...I mean, I like Bigby as a gnome... the name "Bigby" even sounds kinda gnomish... BUT, Bigby's history/lore states that he was a human, not a gnome.
Anyone at WotC able to tell us why they decided to change this well recognized lore now? Was he changed into a gnome somewhere along the line and I missed it?
Wait; Change to Gnome?? In the book, he wrote a comment about being teased about choosing new stuff to fit his new size. Lore, maybe he was a human and changed to a gnome in the story. Though I still think he may have had a crush on a goddess of giants. may have peeved off Daddy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
Wait; Change to Gnome?? In the book, he wrote a comment about being teased about choosing new stuff to fit his new size. Lore, maybe he was a human and changed to a gnome in the story. Though I still think he may have had a crush on a goddess of giants. may have peeved off Daddy.
Yeah... I don't know where I missed that transformation. Perhaps it was in some fantasy novel series? If anyone knows, please pipe in.
...I mean, I like Bigby as a gnome... the name "Bigby" even sounds kinda gnomish... BUT, Bigby's history/lore states that he was a human, not a gnome.
Anyone at WotC able to tell us why they decided to change this well recognized lore now? Was he changed into a gnome somewhere along the line and I missed it?
OF COURSE I should read the book before posting... the answers may very well lie within.
So... while I haven't completely read the book yet (I just got it today), skimming it revealed that apparently Bigby died somehow... fighting giants? Perhaps in a fantasy novel? How did he die? ANYWAYS... in this book there is a Bigby note: "One of my first encounters with giants was also the last thing I did at my old friend (and former foe) Mordenkainen’s side. He claims to this day that no cleric was available to restore me to life, only a druid, but he can’t hide his smirk when he says it." This would lead to the conclusion that Bigby died and Mordenkainen had a druid cast Reincarnate on him, placing his soul into the body of a gnome.
SO... what book or story, whatever did he die? or are we just skipping to that here?
Bigby being a gnome is new to Glory of the Giants.
Despite D&D still using their names on spells, the Legendary Wizards of Greyhawk really haven't been featured in the lore in the last 30 years or so aside from the occasional article in Dragon magazine when it was still a printed work. What we're seeing here is basically "yeah, Bigby was having Great Offscreen Adventures with a giant goddess after being reincarnated as a gnome thanks to being killed by a giant at some point in the past."
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That may actually go back to1e. I remember in one of the books back then ( I think a faiths book but …) they had stats for the grayhawk NPCs (I believe they were actually Gygax and company’s PCs just as the hero’s of Myth Drannor were the PCs of Greenwood’s group in FR) and I remember something about his death and reincarnation being in it. Don’t think I still have that book but I’ll check.
That may actually go back to1e. I remember in one of the books back then ( I think a faiths book but …) they had stats for the grayhawk NPCs (I believe they were actually Gygax and company’s PCs just as the hero’s of Myth Drannor were the PCs of Greenwood’s group in FR) and I remember something about his death and reincarnation being in it. Don’t think I still have that book but I’ll check.
I don't think that's in the 1e faiths book, I have the Deities and Demi-Gods and Legends and Lore books. It may be in an old Grayhawk book though. I am really curious. Let us know if you find it!
...I mean, I like Bigby as a gnome... the name "Bigby" even sounds kinda gnomish... BUT, Bigby's history/lore states that he was a human, not a gnome.
Anyone at WotC able to tell us why they decided to change this well recognized lore now? Was he changed into a gnome somewhere along the line and I missed it?
OF COURSE I should read the book before posting... the answers may very well lie within.
So... while I haven't completely read the book yet (I just got it today), skimming it revealed that apparently Bigby died somehow... fighting giants? Perhaps in a fantasy novel? How did he die? ANYWAYS... in this book there is a Bigby note: "One of my first encounters with giants was also the last thing I did at my old friend (and former foe) Mordenkainen’s side. He claims to this day that no cleric was available to restore me to life, only a druid, but he can’t hide his smirk when he says it." This would lead to the conclusion that Bigby died and Mordenkainen had a druid cast Reincarnate on him, placing his soul into the body of a gnome.
SO... what book or story, whatever did he die? or are we just skipping to that here?
just under those words is a picture of modenkainen super hero posing beside a boulder. out from under the boulder are protruding two lifeless legs wearing a pair of red boots just Bibgy's (former) size... could be the wicked witch of the east?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
...I mean, I like Bigby as a gnome... the name "Bigby" even sounds kinda gnomish... BUT, Bigby's history/lore states that he was a human, not a gnome.
Anyone at WotC able to tell us why they decided to change this well recognized lore now? Was he changed into a gnome somewhere along the line and I missed it?
OF COURSE I should read the book before posting... the answers may very well lie within.
