i was looking at the 6th level Otto’s irresistible dance, and it seems like a horrible spell. Basically, you use your 6th level spell slot to make something not move and have advantage on attack roles. However, it doesn’t say that the creature can’t attack. Oh yeah, they also get a wisdom save every round. So, why not just use a 1st level spell slot to cast Tasha’s hideous laughter, which does everything that Otto’s irresistible dance does, except they can’t attack. What am I missing besides watching a dragon dance.
Otto's requires the target to use an action to get a save, while Tasha's gets a save each round, plus an additional save each time they get hit. Otto's doesn't allow movement, while Tasha's does (although at half speed, since they're prone and therefore need to crawl). Otto's can affect creatures of 4 INT or less, Tasha's can't. But yeah, Otto's definitely doesn't sound very good, given it's a 6th level spell.
The main thing that Otto's Irresistible Dance has going for it is that there is no saving throw against the initial effect - as a minimum, it forces the target to use it's next action to try to make a save.
The target is affected by the spell: there is no save. They remain stuck there. And if they want to move they have to use an action to attempt a save. They can still attack, but that means they are not saving against the spell and you can just keep out of their reach. They also get disadvantage on all attacks and Dexterity saving throws. So, a nice fireball to their face is a great complement to the spell. Furthermore all attacks against them have advantage.
So for combat uses your melee-allies are kept a bit safer from the target, while they get extra chances to hit (and crit). The target is locked in place until they save. Attempts to save means they lose their action - controlling the enemy's side of the action economy is amazing.
If you have another spellcaster they can use spells like Cloud of Daggers to shred the enemy while they're stuck in the space. Even a melee ally could have access to a cantrip like Create Bonfire to just add that extra hurt while the target is stuck there.
Combine with a Level 5 or higher Bestow Curse to give disadvantage to their Wisdom saves to really lock them down because this spell at 5th level or higher : doesn't require concentration so you can easily combine it.
For out of combat uses it's awesome at stopping a target you are chasing or running from. It's also funny making that super big bad evil hydra dance, dance, baby.
I was observing a game at my friendly neighborhood game store where the GM House Ruled that every 3 consecutive rounds of dancing caused a fatigue level. So the murder hobos playing the game killed some poor NPC schmuck by dancing him to death.
To add to what other people are saying in favor of the spell:
It's quite flavorful for bards (Your face-melting lute solo is so incredible that even Acererak is compelled to dance along!), and works with the level 10 Split Enchantment feature that Enchantment Wizards (who seem like the type you'd want this spell for) get, meaning the Bard looks totally natural casting this, and the Wizard is making fools out of 2 of the enemies at once (for at least 1 round). For a 6th level spell, Otto's Irresistible Dance may not be the most powerful thing ever, but it's not weak in the way that spells like Circle of Death are. Ugh, Circle of Death.
To add to what other people are saying in favor of the spell:
It's quite flavorful for bards (Your face-melting lute solo is so incredible that even Acererak is compelled to dance along!), and works with the level 10 Split Enchantment feature that Enchantment Wizards (who seem like the type you'd want this spell for) get, meaning the Bard looks totally natural casting this, and the Wizard is making fools out of 2 of the enemies at once (for at least 1 round). For a 6th level spell, Otto's Irresistible Dance may not be the most powerful thing ever, but it's not weak in the way that spells like Circle of Death are. Ugh, Circle of Death.
What's so bad about Circle of Death? It looks like a great way of clearing out lots of weaker enemies.
To add to what other people are saying in favor of the spell:
It's quite flavorful for bards (Your face-melting lute solo is so incredible that even Acererak is compelled to dance along!), and works with the level 10 Split Enchantment feature that Enchantment Wizards (who seem like the type you'd want this spell for) get, meaning the Bard looks totally natural casting this, and the Wizard is making fools out of 2 of the enemies at once (for at least 1 round). For a 6th level spell, Otto's Irresistible Dance may not be the most powerful thing ever, but it's not weak in the way that spells like Circle of Death are. Ugh, Circle of Death.
What's so bad about Circle of Death? It looks like a great way of clearing out lots of weaker enemies.
