Dark Sun: an interesting and polemic setting

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

To reach your conclusion, you have to fabricate facts not presently in evidence ("corporate meddled and forced the setting") 

Actually, that would be an example of a "fabricated fact not presented in evidence", since I did no such thing

I get that you're way more invested in seeing Dark Sun succeed than I am and will spin its release accordingly, but i would expect better than this kind of nonsense from someone with your background

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

You further admitted one data point that is more opinion based, but still a very likely conclusion - that Dark Sun is "not a safe bet."  In fact, you said it would be "hilarious" to consider it a "safe bet", which sort of undermines the conclusion that corporate might want to gamble the expense of time and development on it (particularly since they have to spend extra money for things like shrink wrapping the content and intentionally cutting out potential audiences by marketing it to 18+). 

What I actually said, since you seem so committed to facts and all, is that WOTC wanted to push existing IP as a general policy, and that Dark Sun did well in fan surveys so it went forward. Not that Dark Sun specifically was what WOTC wanted. I think we can all come up with examples of decisions being made at the corporate level that perhaps were not fully thought through

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

I also want to leave this topic with one final conclusion - your entire conspiracy is incredibly insulting to the developers of this game.

Now you're painting me as an enemy of the developers. Classy. Which developers, though -- the ones around in 2017 when you claim work on this started? Or the ones hired since, with what you yourself have said are resumes that would be better suited to tackling this kind of project? And who hired that second group, again?

All this because I dared to offer an opinion that didn't wholeheartedly embrace this release as a great idea. You can keep spinning yourself in circles about this if you want, but I'm tuning you out from here

Quote from AntonSirius >>

 

 

Honestly, the impression I'm getting is that there was a corporate directive to use old IP, Dark Sun scored highly on various surveys so it got greenlit, and the creative team is doing their best to actually make it work somehow

 

The simple fact remains that, in the quote above, (a) you painted this as a "corporate directive" being the primary impetus and (b) that the creatives are in a position where they are not "doing their best" not "doing what they wanted to do."

The pure and plain diction of your post took the agency for the decision away from the actual creators and pushed it onto corporate.  That is both not supported by fact - as already clearly established, the facts show this seems to be a creative-driven decision - and is extremely dismissive of the game designers by framing them as victims through use of diction that places them in a passive and not enthusiastic role. 

Maybe that is not what you intended to say, but it is what you wrote. 

I want to also be clear on this, since it relates back to the fundamental concept of the thread, and why I think the origins of the setting's return should be clear.   While I do not care overly much for Dark Sun - I do care very much for having a development team that gets to work on projects they are excited about, and it does seem like there is plenty of evidence this team is excited about projects like Dark Sun.  A development team that is excited tends to make better content, and we all benefit from that.  Especially in a setting like Dark Sun, where the creators really need to feel the setting and understand both its pros and cons, I think it is particularly problematic to be dismissive - intentionally or not - of what the developers actually want to do.

I'm uncertain, but I don't think the word polemic is really meant to be used in that fashion (as in describing a setting as polemic).

That is, unless you're implying that the setting itself is, somehow, a strongly worded argument or stands in direct opposition to some other setting?

Maybe "controversial" or "polarizing"?

*shrug*

I read for a living these days, so sometimes stuff jumps out at me :)

Quote from Jimberish >>

I'm uncertain, but I don't think the word polemic is really meant to be used in that fashion (as in describing a setting as polemic).

That is, unless you're implying that the setting itself is, somehow, a strongly worded argument or stands in direct opposition to some other setting?

Maybe "controversial" or "polarizing"?

*shrug*

I read for a living these days, so sometimes stuff jumps out at me :)

 

 I thought the same and did some googling. Polemic can be a noun or an adjective, meaning either a strongly worded oppositional argument or provoking strong or passionate arguments

Quote from Davyd >>

Quote from Jimberish >>

I'm uncertain, but I don't think the word polemic is really meant to be used in that fashion (as in describing a setting as polemic).

That is, unless you're implying that the setting itself is, somehow, a strongly worded argument or stands in direct opposition to some other setting?

Maybe "controversial" or "polarizing"?

*shrug*

I read for a living these days, so sometimes stuff jumps out at me :)

 

 I thought the same and did some googling. Polemic can be a noun or an adjective, meaning either a strongly worded oppositional argument or provoking strong or passionate arguments

 I assumed they meant “Problematic” and it was a typo 

Quote from Jimberish >>

I'm uncertain, but I don't think the word polemic is really meant to be used in that fashion (as in describing a setting as polemic).

That is, unless you're implying that the setting itself is, somehow, a strongly worded argument or stands in direct opposition to some other setting?

Maybe "controversial" or "polarizing"?

*shrug*

I read for a living these days, so sometimes stuff jumps out at me :)

 

I'm not a native English speaker (as you've definitely noticed). In my two native languages (Spanish and French), and in the other two languages that I speak (Portuguese and Italian), it would be correct to use that word with that meaning (that is, something that stirs up controversy).