So... while I haven't completely read the book yet (I just got it today), skimming it revealed that apparently Bigby died somehow... fighting giants? Perhaps in a fantasy novel? How did he die? ANYWAYS... in this book there is a Bigby note: "One of my first encounters with giants was also the last thing I did at my old friend (and former foe) Mordenkainen’s side. He claims to this day that no cleric was available to restore me to life, only a druid, but he can’t hide his smirk when he says it." This would lead to the conclusion that Bigby died and Mordenkainen had a druid cast Reincarnate on him, placing his soul into the body of a gnome.
SO... what book or story, whatever did he die? or are we just skipping to that here?
just under those words is a picture of modenkainen super hero posing beside a boulder. out from under the boulder are protruding two lifeless legs wearing a pair of red boots just Bibgy's (former) size... could be the wicked witch of the east?
Yup, saw that. Just didn't put it together right away.
I think one the monster entries mentions his death.
Shortly before encountering the frost giant whose well-placed boulder ended my human existence, Mordenkainen and I saw a giant lynx. It was just staring into space, in that oh-so-feline way. Mordenkainen wanted to talk to it, to find out what it was looking at, but I successfully dissuaded him.
That is under the giant lynx, not sure what he did to the Frost giant, but it certainly took offense.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
...I mean, I like Bigby as a gnome... the name "Bigby" even sounds kinda gnomish... BUT, Bigby's history/lore states that he was a human, not a gnome.
Anyone at WotC able to tell us why they decided to change this well recognized lore now? Was he changed into a gnome somewhere along the line and I missed it?
They changed the character because they don't really care about the history of the game or the creators who provided the foundations that allows them to pursue their crass monetisation schemes. Moves like this make me hope that, barring a major change in how they approach the game (i.e., not acting like WoTC-Hasbro and instead, respecting creators, not trying to turn everything into a video game, having no association with the Pinkertons) they will never bring back Greyhawk as a setting. They'd just sully it.
Lol he's a gnome now. I love the change. I love the fact that they're not stuck to the ways of the creators from almost 50 years ago and can change things to breathe fresh life into the game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
That may actually go back to1e. I remember in one of the books back then ( I think a faiths book but …) they had stats for the grayhawk NPCs (I believe they were actually Gygax and company’s PCs just as the hero’s of Myth Drannor were the PCs of Greenwood’s group in FR) and I remember something about his death and reincarnation being in it. Don’t think I still have that book but I’ll check.
The only 1e stats I recall were those included in the Rogues Gallery (where he was a 13th-level human magic user). He also appears in the 2e module Vecna Lives!, where he was an 18th-level human mage.
As an aside, the creator of Bigby (Rob Kuntz) is an active game designer who is accessible through various fora and regularly engages with the Greyhawk community; I highly doubt he was either consulted about this or that he would have given it his blessing (not that I think that the designers would have sought it, given that they work for a soulless-Pinkerton-hiring corporation like WoTC-Hasbro).
a brief google tells me Bigby was created by Rob Kuntz but later played as a PC by Gygax. Those were all lost when he left TSR in 1985. so, Mr Kuntz might have a creative opinion but gave up control a while ago.
also, the same site notes that Bigby died with Tenser in the tomb of Halmadar the Cruel in 581CY (Vecna Lives! adventure). he was brought back via clone spell shenanigans for the 1991 Greyhawk WARS box set where Tenser died again. i can't figure out if Bigby was part of the 1998 "return of the eight" adventure (almost certainly referring to Gygax's Circle of Eight which was previously knocked down to Circle of Five in the WARS box), but Tenser reappears somehow. probably more clones.
in my opinion, if you're willing to accept the clone stuff then you can handle reincarnation.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
a brief google tells me Bigby was created by Rob Kuntz but later played as a PC by Gygax. Those were all lost when he left TSR in 1985. so, Mr Kuntz might have a creative opinion but gave up control a while ago.
also, the same site notes that Bigby died with Tenser in the tomb of Halmadar the Cruel in 581CY (Vecna Lives! adventure). he was brought back via clone spell shenanigans for the 1991 Greyhawk WARS box set where Tenser died again. i can't figure out if Bigby was part of the 1998 "return of the eight" adventure (almost certainly referring to Gygax's Circle of Eight which was previously knocked down to Circle of Five in the WARS box), but Tenser reappears somehow. probably more clones.
in my opinion, if you're willing to accept the clone stuff then you can handle reincarnation.
Google did not let you down, but in in no way does it invalidate anything I said in either of my posts (Bigby, incidentally, is alive and mentioned in passing in the Return of the Eight, but plays no major role in the adventure, in which Tenser is returned, as you surmised, by means of a clone that is discovered on one of Oerth's moons).
That said, I made no comment on anyone having a legal right to weigh in on and/or control these characters, nor, for that matter, did I comment on the arc of their development subsequent to the departure of Gygax and other early contributors.
