometimes have children together. For example, folk who have a human parent and an orc or an elf parent are particularly common. Many other combinations are possible. If you’d like to play the child of such a wondrous pairing, choose two Race options that are Humanoid to represent your parents. Then determine which of those Race options provides your game traits: Size, Speed, and special traits. You can then mix and match visual characteristics—color, ear shape, and the like—of the two options. For example, if your character has a halfling and a gnome parent, you might choose Halfling for your game traits and then decide that your character has the pointed ears that are characteristic of a gnome. Finally, determine the average of the two options’ Life Span traits to figure out how long your character might live. For example, a child of a halfling and a gnome has an average life span of 288 years.
I'm not sure how well I can convey thoughts on this but I'm gonna try my best.
I can understand the reasoning behind the change, both mechanically because half elves had all the benefits and no drawbacks and also to simplify things, but it feels like an invalidation. Like the entire point of my sorcerer's arc was overcoming the stigma of being a half elf and was openly racist to elves because of how his mother's people treated him. The shit dealt with in the game had helped me through IRL stuff I was going through and seeing this change feels insulting if that makes sense.
I'm not sure how well I can convey thoughts on this but I'm gonna try my best.
I can understand the reasoning behind the change, both mechanically because half elves had all the benefits and no drawbacks and also to simplify things, but it feels like an invalidation. Like the entire point of my sorcerer's arc was overcoming the stigma of being a half elf and was openly racist to elves because of how his mother's people treated him. The shit dealt with in the game had helped me through IRL stuff I was going through and seeing this change feels insulting if that makes sense.
Half-elves have none of the cool things from Elves. (Okay so I think trance is probably the only cool thing from elves.)
Half elves get advantage on charmed spells, can't be put to sleep by magic, two skill proficiencies and darkvision (which at this point 90% of the races have anyway). You are better off just picking human or elf.
But half Elves are still really cool. I'll probably end up looking at the Tales of the Valiant book for half elf stats and see how they compare to 2014.
I for one am extremely grateful that they got rid of them. I enjoy Humans and human like player characters, such as the Aasimar, Elf or even hafling. I have never cared for Dwarves, Gnomes, Half orcs and especially Half-Ogres. I'm scratching my head as to why they kept monsters, like Dragonborn, Tieflings and Orgres as player characters. Most likely because they scored well on the popularity list.
Aside from that I have always hated the term "race" when referring to these beings. Species is most appropriate as it is also has real world applications between humans and animals and between various animals.
But at the end of the day, I don't own the game so I don't make the rules, unless I want to House rule everything. In which case I might as well just create my own game.
For the most part I laud the changes Crawford's team has done by taking away the ability to min-max based on your species (although Humans get two origin Feats). I'm also satisfied at how they fixed or restructured the classes (eg Monk's Ki/Focus Points) and clamped down on abuse of mechanics (eg disallowing spell casting from Action Surge).
As I've said before, I think the way they could work in half-races as an option under the new paradigm is to work from the model we saw in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft: you write a few lineages for "somewhere in your ancestry there's a connection to the eternal powers; perhaps one of your ancestors was a dwarf or elf, or perhaps they dwelled for a time in the Feywild or near another font of ancient magics. Or perhaps something in your own experiences has caused your being to be infused with this power. Regardless, you can now expect to live far beyond your typical span, and have gained other traits reflecting the source of this power". Call them "the Timeless" for basically half-elves, "the Enduring" for half-dwarves, and "the Innocent" or something like that for part halflings (saying it the other way sounds weird) or half-gnomes and you've pretty well covered the core options in a way that makes it just one possible interpretation of how the character ended up like that, rather than only about genetics.
No, it really wasn't, there's never been anything particularly magical about half elves other than the fact that in AD&D you could multiclass fighter/wizard. Generally the way you achieved it in 3.0 and above was an origin feat of some sort -- they should probably have made something like fey touched a first level feat in 2024. Or they could add a feat such as "hybrid lineage: copy one feature from a different species" (I can't think of any named features that are too strong for a feat, though a number are too weak).
Extending the lifespan was significant from a characterization perspective, as was the lack of trance for DMs who made use of existing lore. They weren't actively magical, but they did actualize a good "between two worlds" vibe. You can get a fair bit of that via the mixed lineages model outlined in the UA using human traits, but having darkvision and to a lesser extent Fey Ancestry also helped them clearly stand apart from the other end of the spectrum. It's not a grievous loss, but for people who like to build roleplay around traits, you can't really get the same vibe on that front from any of the upcoming options.
I'll start by saying I am not someone who is a member of a group who generally experiences prejudice or racism, nor do I have what would be considered mixed heritage, so my opinion here is totally academic and not the result of lived experience, so I try to have humility about it.
