Edit: amidst all the talk about how it could be improved, RobF actually answered my question about RAW: Absorb elements damage is limited to a melee attack, which pretty much puts the nail in this as a ranged nova. Thanks for the feedback!
The TLDR is that this build could deal out something like 160 to 200 damage in a single round.
I was playing around with character types and came a cross a combo that seemed like a pretty devastating sneak attack build. It started with reading DotMM. It seems like nearly half the creatures in it use darkvision most of the time. So it occurred to me: Hey, the Ranger Gloomstalker's Umbral Sight makes you invisible to dark vision. I wonder how effective a surprise attacking assassinating ranger I could build?
Then I was looking at the ranger spells and got to thinking about Absorb Elements. The thing with absorb elements is you can deal much more damage than you absorb.
It occurred to me that you could have a character carrying around some small, concealable fire source. So let's say it was a covered brazier with a single lit coal that you could put your hand into to burn yourself. Designed so it did minimum damage, say 1d4. Sure it might give you away with smell and you would need a concentration check on staying hidden or a spell like hunter's mark. I think it also wouldn't be unreasonable to have a custom magic item made to serve the same purpose. The point is that you could use the damage to trigger Absorb elements.
From there it snowballed. Here are the basics of the build at level 20. It is a little MAD, sure but I'm taking that as a given, and you don'e need more than the minimum 13 Cha score to qualify for being a Bard. The rest is wisdom and Dex. Look at the end to see the assumptions about circumstances:
Bugbear - "Once per combat, if you surprise a creature and hit it with an attack on your first turn in combat, the attack deals an extra 2d6 damage to it."
Rogue- Assasin- lvl 10 - 5d6 sneak attack damage + Assasin feature- You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
Bard - College of whispers- level 5- 3d6 psychic blades. Also provides a level 4 spell slot to use for Absorb elements. Also Jack of All trades gives half proficiency to initiative.
Ranger - Gloom Stalker - level 5- Extra attack. Umbral sight to make for the extra sneaky and make the surprise more likely. Dread Ambusher: You can give yourself a bonus to your initiative rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier. If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action. If that attack hits, the target takes an extra 1d8 damage of the weapon’s damage type.
Feats: 3 ASI's to help with the MADness or to take Resilient (Con). One for sharpshooter to get the +10 to ranged damage, one for alert to get the +5 to initiative.
So let's assume that this bugbear sneaks up with
Assumes: Stealth was succeseful. That he is able to first cast Hunter's Mark unseen, then damage himself with something like a small brazier with a piece of coal to trigger Absorb elements or a custom magic item. Assumes succeseful hits to trigger auto crit from assasination. Assumes they are first in initiative, but with Alert +5, Dread ambusher (+Wis modifier), a max Dex bonus, and half proficiency you are looking at a total initiative modifier of at least 15, so going first in initiative is not an unreasonable assumption. If possible this character would work hard to acquire a magical weapon "of warning" to gain advantage on initiative. The damage necessary to activate the Hunter's mark does trigger a DC 10 concentration check, but hunter's mark is very little of the total damage. Here we go:
1st attack- the1st column is the damage as a normal strike. The 3rd column shows the damage from a crit. Keeping in mind that any hit by an assassin with surprise before the target's turn is a crit. And the attacker has advantage on each roll. Even if 2 of the attacks miss, the first hit is a doozy.
Hunter's Mark
1d6
2d6
7
Necrotic
Psychic blades
3d6
6d6
21
Psychic
Sneak attack
5d6
10d6
35
Piercing
Absorb elements
4d6
8d6
28
Fire( or other elemental)
Bugbear sneak
2d6
4d6
14
Piercing
Longbow
1d8+5
2d8+5
14
piercing
Sharpshooter
10
10
10
Piercing
Total
15d6+1d8+15
30d6+2d8+15
129
And that's just attack 1 of 3!