What I will say, though, is that it would have cost them nothing to reach out the creator of the character; not doing so is yet another example of the distain the company (in its various incarnations) has for the original contributors to the game. Imho, this distain is increasingly being expanded to the existing base of players (cf. Pinkertons, OGL, etc.).
Yes, yes, how dare a company seek to reclaim property belonging to it that was improperly released, and do something other than rigidly adhere to tradition. We get that you don’t like WotC, you don’t need to keep blowing the dog whistle.
a brief google tells me Bigby was created by Rob Kuntz but later played as a PC by Gygax. Those were all lost when he left TSR in 1985. so, Mr Kuntz might have a creative opinion but gave up control a while ago.
also, the same site notes that Bigby died with Tenser in the tomb of Halmadar the Cruel in 581CY (Vecna Lives! adventure). he was brought back via clone spell shenanigans for the 1991 Greyhawk WARS box set where Tenser died again. i can't figure out if Bigby was part of the 1998 "return of the eight" adventure (almost certainly referring to Gygax's Circle of Eight which was previously knocked down to Circle of Five in the WARS box), but Tenser reappears somehow. probably more clones.
in my opinion, if you're willing to accept the clone stuff then you can handle reincarnation.
Google did not let you down, but in in no way does it invalidate anything I said in either of my posts (Bigby, incidentally, is alive and mentioned in passing in the Return of the Eight, but plays no major role in the adventure, in which Tenser is returned, as you surmised, by means of a clone that is discovered on one of Oerth's moons).
That said, I made no comment on anyone having a legal right to weigh in on and/or control these characters, nor, for that matter, did I comment on the arc of their development subsequent to the departure of Gygax and other early contributors.
What I will say, though, is that it would have cost them nothing to reach out the creator of the character; not doing so is yet another example of the distain the company (in its various incarnations) has for the original contributors to the game. Imho, this distain is increasingly being expanded to the existing base of players (cf. Pinkertons, OGL, etc.).
and i'm just sayin' eight party members died in that tomb, many of them associated with Kuntz (and Gygax). so, on the one hand Rob Kuntz has been bereaved of Bigby before, on the other hand Bigby was his for only the length of a charm spell in the 70s, and on a third hand we don't know that no one reached out. if he's irate, it certainly isn't reflected in his re-tweet of the dalai lama regarding being warm-hearted and less selfish.
now, you've referenced Hasbro's use of armed thugs twice which is basically the godwin's law of d&d forums. it's obvious you're frustrated with the company and parent company. however, bigby's gnomening might not be the hill of soapboxes worth having a last stand on. just sayin.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
...I mean, I like Bigby as a gnome... the name "Bigby" even sounds kinda gnomish... BUT, Bigby's history/lore states that he was a human, not a gnome.
Anyone at WotC able to tell us why they decided to change this well recognized lore now? Was he changed into a gnome somewhere along the line and I missed it?
The Art Wizard of Oaktown
Wait; Change to Gnome??
In the book, he wrote a comment about being teased about choosing new stuff to fit his new size.
Lore, maybe he was a human and changed to a gnome in the story.
Though I still think he may have had a crush on a goddess of giants.
may have peeved off Daddy.
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
Yeah... I don't know where I missed that transformation. Perhaps it was in some fantasy novel series? If anyone knows, please pipe in.
The Art Wizard of Oaktown
OF COURSE I should read the book before posting... the answers may very well lie within.
So... while I haven't completely read the book yet (I just got it today), skimming it revealed that apparently Bigby died somehow... fighting giants? Perhaps in a fantasy novel? How did he die? ANYWAYS... in this book there is a Bigby note: "One of my first encounters with giants was also the last thing I did at my old friend (and former foe) Mordenkainen’s side. He claims to this day that no cleric was available to restore me to life, only a druid, but he can’t hide his smirk when he says it."
This would lead to the conclusion that Bigby died and Mordenkainen had a druid cast Reincarnate on him, placing his soul into the body of a gnome.
SO... what book or story, whatever did he die? or are we just skipping to that here?
The Art Wizard of Oaktown
Bigby being a gnome is new to Glory of the Giants.
Despite D&D still using their names on spells, the Legendary Wizards of Greyhawk really haven't been featured in the lore in the last 30 years or so aside from the occasional article in Dragon magazine when it was still a printed work. What we're seeing here is basically "yeah, Bigby was having Great Offscreen Adventures with a giant goddess after being reincarnated as a gnome thanks to being killed by a giant at some point in the past."
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
As a lover of the “Reincarnate” spell; approve of this tomfoolery.
