Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
Sign in- Marketplace
Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
Sign in
Hi there!
I must be honest with you: I've never heard of the Dark Sun setting, but when I saw it announced at Gen Con, it really fascinated me.
I've been reading a little bit about it, but there are certain things I'm struggling to get, like the ambience of the setting. Is it like a Mad Max world? Is it similar to Dune? I've seen spaceships, is it like Star Wars? Warhammer 40k?
Another of my questions is: what makes this setting so controversial? Many people are saying that WotC are not going to depict the world correctly due to how violent it is.
I really wanna know more about this setting, but I don't know what books I should start reading. What can you tell me about Dark Sun? How does its world work?
Thanks in advance!
"
The best way I could describe Dark Sun would be as follows: Dark Sun is to Mad Max/post apocalyptic fiction and fantasy what Eberron is to Steampunk/Magepunk. It's a setting where the world is dying and survival is your only concern. Magic corrupts the world through every spell and invocation, evil reigns supreme, and life is harsh at best and cruel at worst. That's the sparknotes version
As for the controversial, well the setting has in prior publications swung for it's grim-dark apocalyptic vibes generally through edge shock value. Stuff like:
It's this last one I personally prefer to focus on because it embodies the issue many (myself included) have with the setting. I'm going nip the inevitable, tired strawman in the bud—having slavery within a setting is not inherently problematic. Having racism or discrimination or oppression is not inherently problematic. The following observation is not some assinine appeal to remove all possible bad things from a setting so everyone is living happily in a peaceful utopia. Slavery and other similar themes can exist in a narrative in a way that is not only not problematic, but adds narrative value. It needs to be handled with sensitivity to your players, but it can be done.
However, that's not how Dark Sun has previously done it. What Dark Sun does is present slavery as justifiable. It does this in various ways:
Dark Sun books have previously asserting directly or indirectly that it can be justified to own other people as property for various "reasons". Now I would hope that I wouldn't have to say this, but as you might have guessed by my strawman pre-empting above, this isn't my first rodeo on the subject so I know I sadly do have to say this. Slavery is never justifiable. Owning another person as property is never anything other than evil. There is no circumstance ever where it is morally acceptable to treat another person as a possession. If anyone reading this wants to argue that point, just save yourself the trouble. I will report any attempt of slavery apologia, just don't do it.
That is the problem with Dark Sun. It is not an unfixable problem—all the books have to do is at the very least not present slavery as a "necessary evil" (there is no such thing). Don't provide mechanics for owning people. Don't present anyone that does own people as anything other than evil. Don't discourage PCs from liberating slaves. That's all.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
You gave me a pretty solid picture of the setting. Thank you very much for your time, I do appreciate it.
It sounds quite interesting, and I understand the polemic around this setting. It is brutal, savage and vile, but that shouldn't mean it should portray slavery as a good thing.
I have a few questions:
Are there any "good" factions in this world that try to heal it or save it somehow? Or is it a huge "battle royal" where everybody just tries to survive?
Are there any other worlds appart from Athas?
Where can I read more about this setting? Are there any books?
Thanks again for your answer!
"
Off the top of my head, I think there is a good faction, at least one, in the form of the Preservers. In very simple terms, there's no more ambient magic in Dark Sun and no divine magic. As such, to cast spells you have to draw on life force (that's what's killing the world). People who draw on the life force of those around them are called defilers—they kill the soil and plants, wither those nearby. But the inverse exists—those who put magic back into the world to preserve life.
There are lots of books, you can probably find a solid list on the Dark Sun Wiki or Wikipedia
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Thank you! The more I know the more interested I am.
"
There is the Veiled Alliance, a network that help preservers and thwart defilers which exists to protect preservers from all enemies: sorcerer-kings, templars, defilers, the general citizenry, and even the dragon.
One other important point about the setting - Magic is fairly limited in scope and distribution, while latent psionic power that can be honed in psionic classes is universal among all of the plane. Psionics often fill the role of the arcane. Magical ability is something hoarded by folks like the sorcerer-kings, and, as addressed above, is often evil coded.
This creates two points of tension, the first a lore one and the second an expected mechanics one.
For lore, mental manipulation is filled with red flags - psionics inherently interfere and overwrite the idea of consent, which can become incredibly problematic if not handled well. Moreover, even if it is handled well by the source book, psionic options have historically been abused by creepy players. While this does not mean the game should not produce mental magic or psions, it does mean that Dark Sun introduces a lot of tools for folks who might be weirdly comfortable ignoring consent in their games.