Attack 2
2nd attack
Longbow
1d8+5
2d8+5
14
piercing
Hunter's mark
1d6
2d6
7
Necrotic
Sharpshooter
10
10
10
Piercing
Total
1d8+1d6+15
2d6+2d8+15
31
Attack 3 (from the Gloom Stalker's Dread Ambusher)
And to this any half-decent Paladin build will laugh at how cute it is, then go one-turn-kill a dragon like it was a nothing.
Seriously, with a few right conditions a decent Paladin build can do over 400+ damage in one turn.
This is part of why I hate Paladins. For burst damage nothing comes close. Combine with their other abilities and being able to get high saves against everything even without proficiency or spells or items they're the "mary-sue" class.
If you ever think "maybe this is too strong" ask yourself if the build you're making includes Paladin levels. If it does not then it's fine.
And to this any half-decent Paladin build will laugh at how cute it is, then go one-turn-kill a dragon like it was a nothing.
Seriously, with a few right conditions a decent Paladin build can do over 400+ damage in one turn.
How? Even four critical max level smites with Improved Divine Smite don't come close to that damage.
This is part of why I hate Paladins. For burst damage nothing comes close. Combine with their other abilities and being able to get high saves against everything even without proficiency or spells or items they're the "mary-sue" class.
Eh. Paladins have practically nothing in terms of mobility and ranged power. Monks are also good at all saves, Evasion, way better movement, and they're the only class in the game that can reliably stun enemies (and do so dozens of times a day.) 3-5 other party members ganging up on a stunned monster is going to beat out a Paladin's nova.
Yeah Cyber, I am not saying my build is the top by any stretch, but I think that if you are dealing out 400 then you have somewhere missed something. If f you want to walk it through or send a link to where someone has, I will gladly look.
The numbers I used are not IF it crits on every role. The crit is auto if there is a hit. And the numbers are not maxed, those are averages. Could be higher or lower.
My main question is whether I was missing a rule or limotation. Not because I didn't believe it, or thought it broken. Just to test my understanding of the rules of the game.
I can improve your nova by taking out 5 levels bard and 5 levels ranger and put in 5 levels paladin (any) and 5 levels sorcerer (shadow). 4th level slots used on smites deal 5d8 damage (much more than 3d6 psychic blades), and smite can be used on each attack. Paladin still gives extra attack. Shadow sorcerer's eyes of darkness give you the darkness spell and ability to see in it effectively replacing umbral sight, and still has absorb elements if you want to go that route. And you can quicken green flame blade or booming blade for another melee attack and smite as bonus action. You lose the hunter's mark and initiative bonuses, but gaining 3 smites (easily 19d8 damage) and only needing CHA and DEX is more upside.
a few things when looking at it. I assume you are attacking with the longbow, to make use of the sharpshooter ability?
Absorb elements only effects melee attacks, not ranged ones - "the first time you hit with a melee attack on your next turn, the target takes an extra 1d6 damage"
Hunters mark: takes a bonus action to cast and would need to do this first. would this break stealth? would it ruin the surprise attack? I would say that casting the spell first would possibly take away the surprise of the attack action, and then remove the auto crit aspect of Assassin. This would also possibly stop the bugbear surprise ability as well.
Also, once the first attack has happened, it is definitely no longer surprised, so any subsequent attacks from the extra attacks would not be auto crit.
Edit: Thanks DxJxc, I forgot how the surprise condition worked.
a few things when looking at it. I assume you are attacking with the longbow, to make use of the sharpshooter ability?
Absorb elements only effects melee attacks, not ranged ones - "the first time you hit with a melee attack on your next turn, the target takes an extra 1d6 damage"
Hunters mark: takes a bonus action to cast and would need to do this first. would this break stealth? would it ruin the surprise attack? I would say that casting the spell first would possibly take away the surprise of the attack action, and then remove the auto crit aspect of Assassin. This would also possibly stop the bugbear surprise ability as well.