That may actually go back to1e. I remember in one of the books back then ( I think a faiths book but …) they had stats for the grayhawk NPCs (I believe they were actually Gygax and company’s PCs just as the hero’s of Myth Drannor were the PCs of Greenwood’s group in FR) and I remember something about his death and reincarnation being in it. Don’t think I still have that book but I’ll check.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I don't think that's in the 1e faiths book, I have the Deities and Demi-Gods and Legends and Lore books. It may be in an old Grayhawk book though. I am really curious. Let us know if you find it!
The Art Wizard of Oaktown
just under those words is a picture of modenkainen super hero posing beside a boulder. out from under the boulder are protruding two lifeless legs wearing a pair of red boots just Bibgy's (former) size... could be the wicked witch of the east?
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Yup, saw that. Just didn't put it together right away.
The Art Wizard of Oaktown
I think one the monster entries mentions his death.
Shortly before encountering the frost giant whose well-placed boulder ended my human existence, Mordenkainen and I saw a giant lynx. It was just staring into space, in that oh-so-feline way. Mordenkainen wanted to talk to it, to find out what it was looking at, but I successfully dissuaded him.
That is under the giant lynx, not sure what he did to the Frost giant, but it certainly took offense.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Ah…clearly this character meant something to someone, at a certain time.
It can be difficult when a character goes through a dramatic change…it’s like when Sir Arthur Conan Doyle decided to kill off Sherlock Holmes.
They changed the character because they don't really care about the history of the game or the creators who provided the foundations that allows them to pursue their crass monetisation schemes. Moves like this make me hope that, barring a major change in how they approach the game (i.e., not acting like WoTC-Hasbro and instead, respecting creators, not trying to turn everything into a video game, having no association with the Pinkertons) they will never bring back Greyhawk as a setting. They'd just sully it.
Lol he's a gnome now. I love the change. I love the fact that they're not stuck to the ways of the creators from almost 50 years ago and can change things to breathe fresh life into the game.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
The only 1e stats I recall were those included in the Rogues Gallery (where he was a 13th-level human magic user). He also appears in the 2e module Vecna Lives!, where he was an 18th-level human mage.
As an aside, the creator of Bigby (Rob Kuntz) is an active game designer who is accessible through various fora and regularly engages with the Greyhawk community; I highly doubt he was either consulted about this or that he would have given it his blessing (not that I think that the designers would have sought it, given that they work for a soulless-Pinkerton-hiring corporation like WoTC-Hasbro).
a brief google tells me Bigby was created by Rob Kuntz but later played as a PC by Gygax. Those were all lost when he left TSR in 1985. so, Mr Kuntz might have a creative opinion but gave up control a while ago.
also, the same site notes that Bigby died with Tenser in the tomb of Halmadar the Cruel in 581CY (Vecna Lives! adventure). he was brought back via clone spell shenanigans for the 1991 Greyhawk WARS box set where Tenser died again. i can't figure out if Bigby was part of the 1998 "return of the eight" adventure (almost certainly referring to Gygax's Circle of Eight which was previously knocked down to Circle of Five in the WARS box), but Tenser reappears somehow. probably more clones.
in my opinion, if you're willing to accept the clone stuff then you can handle reincarnation.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Google did not let you down, but in in no way does it invalidate anything I said in either of my posts (Bigby, incidentally, is alive and mentioned in passing in the Return of the Eight, but plays no major role in the adventure, in which Tenser is returned, as you surmised, by means of a clone that is discovered on one of Oerth's moons).
That said, I made no comment on anyone having a legal right to weigh in on and/or control these characters, nor, for that matter, did I comment on the arc of their development subsequent to the departure of Gygax and other early contributors.
What I will say, though, is that it would have cost them nothing to reach out the creator of the character; not doing so is yet another example of the distain the company (in its various incarnations) has for the original contributors to the game. Imho, this distain is increasingly being expanded to the existing base of players (cf. Pinkertons, OGL, etc.).
Yes, yes, how dare a company seek to reclaim property belonging to it that was improperly released, and do something other than rigidly adhere to tradition. We get that you don’t like WotC, you don’t need to keep blowing the dog whistle.
and i'm just sayin' eight party members died in that tomb, many of them associated with Kuntz (and Gygax). so, on the one hand Rob Kuntz has been bereaved of Bigby before, on the other hand Bigby was his for only the length of a charm spell in the 70s, and on a third hand we don't know that no one reached out. if he's irate, it certainly isn't reflected in his re-tweet of the dalai lama regarding being warm-hearted and less selfish.
now, you've referenced Hasbro's use of armed thugs twice which is basically the godwin's law of d&d forums. it's obvious you're frustrated with the company and parent company. however, bigby's gnomening might not be the hill of soapboxes worth having a last stand on. just sayin.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
So glad they were looking to discuss a lore question and not just use it as a soapbox for another "why WotC are evil" speech.