Thanks for taking your time to point that out. I love to be corrected, since it helps me to improve my language skills. 😊

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Honestly, the impression I'm getting is that there was a corporate directive to use old IP, Dark Sun scored highly on various surveys so it got greenlit, and the creative team is doing their best to actually make it work somehow

While I believe that a survey was done and it scored highly, I doubt it was a valid survey.   People had such a bad taste, they dropped DND completely.  Dollars to doughnuts all of those people that dropped where not involved in the survey.  Maybe now as people are starting to filter back in as their  kids are getting into  it, a survey will have vastly different results.

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from Jimberish >>

I'm uncertain, but I don't think the word polemic is really meant to be used in that fashion (as in describing a setting as polemic).

That is, unless you're implying that the setting itself is, somehow, a strongly worded argument or stands in direct opposition to some other setting?

Maybe "controversial" or "polarizing"?

*shrug*

I read for a living these days, so sometimes stuff jumps out at me :)

 

 

I'm not a native English speaker (as you've definitely noticed). In my two native languages (Spanish and French), and in the other two languages that I speak (Portuguese and Italian), it would be correct to use that word with that meaning (that is, something that stirs up controversy).

Thanks for taking your time to point that out. I love to be corrected, since it helps me to improve my language skills. 😊

Yeah, in English 'polemic' is a noun not an adjective, and it's generally used for something of a political nature that's designed to provoke a strong reaction. especially a reaction against something. A speech or work of art could be described as a polemic, for example

I just figured you were going for 'problematic'

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from Jimberish >>

I'm uncertain, but I don't think the word polemic is really meant to be used in that fashion (as in describing a setting as polemic).

That is, unless you're implying that the setting itself is, somehow, a strongly worded argument or stands in direct opposition to some other setting?

Maybe "controversial" or "polarizing"?

*shrug*

I read for a living these days, so sometimes stuff jumps out at me :)

 

 

I'm not a native English speaker (as you've definitely noticed). In my two native languages (Spanish and French), and in the other two languages that I speak (Portuguese and Italian), it would be correct to use that word with that meaning (that is, something that stirs up controversy).

Thanks for taking your time to point that out. I love to be corrected, since it helps me to improve my language skills. 😊

 

Yeah, in English 'polemic' is a noun not an adjective, and it's generally used for something of a political nature that's designed to provoke a strong reaction. especially a reaction against something. A speech or work of art could be described as a polemic, for example

I just figured you were going for 'problematic'

Yeah, we have that use in the Romance Languages too. 😊

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from Jimberish >>

I'm uncertain, but I don't think the word polemic is really meant to be used in that fashion (as in describing a setting as polemic).

That is, unless you're implying that the setting itself is, somehow, a strongly worded argument or stands in direct opposition to some other setting?

Maybe "controversial" or "polarizing"?

*shrug*

I read for a living these days, so sometimes stuff jumps out at me :)

 

 

I'm not a native English speaker (as you've definitely noticed). In my two native languages (Spanish and French), and in the other two languages that I speak (Portuguese and Italian), it would be correct to use that word with that meaning (that is, something that stirs up controversy).

Thanks for taking your time to point that out. I love to be corrected, since it helps me to improve my language skills. 😊

 Honestly no I hadn’t noticed you weren’t a native speaker, I’ve seen plenty of people who are native speakers on here with much less command of the language. For it to one of five you speak is impressive 

Quote from CunningSmile >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from Jimberish >>

I'm uncertain, but I don't think the word polemic is really meant to be used in that fashion (as in describing a setting as polemic).

That is, unless you're implying that the setting itself is, somehow, a strongly worded argument or stands in direct opposition to some other setting?

Maybe "controversial" or "polarizing"?

*shrug*

I read for a living these days, so sometimes stuff jumps out at me :)

 

 

I'm not a native English speaker (as you've definitely noticed). In my two native languages (Spanish and French), and in the other two languages that I speak (Portuguese and Italian), it would be correct to use that word with that meaning (that is, something that stirs up controversy).

Thanks for taking your time to point that out. I love to be corrected, since it helps me to improve my language skills. 😊

 Honestly no I hadn’t noticed you weren’t a native speaker, I’ve seen plenty of people who are native speakers on here with much less command of the language. For it to one of five you speak is impressive 

I do appreciate your words. ❤️

Although, I'm pretty sure I make a lot of mistakes. 🙈

Thanks again for what you said. ❤️❤️

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from Jimberish >>

I'm uncertain, but I don't think the word polemic is really meant to be used in that fashion (as in describing a setting as polemic).

That is, unless you're implying that the setting itself is, somehow, a strongly worded argument or stands in direct opposition to some other setting?

Maybe "controversial" or "polarizing"?

*shrug*

I read for a living these days, so sometimes stuff jumps out at me :)

 

 

I'm not a native English speaker (as you've definitely noticed). In my two native languages (Spanish and French), and in the other two languages that I speak (Portuguese and Italian), it would be correct to use that word with that meaning (that is, something that stirs up controversy).