The radius can make it cumbersome to use safely and the damage is equal to a 3rd level Fireball - you're essentially paying an extra 3 levels just to increase the radius which makes the spell harder to use. While necrotic damage is less resisted than fire damage a Con save is more likely saved against than Dexterity especially for the CR of monsters you will start facing by the time you get 6th level spells and there's no Elemental Adept feat for bypassing resistance. It's nice and thematic but using an upcast Fireball with Elemental Adept is immensely superior in just about every way.
I guess it could be an improvement in some cases, like if you're facing a very large number of lower-CR enemies, large enough that a Fireball won't get 'em all, but maybe a Circle of Death will?
To add to what other people are saying in favor of the spell:
It's quite flavorful for bards (Your face-melting lute solo is so incredible that even Acererak is compelled to dance along!), and works with the level 10 Split Enchantment feature that Enchantment Wizards (who seem like the type you'd want this spell for) get, meaning the Bard looks totally natural casting this, and the Wizard is making fools out of 2 of the enemies at once (for at least 1 round). For a 6th level spell, Otto's Irresistible Dance may not be the most powerful thing ever, but it's not weak in the way that spells like Circle of Death are. Ugh, Circle of Death.
What's so bad about Circle of Death? It looks like a great way of clearing out lots of weaker enemies.
The radius can make it cumbersome to use safely and the damage is equal to a 3rd level Fireball - you're essentially paying an extra 3 levels just to increase the radius which makes the spell harder to use. While necrotic damage is less resisted than fire damage a Con save is more likely saved against than Dexterity especially for the CR of monsters you will start facing by the time you get 6th level spells and there's no Elemental Adept feat for bypassing resistance. It's nice and thematic but using an upcast Fireball with Elemental Adept is immensely superior in just about every way.
I guess it could be an improvement in some cases, like if you're facing a very large number of lower-CR enemies, large enough that a Fireball won't get 'em all, but maybe a Circle of Death will?
Not consumed, though. And at that point, 500gp shouldn't be too much of a problem.
It's not just 500gp, it's 500gp spent on what would be hard to locate even if you did have that kind of money, and 500gp that could be going to much more worthwhile things for your character. That combined with the fact that you are using your 6th level spell slot to do an average of 28 damage makes me not too convinced that it's that useful.
Of course, if you are playing a Necromancer Wizard, it's a little better.
But the problem isn't really that Circle of Death is a bad spell for what it does (though it's not great), the problem is that other spells would seem to do it better. Sure, if you cast your Fireball in a 6th level slot you won't have the same radius, but you'll be doing 11d6 damage instead of 8d6. Your Sunbeam would be doing 6d8 radiant damage on every turn for a minute.
That's 28 damage per creature, though. So in those (probably very few and far between) cases where you can take advantage of its huge area and hit a whole bunch of targets, it can significantly outdamage Fireball. That still really only makes it worthwhile as a Spell Scroll, since it's a waste of a prepared/known spell, given that in the vast majority of situations Fireball would be better. Except, as you point out, on a Necromancer, due to Grim Harvest. Although to be honest, I've been severely underwhelmed by Grim Harvest. It either heals me when I'm relatively (or entirely) unhurt (at the beginning of combat, or later on if I've positioned myself well and avoided getting hit), or heals me for insignificant amounts, if at all (later in combat, when I'm hurt, but have already spent my higher level slots). Or, infrequently, near the end, when I still have higher level slots, and I manage to get the kill-shot on the big bad guy... but that's the end of combat anyway, so I can just rest up anyway (I guess in those cases it saves me from using up Hit Dice to heal). I'm considering talking with the DM to see if we can switch it to temporary hit points instead of healing, which seems thematically appropriate, maybe even more so (False Lifeis a Necromancy spell, after all!).
Circle of Death does have its uses, even if I'll probably never like it.
But I do agree that Grim Harvest is underwhelming. Even temporary hitpoints would only seem like a slight improvement, because you have to get the killshot (often hard to do for a caster except against mooks).