For mechanics, it is expected there will be controversy and backlash to the upcoming psionic class. Through playtesting, it looks like Wizards is going to use the same mechanics as Spellcasters to represent the 5e psion class. Explicitly in Dark Sun, but in other settings as well, psionics are independent from and follow different rules than magic. There has already been a fair bit of pushback on plans to use the spellcasting system (instead of an ability point system like the old Mystic playtests, other psionic subclasses, or historical use in D&D. It is very likely there will be a lot of backlash should the current plan implemented in the game.
Personally, I agree with the backlash to making psionics a spellcasting class - but the game already has optional rules for using spell points instead of spell slots, so I think some of the controversy is overblown. While I do not like allowing spell points for magic casters for numerous reasons, if someone wanted to play a psionic with a different vibe than spell casters, this would be the easy and already existing solution. Hopefully D&D Beyond might support spell points at a future date when it updates its character sheet (which currently lacks the tech to do this).
Good Lard, where to start on this.
Ok, Taboo subjects that feature prominently in the setting.
Slavery.
Eugenics.
Mass experimentation on unwilling people.
Cannibalism.
Social divides based on birth status.
Atheism. ( which was Taboo at the time. Not so much now.)
The sheer level of Gleeful brutality of the setting.
While most of these aren't treated as good things, and are in fact presented as being rather bad, their handling was sometimes sensationalist and a little tawdry, though that is stylistically in sync with its inspirations like the Conan Novels by Robert E Howard, the Zothique cycle stories of Clark Ashton Smith, Mad max, and other such works, it did rub some people the wrong way.
There is an explicitly Environmentalist message about the misuse of knowledge, it was rather buried in the moment to moment experience of the setting which played more like a playground of brutality unless the DM took steps to make the environmental message more clear.
Also there is the aspect of it being a radical departure from the high fantasy settings of Greyhawk and Forgotten realms.
It is not beyond saving, but even as an edgy pre-teen who did read Conan novels, the 1992 release box was a little 'yikes dude.'
As to why people wanted it back for so long, including me, it had a lot of potential and it was different enough to be a breath of fresh air. Plus that was when Psionics really took off as a mechanic front and center.
It is also a perfect setting for a campaign about organizing to stomp out Tyrannical environment destroying despot. Which i feel like a lot of people would want these days.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
So those who use magic in this world are accelerating its dead and are, therefore, evil? Or does it depend on the kind of magic you use?
The dragons of Dark Sun work like Forgotten Realms dragons? (Chromatic bad, metallic good).
Thank you very much for answering! ❤️
"
The thing about psionic powers and consent is pretty nasty. I will never allow that at my table and I'll be pretty clear on this matter in my Season 0. Thanks for advicing me!
I have one question about the Psionic class: would it be compatible with other settings (Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Greyhawk...).?
And using magic in this game makes you become evil?
Thanks for your time and your interesting answer about setting. I'm learning a lot!
"
Very interesting. I do appreciate your post. It added a lot of information about this new setting. Thank you! 😊
My questions are:
Can Athas be saved from its destruction?
How advanced Athas' society is, technologically speaking?
"
Psionics are no worse than all the existing Enchantment themed subclasses and spells that exist in 5e.
Let me preface this response with a clear assertion that this is not apologism, just analyzing the setting and narrative elements that come from it.
In a grimdark setting, using the plot point that trying to do what should be the immediate right thing will go awry because of the larger systemic issues and thus sometimes the “good” people who don’t have the protections and advantages of being a PC/MC are the ones who take the lesser evil is a legitimate point for exploring the nature of a fictional setting. When executed properly, the point is that whatever social class a freed slave would end up in is so lacking in protections that by comparison being the property of another might be safer because that person will have the ability to pursue a redress of damages where some random independent serf can’t expect anyone in authority to care, assuming their attacker doesn’t have the legal right to behave as such on a whim and that the fantastic elements of the setting don’t preclude successful escapes. Thus a responsible slave-owner might be classified as “good” because they’re using the options available under the system to provide what protection they can for their workers. Obviously the better option would be to change the system, but evil sorcerer-kings tend to object to that sort of thing by at least disintegrating the ringleaders, if not adding some new craters/ruins to the landscape.