Thanks for taking your time to point that out. I love to be corrected, since it helps me to improve my language skills. 😊

 

Yeah, in English 'polemic' is a noun not an adjective, and it's generally used for something of a political nature that's designed to provoke a strong reaction. especially a reaction against something. A speech or work of art could be described as a polemic, for example

I just figured you were going for 'problematic'

 Polemic can be an adjective, albeit an uncommon form. The more common form is polemical

Quote from Davyd >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from Jimberish >>

 Polemic can be an adjective, albeit an uncommon form. The more common form is polemical

 
The polemics of the polemic term

Quote from Davyd >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from Jimberish >>

I'm uncertain, but I don't think the word polemic is really meant to be used in that fashion (as in describing a setting as polemic).

That is, unless you're implying that the setting itself is, somehow, a strongly worded argument or stands in direct opposition to some other setting?

Maybe "controversial" or "polarizing"?

*shrug*

I read for a living these days, so sometimes stuff jumps out at me :)

 

 

I'm not a native English speaker (as you've definitely noticed). In my two native languages (Spanish and French), and in the other two languages that I speak (Portuguese and Italian), it would be correct to use that word with that meaning (that is, something that stirs up controversy).

Thanks for taking your time to point that out. I love to be corrected, since it helps me to improve my language skills. 😊

 

Yeah, in English 'polemic' is a noun not an adjective, and it's generally used for something of a political nature that's designed to provoke a strong reaction. especially a reaction against something. A speech or work of art could be described as a polemic, for example

I just figured you were going for 'problematic'

 Polemic can be an adjective, albeit an uncommon form. The more common form is polemical

So would it be correct to say: "Dark Sun: an interesting and polemical setting"?

🤔

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >> 

So, is the issue that they need to include a “this is a work of fiction featuring X, Y, and Z for dramatic purposes” disclaimer- as I repeatedly did in my analysis, I will point out?

I'd say it needs to go beyond just a milquetoast "this is fiction!" everything-proof-shield disclaimer. As Davyd pointed out, previous iterations of Dark Sun have included both themes and mechanics that reward in the best case indifference, and in the worst case participation, in the more brutal aspects of the setting. Like, we don't need mechanics tied to branding sapients for Dark Sun to function, so just leave that up to the DM (with the appropriate safety tools for their specific table) instead.

As for the Psionics bit - I don't have a problem with 5.5e Psions using spell slots. There are comparatively very few true Psions on Athas in the grand scheme of things anyway, just like there are very few true Sorcerers or Wizards. My concern is with the wider populace; just about everything on Athas has some degree of psionic ability, including all the martials. The best way to represent that is some kind of Wild Talent bonus feat, which is totally fine, so long as the range of what a wild talent lets you do is calibrated appropriately. (The easiest approach is to let it grant a cantrip and a 1/day 1st-level power/psionic spell, but for me the devil is in the details.)

Quote from PsyrenXY >>

 As for the Psionics bit - I don't have a problem with 5.5e Psions using spell slots. There are comparatively very few true Psions on Athas in the grand scheme of things anyway, just like there are very few true Sorcerers or Wizards. My concern is with the wider populace; just about everything on Athas has some degree of psionic ability, including all the martials. The best way to represent that is some kind of Wild Talent bonus feat, which is totally fine, so long as the range of what a wild talent lets you do is calibrated appropriately. (The easiest approach is to let it grant a cantrip and a 1/day 1st-level power/psionic spell, but for me the devil is in the details.)

 In case you didn't know, Wild Talent feats were playtested in the Psion's first UA, and they work almost exactly like the way you suggested (they're feats made to be available as early as level 1, and consist of a thematic ability and some combination of 1 cantrip, 1 level 1 spell, and 1 level 2 spell). I'm fairly confident they're going to appear in Dark Sun: Blood and Power.

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein>>

So would it be correct to say: "Dark Sun: an interesting and polemical setting"?

🤔

Even then, the implication of calling it 'polemical' would be that it was created to provoke a response, or deliver a specific argument. Polemics also are focused exclusively on conveying one message

Trying to think of some good examples... Martin Luther's theses nailed to the door of the church would be 'polemical'. Picasso's Guernica. Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal. That sort of thing

Just containing some elements that are edgy/polarizing/politically charged wouldn't really qualify

Quote from Davyd >>

Polemic can be an adjective, albeit an uncommon form. The more common form is polemical

It might be dictionary correct, but I genuinely can't recall ever seeing 'polemic' used as an adjective out in the wild

Quote from RecordiconKnok >>

 In case you didn't know, Wild Talent feats were playtested in the Psion's first UA, and they work almost exactly like the way you suggested (they're feats made to be available as early as level 1, and consist of a thematic ability and some combination of 1 cantrip, 1 level 1 spell, and 1 level 2 spell). I'm fairly confident they're going to appear in Dark Sun: Blood and Power.

 I am aware of those; the thing I meant was currently missing are rules for every (or almost every) PC and NPC on Athas to have one - and for PCs, without giving up their Origin feat. I expect for the Athas PCs it'll be as easy as a bonus WT feat (hopefully with the option to swap it for Tough or Skilled for those rare folks who want to try being a psionic muggle on Athas), but for monsters not in the book the DM will likely want at least a bit of guidance.

One of the updates MIGHT be that not everyone has Wild Talent