Also, once the first attack has happened, it is definitely no longer surprised, so any subsequent attacks from the extra attacks would not be auto crit.
A creature that is surprised remains surprised until the end of its first turn (in which it cannot move or take actions, effectively skiping it). So a creature can still be surprised by a creature it can see, and is still surprised after being attacked (as long as it has not taken a turn).
But you're right. Smites will eat up 3 spell slots. That's why I prefer paladin 2/sorcerer 18 splits, smites for days, 9th level spells, armor and weapons, some healing. But no guaranteed crit or sneak attack.
Per RAW, the surprised condition is very difficult to achieve:
The target has not not be aware of danger. Not just of YOU, but of your party as well. Perception vs. Stealth from all your party. If one member of your party doesn't even try to stealth, Surprise is not possible.
No offensive effects or damage can occur outside of initiative order. So if you go in for an attack, you have to roll initiative. If the target beats your initiative roll, his turn passes (he can't do anything) BUT, he is no longer surprised.
And then, if you do manage to launch a surprise attack:
You have to roll an attack, and beat the AC, or it's all pointless.
Your damage rolls have to not suck for it to actually be better than a typical attack with good damage.
Yeah, that was part of the point of this build. With the Umbral sight, this build is invisible in darkness, which makes surprise MUCH more likely, particularly with a dungeon like DotMM. This build really works as a stealthy scout, who can strike, demolish a high risk target and then fade back to the party. This build also had numerous advantages for getting bonuses to initiative, totalling up to 15 or more depending on stats. The Assasin strike gets advantage on attacks if they get initiative, so with 3 chances to hit, all with advantage, and all auto criting if they hit, it would work pretty well. Even a single hit would do some pretty impressive damage.
Unfortunately, there is a pretty clear RAW issue that someone caught: that Absorb elements is limited to melee, which is the limitation on divine smite I was trying to work around. I am looking for another spell that might give a similar bonus of multiple dice at 4th level as a bonus to a ranged attack.
yeah, someone caught that and it pretty much killed the point of this build. I have been trying to find an alternative spell that will fit the bill, but I think the developers built things this way on purpose so you can't make this kind of ranged nova.
18 levels wizard and 2 levels fighter can cast 2 high level disintegrates for 37d6+80 damage (assuming you can impose disadvantage or force a fail on saves), 209.5 average damage.
At 17th level, you gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can spend 3 ki points to start these imperceptible vibrations, which last for a number of days equal to your monk level. The vibrations are harmless unless you use your action to end them. To do so, you and the target must be on the same plane of existence. When you use this action, the creature must make a Constitution saving throw. If it fails, it is reduced to 0 hit points. If it succeeds, it takes 10d10 necrotic damage.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Sorry, but no they can't. Look at the rules about castng multiple spells per turn. Only if the other spell is a cantrip bonus action. Disintegrate definitely doesn't qualify.
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Hey!
Edit: amidst all the talk about how it could be improved, RobF actually answered my question about RAW: Absorb elements damage is limited to a melee attack, which pretty much puts the nail in this as a ranged nova. Thanks for the feedback!
The TLDR is that this build could deal out something like 160 to 200 damage in a single round.
I was playing around with character types and came a cross a combo that seemed like a pretty devastating sneak attack build. It started with reading DotMM. It seems like nearly half the creatures in it use darkvision most of the time. So it occurred to me: Hey, the Ranger Gloomstalker's Umbral Sight makes you invisible to dark vision. I wonder how effective a surprise attacking assassinating ranger I could build?
Then I was looking at the ranger spells and got to thinking about Absorb Elements. The thing with absorb elements is you can deal much more damage than you absorb.
It occurred to me that you could have a character carrying around some small, concealable fire source. So let's say it was a covered brazier with a single lit coal that you could put your hand into to burn yourself. Designed so it did minimum damage, say 1d4. Sure it might give you away with smell and you would need a concentration check on staying hidden or a spell like hunter's mark. I think it also wouldn't be unreasonable to have a custom magic item made to serve the same purpose. The point is that you could use the damage to trigger Absorb elements.