Obviously, this is an extremely messed up system, but that’s rather the point of the true grimdark genre- it’s not a case of “just blow up the super weapon and everyone celebrates as freedom suddenly happens”, it’s deep societal stuff. It’s like in the Witcher games where you save some random person being accosted, a fight ensues, and when the dust settles they chew Geralt/the player out because while he can just move on, they’re left to either answer to some gang boss, military officer, noble, etc. or flee with just the clothes on their back.
Which is one reason why I didn’t think they’d try and write official content for the setting- if you want to paint a properly bleak post-apocalyptic picture then you need elements like the above to illustrate that basic good/heroic actions are going to face massive opposition from the setting-wide systemic cancers that make it grimdark, otherwise you’re getting the Disney version of “sure, the world’s been blasted back to the early if not pre Bronze Age, but it still plays about the same as Forgotten Realms or Eberron”- which is another legitimate choice and honestly seems like it’d have been a safer bet if they just made it a new setting. While they can probably still get away with using the Dark Sun name on something like this from everyone not invested in the old iteration buying it for the new content, it just seems like it’d be unnecessarily inviting drama from the people who’d raise a stink that it’s not the “real” Dark Sun, while the people who aren’t interested because of the legacy setting name would be just as interested if they called it something else.
So, to summarize- it is a legitimate narrative beat for a work of fiction in a wholly fictional setting to explore that doing a small scale heroic act will backlash because there’s massive systemic issues in the setting that work against it. However, this understandably can create an uncomfortable experience for people because it’s a very gross and unpleasant plot point, and is the sort of thing some people will try to spin into a real-life context where it absolutely does not and should not obtain. Which is why I’m surprised by and skeptical of the move to reintroduce Dark Sun- it’s a fine needle to thread if they want to commit to the classic grimdark theme that can alienate people who reasonably don’t want to be told something like freeing a slave was the wrong thing- or at least that it ended badly, and if they’re removing those elements why not just go for an entirely fresh canvas rather than try and work around all the edgy 90’s baggage?
Yeah, especially given that they’ll just be using the same spells as everyone else this time around.
I think it can be saved from destruction, though I might be in the minority for this opinion.
Arthas has not advanced technologically; it regressed from what I remember. Lots of weapons made from bone, stone, and bronze in you are lucky. I think steel was rare and usually left over from kingdoms from before the ecological collapse.
There is little plant life for fuel, so even bronze weapons were rare. I am also trying to remember stuff from the mid 90s which was the last time I played in a Darksun game so i might be a little off on some things.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
I’d imagine the Psion would be fine in other settings since the Psi Warrior fighter and soul knife rogue are in the 2024 PHB, but if you want an “official” ruling I’d wait for an update from the Adventure League
(Answering The Ace of Rogues' post).
What an interesting reflection. I totally see your point. It's a dark world and its society has been vilely twisted. The situations that stem from that kind of world are difficult to swallow for us, using our moral glasses. It would be interesting to morally test players, wouldn't it? Of course, in my opinion, not tollerating sadic behaviour that could make other players uncomfortable.
You made me reflect with your post. Thank you very much for your interesting perspective!
I'm honestly becoming more and more excited about this setting due to your fantastic answers. Thank you!
"
Just like you can use Artificer in other settings if the DM allows, same with psionics. Notably, other settings do specifically touch on psionics already - there’s a couple existing psionic subclasses, some species have psionic abilities, etc.
I also am not sure it is accurate to say magic makes you become evil, but it is very evil coded in the setting. Results will differ depending on your table and how the DM runs it.
I want to just clarify, I fully agree enchantment spells can be very problematic - there is a reason I framed my post in terms of mental manipulation, not purely psionics. That said, there are particular reasons to be careful of paionics. First, there usually is not a tell (even the UA is removing a lot of verbal and somatic components from spells), so players are able to mechanically “get away with it” easier as a psionic. Second, when it is the entire class identity, as opposed to just a smaller part of a bigger class (even if you choose enchantment subclass, you’re still base Wizard), there is more of a “but I am just playing my class as intended” vibe. Particularly true in the context of this setting, which encourages darker play.
So, while I fully agree existing enchantment Magic is very prone to be abused in gross ways, I think there is a slightly higher concern with psionics that (a) reflects some of the controversy of the setting and (b) provides some slight additional mechanical protections for gross behavior that a DM should at least be thinking of.
Oh, I see. I was confused, because some of the Dark Sun artwork they showed at Gen Con had spaceships and stuff.
By the way, do you know why the sun looks like a donut?
Thank you again!
"
That’s true, and I found it to be a point against the Psion class UA that they could readily cast a near undetectable Charm Person, potentially with a buff to DC.