I wonder if something like this would be too powerful or not enough:
Grim Harvest
At 2nd level, you gain the ability to reap life energy from creatures with your spells. Once per turn when a creature fails its saving throw against a spell you cast of 1st level or higher belonging to the School of Necromancy, you gain temporary hitpoints equal to 2 times the spell's level, plus your Intelligence modifier.
This is probably a topic for another thread, but it seems like this would be a decent buff to the feature and give a Necromancer more incentive to cast spells like Cause Fear or Eyebite. Actually, this might be a bit too good...
Personally I would just use sleep which, as they are prone, gives you advantage on any attack role you take against them. However you only get one try. If you have a rouge then... sneak attaack
Personally I would just use sleep which, as they are prone, gives you advantage on any attack role you take against them. However you only get one try. If you have a rouge then... sneak attaack
Ottos give advantage on attacks which gives sneak attack also so kinda a moot point
Also Ottos just works Sleep has a lot of stipulations and quickly loses effectiveness at higher levels
Otto is a good "oh crap button" if you're up against something with Leg Resistances. Since they don't make a save when you cast it, they're dancing no matter what until their turn. Something big and bad up in your ally's face? Otto and help your ally out a fair amount.
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i was looking at the 6th level Otto’s irresistible dance, and it seems like a horrible spell. Basically, you use your 6th level spell slot to make something not move and have advantage on attack roles. However, it doesn’t say that the creature can’t attack. Oh yeah, they also get a wisdom save every round. So, why not just use a 1st level spell slot to cast Tasha’s hideous laughter, which does everything that Otto’s irresistible dance does, except they can’t attack. What am I missing besides watching a dragon dance.
Otto's requires the target to use an action to get a save, while Tasha's gets a save each round, plus an additional save each time they get hit. Otto's doesn't allow movement, while Tasha's does (although at half speed, since they're prone and therefore need to crawl). Otto's can affect creatures of 4 INT or less, Tasha's can't. But yeah, Otto's definitely doesn't sound very good, given it's a 6th level spell.
The main thing that Otto's Irresistible Dance has going for it is that there is no saving throw against the initial effect - as a minimum, it forces the target to use it's next action to try to make a save.
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The target is affected by the spell: there is no save. They remain stuck there. And if they want to move they have to use an action to attempt a save. They can still attack, but that means they are not saving against the spell and you can just keep out of their reach. They also get disadvantage on all attacks and Dexterity saving throws. So, a nice fireball to their face is a great complement to the spell. Furthermore all attacks against them have advantage.
So for combat uses your melee-allies are kept a bit safer from the target, while they get extra chances to hit (and crit). The target is locked in place until they save. Attempts to save means they lose their action - controlling the enemy's side of the action economy is amazing.
If you have another spellcaster they can use spells like Cloud of Daggers to shred the enemy while they're stuck in the space. Even a melee ally could have access to a cantrip like Create Bonfire to just add that extra hurt while the target is stuck there.
Combine with a Level 5 or higher Bestow Curse to give disadvantage to their Wisdom saves to really lock them down because this spell at 5th level or higher : doesn't require concentration so you can easily combine it.
For out of combat uses it's awesome at stopping a target you are chasing or running from. It's also funny making that super big bad evil hydra dance, dance, baby.
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I was observing a game at my friendly neighborhood game store where the GM House Ruled that every 3 consecutive rounds of dancing caused a fatigue level. So the murder hobos playing the game killed some poor NPC schmuck by dancing him to death.
To add to what other people are saying in favor of the spell:
It's quite flavorful for bards (Your face-melting lute solo is so incredible that even Acererak is compelled to dance along!), and works with the level 10 Split Enchantment feature that Enchantment Wizards (who seem like the type you'd want this spell for) get, meaning the Bard looks totally natural casting this, and the Wizard is making fools out of 2 of the enemies at once (for at least 1 round). For a 6th level spell, Otto's Irresistible Dance may not be the most powerful thing ever, but it's not weak in the way that spells like Circle of Death are. Ugh, Circle of Death.
And that's all I have to say about that.
What's so bad about Circle of Death? It looks like a great way of clearing out lots of weaker enemies.