From there it snowballed. Here are the basics of the build at level 20. It is a little MAD, sure but I'm taking that as a given, and you don'e need more than the minimum 13 Cha score to qualify for being a Bard. The rest is wisdom and Dex. Look at the end to see the assumptions about circumstances:
Bugbear - "Once per combat, if you surprise a creature and hit it with an attack on your first turn in combat, the attack deals an extra 2d6 damage to it."
Rogue- Assasin- lvl 10 - 5d6 sneak attack damage + Assasin feature- You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
Bard - College of whispers- level 5- 3d6 psychic blades. Also provides a level 4 spell slot to use for Absorb elements. Also Jack of All trades gives half proficiency to initiative.
Ranger - Gloom Stalker - level 5- Extra attack. Umbral sight to make for the extra sneaky and make the surprise more likely. Dread Ambusher: You can give yourself a bonus to your initiative rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier. If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action. If that attack hits, the target takes an extra 1d8 damage of the weapon’s damage type.
Feats: 3 ASI's to help with the MADness or to take Resilient (Con). One for sharpshooter to get the +10 to ranged damage, one for alert to get the +5 to initiative.
So let's assume that this bugbear sneaks up with
Assumes: Stealth was succeseful. That he is able to first cast Hunter's Mark unseen, then damage himself with something like a small brazier with a piece of coal to trigger Absorb elements or a custom magic item. Assumes succeseful hits to trigger auto crit from assasination. Assumes they are first in initiative, but with Alert +5, Dread ambusher (+Wis modifier), a max Dex bonus, and half proficiency you are looking at a total initiative modifier of at least 15, so going first in initiative is not an unreasonable assumption. If possible this character would work hard to acquire a magical weapon "of warning" to gain advantage on initiative. The damage necessary to activate the Hunter's mark does trigger a DC 10 concentration check, but hunter's mark is very little of the total damage. Here we go:
1st attack- the1st column is the damage as a normal strike. The 3rd column shows the damage from a crit. Keeping in mind that any hit by an assassin with surprise before the target's turn is a crit. And the attacker has advantage on each roll. Even if 2 of the attacks miss, the first hit is a doozy.
And that's just attack 1 of 3!
Attack 2
Attack 3 (from the Gloom Stalker's Dread Ambusher)
And to this any half-decent Paladin build will laugh at how cute it is, then go one-turn-kill a dragon like it was a nothing.
Seriously, with a few right conditions a decent Paladin build can do over 400+ damage in one turn.
This is part of why I hate Paladins. For burst damage nothing comes close. Combine with their other abilities and being able to get high saves against everything even without proficiency or spells or items they're the "mary-sue" class.
If you ever think "maybe this is too strong" ask yourself if the build you're making includes Paladin levels. If it does not then it's fine.
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How? Even four critical max level smites with Improved Divine Smite don't come close to that damage.
Eh. Paladins have practically nothing in terms of mobility and ranged power. Monks are also good at all saves, Evasion, way better movement, and they're the only class in the game that can reliably stun enemies (and do so dozens of times a day.) 3-5 other party members ganging up on a stunned monster is going to beat out a Paladin's nova.
Yeah Cyber, I am not saying my build is the top by any stretch, but I think that if you are dealing out 400 then you have somewhere missed something. If f you want to walk it through or send a link to where someone has, I will gladly look.
The numbers I used are not IF it crits on every role. The crit is auto if there is a hit. And the numbers are not maxed, those are averages. Could be higher or lower.
My main question is whether I was missing a rule or limotation. Not because I didn't believe it, or thought it broken. Just to test my understanding of the rules of the game.
