so as a Druid I change into a scorpion . I now have two claw attacks and a stinging tail , question is do I have to have the claw grapple and if so what can I do with the guy in my claw, he can still attack but I’ve lost an attack with the claw
Basically the grappled creature can't move away from you until the grapple is broken and you get some ability to move that creature around against it's will (https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/phb/combat#Grappling). Grappling is meant as an ability to control the field, not increase damage.
With the claw grappling one creature, you can still attack with that claw but only attack that creature.
Can you? That doesn't track for me. It seems like they'd have to open the claw to make another attack, thus breaking the grapple. Of course, if they land with the next attack, they'd re-grapple them.
With the claw grappling one creature, you can still attack with that claw but only attack that creature.
Can you? That doesn't track for me. It seems like they'd have to open the claw to make another attack, thus breaking the grapple. Of course, if they land with the next attack, they'd re-grapple them.
Imagine the claw squeezing tighter on the grappled creature. That's why you can attack only the creature you are grappling with the occupied claw.
With the claw grappling one creature, you can still attack with that claw but only attack that creature.
Can you? That doesn't track for me. It seems like they'd have to open the claw to make another attack, thus breaking the grapple. Of course, if they land with the next attack, they'd re-grapple them.
Honestly I was curious about this too. I don't see anything about grappling that says you can use the occupied limb to attack the grappled creature without releasing the grapple, nor do I see anything special about the Giant Scorpion block that would indicate that either.
The special thing about the Giant Scorpion attack is that with the successful natural weapon attack, the target is automatically grappled. The claw does the attack and the grappled condition at the same time. This is the case where the specific rule (the claw attack) beats the general rule (using at least one free hand/limb).
The target can escape the grappled condition only with an action (Athletics check vs. DC). If the scorpion attacks again with the same claw, that is not a condition for ending the grappled condition.
The special thing about the Giant Scorpion attack is that with the successful natural weapon attack, the target is automatically grappled. The claw does the attack and the grappled condition at the same time. This is the case where the specific rule (the claw attack) beats the general rule (using at least one free hand/limb).
The target can escape the grappled condition only with an action (Athletics check vs. DC). If the scorpion attacks again with the same claw, that is not a condition for ending the grappled condition.
Scop Claw Description: Claw.Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) bludgeoning damage, and the target is grappled (escape DC 12). The scorpion has two claws, each of which can grapple only one target.
So if I've got a target trapped in my claws, I can attack that target again with the same claw (because the claw can grapple and deal damage at the same time) and even though I may miss on the new attack, the conditions to remove grapple have not been met and the target remains grappled.
So following this logic, this should also work: I have 2 targets.
I make a claw attack against A -> Right claw misses, left claw hits -> Target A is now grappled my left claw.
I attempt to attack Target B with both claws -> Both attempts are failures -> Target A remains grappled
I attempt to attack Target B again with both claws -> Right claw misses, but left claw hits -> Target B is now grappled in my left claw, but Target A is now free
The special thing about the Giant Scorpion attack is that with the successful natural weapon attack, the target is automatically grappled. The claw does the attack and the grappled condition at the same time. This is the case where the specific rule (the claw attack) beats the general rule (using at least one free hand/limb).
The target can escape the grappled condition only with an action (Athletics check vs. DC). If the scorpion attacks again with the same claw, that is not a condition for ending the grappled condition.
Scop Claw Description: Claw.Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) bludgeoning damage, and the target is grappled (escape DC 12). The scorpion has two claws, each of which can grapple only one target.
So if I've got a target trapped in my claws, I can attack that target again with the same claw (because the claw can grapple and deal damage at the same time) and even though I may miss on the new attack, the conditions to remove grapple have not been met and the target remains grappled.
So following this logic, this should also work: I have 2 targets.
I make a claw attack against A -> Right claw misses, left claw hits -> Target A is now grappled my left claw.