The radius can make it cumbersome to use safely and the damage is equal to a 3rd level Fireball - you're essentially paying an extra 3 levels just to increase the radius which makes the spell harder to use. While necrotic damage is less resisted than fire damage a Con save is more likely saved against than Dexterity especially for the CR of monsters you will start facing by the time you get 6th level spells and there's no Elemental Adept feat for bypassing resistance. It's nice and thematic but using an upcast Fireball with Elemental Adept is immensely superior in just about every way.
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I guess it could be an improvement in some cases, like if you're facing a very large number of lower-CR enemies, large enough that a Fireball won't get 'em all, but maybe a Circle of Death will?
That's makes sense, I was unaware that it had the same damage as fire ball.
Don't forget the material component, which must consist of a single 500gp-worth black pearl crushed into powder.
And that's all I have to say about that.
Not consumed, though. And at that point, 500gp shouldn't be too much of a problem.
It's not just 500gp, it's 500gp spent on what would be hard to locate even if you did have that kind of money, and 500gp that could be going to much more worthwhile things for your character. That combined with the fact that you are using your 6th level spell slot to do an average of 28 damage makes me not too convinced that it's that useful.
Of course, if you are playing a Necromancer Wizard, it's a little better.
But the problem isn't really that Circle of Death is a bad spell for what it does (though it's not great), the problem is that other spells would seem to do it better. Sure, if you cast your Fireball in a 6th level slot you won't have the same radius, but you'll be doing 11d6 damage instead of 8d6. Your Sunbeam would be doing 6d8 radiant damage on every turn for a minute.
And that's all I have to say about that.
That's 28 damage per creature, though. So in those (probably very few and far between) cases where you can take advantage of its huge area and hit a whole bunch of targets, it can significantly outdamage Fireball. That still really only makes it worthwhile as a Spell Scroll, since it's a waste of a prepared/known spell, given that in the vast majority of situations Fireball would be better. Except, as you point out, on a Necromancer, due to Grim Harvest. Although to be honest, I've been severely underwhelmed by Grim Harvest. It either heals me when I'm relatively (or entirely) unhurt (at the beginning of combat, or later on if I've positioned myself well and avoided getting hit), or heals me for insignificant amounts, if at all (later in combat, when I'm hurt, but have already spent my higher level slots). Or, infrequently, near the end, when I still have higher level slots, and I manage to get the kill-shot on the big bad guy... but that's the end of combat anyway, so I can just rest up anyway (I guess in those cases it saves me from using up Hit Dice to heal). I'm considering talking with the DM to see if we can switch it to temporary hit points instead of healing, which seems thematically appropriate, maybe even more so (False Life is a Necromancy spell, after all!).
Circle of Death does have its uses, even if I'll probably never like it.
But I do agree that Grim Harvest is underwhelming. Even temporary hitpoints would only seem like a slight improvement, because you have to get the killshot (often hard to do for a caster except against mooks).
I wonder if something like this would be too powerful or not enough:
Grim Harvest
At 2nd level, you gain the ability to reap life energy from creatures with your spells. Once per turn when a creature fails its saving throw against a spell you cast of 1st level or higher belonging to the School of Necromancy, you gain temporary hitpoints equal to 2 times the spell's level, plus your Intelligence modifier.
This is probably a topic for another thread, but it seems like this would be a decent buff to the feature and give a Necromancer more incentive to cast spells like Cause Fear or Eyebite. Actually, this might be a bit too good...
And that's all I have to say about that.
Definitely a topic for another thread... this started out as Otto's Irresistible Dance vs Tasha's Hideous Laughter, hah!
Personally I would just use sleep which, as they are prone, gives you advantage on any attack role you take against them. However you only get one try. If you have a rouge then... sneak attaack
Ottos give advantage on attacks which gives sneak attack also so kinda a moot point
Also Ottos just works Sleep has a lot of stipulations and quickly loses effectiveness at higher levels
Otto is a good "oh crap button" if you're up against something with Leg Resistances. Since they don't make a save when you cast it, they're dancing no matter what until their turn. Something big and bad up in your ally's face? Otto and help your ally out a fair amount.