I can improve your nova by taking out 5 levels bard and 5 levels ranger and put in 5 levels paladin (any) and 5 levels sorcerer (shadow). 4th level slots used on smites deal 5d8 damage (much more than 3d6 psychic blades), and smite can be used on each attack. Paladin still gives extra attack. Shadow sorcerer's eyes of darkness give you the darkness spell and ability to see in it effectively replacing umbral sight, and still has absorb elements if you want to go that route. And you can quicken green flame blade or booming blade for another melee attack and smite as bonus action. You lose the hunter's mark and initiative bonuses, but gaining 3 smites (easily 19d8 damage) and only needing CHA and DEX is more upside.
a few things when looking at it. I assume you are attacking with the longbow, to make use of the sharpshooter ability?
Absorb elements only effects melee attacks, not ranged ones - "the first time you hit with a melee attack on your next turn, the target takes an extra 1d6 damage"
Hunters mark: takes a bonus action to cast and would need to do this first. would this break stealth? would it ruin the surprise attack? I would say that casting the spell first would possibly take away the surprise of the attack action, and then remove the auto crit aspect of Assassin. This would also possibly stop the bugbear surprise ability as well.Also, once the first attack has happened, it is definitely no longer surprised, so any subsequent attacks from the extra attacks would not be auto crit.Edit: Thanks DxJxc, I forgot how the surprise condition worked.
A creature that is surprised remains surprised until the end of its first turn (in which it cannot move or take actions, effectively skiping it). So a creature can still be surprised by a creature it can see, and is still surprised after being attacked (as long as it has not taken a turn).
I knew I was missing something. I thought I checked absorb elements, but there it is melee attack. Ah well .
Smite does more damage anyway.
But smite is not ranged. Also this uses less spell slots and could have been done more often.
*neither is absorb elements.
But you're right. Smites will eat up 3 spell slots. That's why I prefer paladin 2/sorcerer 18 splits, smites for days, 9th level spells, armor and weapons, some healing. But no guaranteed crit or sneak attack.
Per RAW, the surprised condition is very difficult to achieve:
And then, if you do manage to launch a surprise attack:
Yeah, that was part of the point of this build. With the Umbral sight, this build is invisible in darkness, which makes surprise MUCH more likely, particularly with a dungeon like DotMM. This build really works as a stealthy scout, who can strike, demolish a high risk target and then fade back to the party. This build also had numerous advantages for getting bonuses to initiative, totalling up to 15 or more depending on stats. The Assasin strike gets advantage on attacks if they get initiative, so with 3 chances to hit, all with advantage, and all auto criting if they hit, it would work pretty well. Even a single hit would do some pretty impressive damage.
Unfortunately, there is a pretty clear RAW issue that someone caught: that Absorb elements is limited to melee, which is the limitation on divine smite I was trying to work around. I am looking for another spell that might give a similar bonus of multiple dice at 4th level as a bonus to a ranged attack.
Just because you are not visible, doesn't mean the perception check doesn't happen. There's more to perception than just sight.
Flame arrows?
yeah, someone caught that and it pretty much killed the point of this build. I have been trying to find an alternative spell that will fit the bill, but I think the developers built things this way on purpose so you can't make this kind of ranged nova.
18 levels wizard and 2 levels fighter can cast 2 high level disintegrates for 37d6+80 damage (assuming you can impose disadvantage or force a fail on saves), 209.5 average damage.
Not Ranged but..
Quivering Palm
At 17th level, you gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can spend 3 ki points to start these imperceptible vibrations, which last for a number of days equal to your monk level. The vibrations are harmless unless you use your action to end them. To do so, you and the target must be on the same plane of existence. When you use this action, the creature must make a Constitution saving throw. If it fails, it is reduced to 0 hit points. If it succeeds, it takes 10d10 necrotic damage.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Edit
DxJxC
Sorry, but no they can't. Look at the rules about castng multiple spells per turn. Only if the other spell is a cantrip bonus action. Disintegrate definitely doesn't qualify.