That being said, from my perspective I think the big elephant in the room is that WOTC deciding that using the word "species" to describe what was previously "race" in order to avoid previous uncomfortable or racist implications is....bizarre. And it makes conversations around it turn people into pretzels when making analogies to real-world examples of mixed heritage while avoiding the horrifically racist implication that people of different real world racial background are different species. I will likely avoid the word entirely at my table and use something like lineage or ancestry.
Yeah I mentioned in the playtest that I have heard people use species as a way of saying other groups aren't human. And it seems based on this thread that it creates an issue because WotC wants to treat the species like real world races, but without the terminology.
Though I imagine the half elf is going to be the most used race option from 2014.
That's the exact opposite. Wizards wants people to treat species as not like real world races, and changed the name to encourage that view.
Based on the responses from mods in this thread that doesn't seem to be true.
^ This. "Species" is a scientific term that indicates a substantial genetic/physiological gap even if certain segments are reproductively compatible. "Race" is a social construct built around perceivable differences within the human species.
More than that: the modern (like last few centuries) meaning of "race" is an entirely fictional concept used to justify some terrible things. It's more correct to say "ethnicity" for people, and enthnicity is supremely more complicated and nuanced that "race" ever was. In the game, the "species" are supposed to be much more distinct than ethnicities (despite the fact that "races" in DnD have commonly been based on real-world stereotypes of ethnicities and such).
I agree the wording they used is for us IRL, problematic at best. but also mega corp Hasbro at the wheel, did you really expect better?
I'd point out for a game system(you know be systematic) where we are going to mechanically quantify everything that relates to in game actions/dice odds. This new system of no more uniquely quantified half species stats, is a very game mechanics rational design choice.
If the goal is to allow all species to have half anything in the Thirst Role Play. Then to make a unique stat block for every possible race combo of all available races, would not be reasonable to do.
As well the wording gets wonksy for half halfling dawrf and so on. SO we have no more printed quantified stat blocks for half anything. Simply pick any stat block you want that thre is. Then flavor your visual description however you want mixing and matching however you see fit between the two parent races you picked.
Like you can give yourself the stats for an Orc, and just look exactly like a halfling if you want to.
I think it is mechanically an elegant solution to wanting a game system that has unique species PC stats, but did not actually worry that visual flavor needed to bog down anything, if it is just the players personal flair rather than quantified game systems.
No need to mechanically emulate/simulate all minute, sweep a few things under the suspension of disbelief rug for smoother sailing.
I wonder how many DMs would allow it. Like an entire party that looks human but has bugbear stats
I'm a DM, and my group has built their characters using UA rules on this, specifically our tiefling has assamar traits. Since we are now nearing the end of the Avernus campaign no way am I going to change his character now. I'm disappointed it's not in the PHB, and I really hope this is in the DMG, because it's a great way to make hybrid characters.
Image is what he is using for Roll20 token.
I would expect some sort of species creation rules in the DMG, but the rules from UA were probably overly limited to be worth putting in the DMG, it's basically an assertion "You can make cosmetic alterations to a species".
I'm confused. So is there ANY guidelines to using a mixed heritage or is it all homebrew now? 🤔
Use the 2014 rules for Half-Elf, Half-Orc, or Custom Lineages from Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything
The UA is still available to download. It was in the first UA:
I'm not sure how well I can convey thoughts on this but I'm gonna try my best.
I can understand the reasoning behind the change, both mechanically because half elves had all the benefits and no drawbacks and also to simplify things, but it feels like an invalidation. Like the entire point of my sorcerer's arc was overcoming the stigma of being a half elf and was openly racist to elves because of how his mother's people treated him. The shit dealt with in the game had helped me through IRL stuff I was going through and seeing this change feels insulting if that makes sense.
Half-elves have none of the cool things from Elves. (Okay so I think trance is probably the only cool thing from elves.)
Half elves get advantage on charmed spells, can't be put to sleep by magic, two skill proficiencies and darkvision (which at this point 90% of the races have anyway). You are better off just picking human or elf.
But half Elves are still really cool. I'll probably end up looking at the Tales of the Valiant book for half elf stats and see how they compare to 2014.
We are playing in worlds where most of the time races are not living together. It is just silly to think that people in this setting were not racist.
Hell most worlds we have played in have had elves and dwarves not liking each other. There is nothing wrong with it.
Let's be 100% honest people. Are Orcs somehow a peaceful race that do not eat other humanoid creatures? Half Orcs are tolerated.
It's like saying Mindflayers shouldn't be hated. They are just misunderstood.
I hope WotC do not ruin this game with social constructs. It's a fantasy game. Roleplaying racism might just fix racism in real life.