I attempt to attack Target B with both claws -> Both attempts are failures -> Target A remains grappled
I attempt to attack Target B again with both claws -> Right claw misses, but left claw hits -> Target B is now grappled in my left claw, but Target A is now free
I would assume you can only attack the creature you are holding grappled. Should you choose to to hit/attack another creature with the claw that you have someone (target A) grappled with, that dude would now be let loose and the result of the attack might be that you end up grappling target B. But wy not see if you can grapple both target A + B with left/right claw respectively? Option 2 in this scenario/interpretation would never be allowed. Logic would dictate that you lose grip on target A, should you focus an attack on someone else (unless the nature of your attack with left claw changes too. Let's say e.g. if you use your grappled foe as a kind of ram to now do bludgeoning damage to target B.
The special thing about the Giant Scorpion attack is that with the successful natural weapon attack, the target is automatically grappled. The claw does the attack and the grappled condition at the same time. This is the case where the specific rule (the claw attack) beats the general rule (using at least one free hand/limb).
The target can escape the grappled condition only with an action (Athletics check vs. DC). If the scorpion attacks again with the same claw, that is not a condition for ending the grappled condition.
Scop Claw Description: Claw.Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) bludgeoning damage, and the target is grappled (escape DC 12). The scorpion has two claws, each of which can grapple only one target.
So if I've got a target trapped in my claws, I can attack that target again with the same claw (because the claw can grapple and deal damage at the same time) and even though I may miss on the new attack, the conditions to remove grapple have not been met and the target remains grappled.
So following this logic, this should also work: I have 2 targets.
I make a claw attack against A -> Right claw misses, left claw hits -> Target A is now grappled my left claw.
I attempt to attack Target B with both claws -> Both attempts are failures -> Target A remains grappled
I attempt to attack Target B again with both claws -> Right claw misses, but left claw hits -> Target B is now grappled in my left claw, but Target A is now free
I would assume you can only attack the creature you are holding grappled. Should you choose to to hit/attack another creature with the claw that you have someone (target A) grappled with, that dude would now be let loose and the result of the attack might be that you end up grappling target B. But wy not see if you can grapple both target A + B with left/right claw respectively? Option 2 in this scenario/interpretation would never be allowed. Logic would dictate that you lose grip on target A, should you focus an attack on someone else (unless the nature of your attack with left claw changes too. Let's say e.g. if you use your grappled foe as a kind of ram to now do bludgeoning damage to target B.
This is purely a rules lawyer/RAW question, not a strategy question. I'm a software dev by trade and filcats feedback has me all in a tizzy about the logic involved and what seems like a REALLY strange side effect.
Regarding 'Option 2'. Why is that the logical conclusion? If the scorpion can get around the "must attack with a free hand" common (game) sense rule, why does it need to be the same target as the one currently grappled? Why does (game) logic dictate that you lose grip on target A?
I'm trying to find the gap between real world expectation and rules interpretation.
Now to go down the rabbit hole:
Scorpions have an attack labeled 'claw' that does a certain type of damage in a certain range with a guaranteed side effect. What we don't know is the actual steps the scorpion takes in order to execute that action. What is the collection of minute actions that make up that attack? Does it open its claw and pinch the target in order to do damage? Of course, that's what we expect. But what if it doesn't attack like that all the time? Couldn't the scorpion, in theory, attempt to spear the target with it's claw? That would get you some piercing damage. How about if the scorpion has a spiky carapace and instead of pinching at the target it does a backhand to deal damage and it's the spines are what result in the 'piercing' type damage? We get don't that info, it's fluff for the DM to fill in. Again, all the book tells us is that if a 'claw' attack is successful there's x amount of type y damage dealt, and the target is grappled in the claw that it attacked with.
Okay, so if a giant scorpion 'claw' attack doesn't need to be a pinchy action, we can describe my scenario in a way that works for the game:
<In DM voice>
The Giant Scorpion opens it's claws and pinches at Ben The Mighty! It misses with the right claw, but manages to catch Ben in it's left. Ben takes damage and is now grappled in the monster's left claw.
While still grasping Ben, the scorpion attempts to attack Willy The Wizard. It makes a claw attack with it's right...and pinches nothing but air! It attacks with it's left aaaand that is also a miss! It attempted to slam the back of it's claw in Willy's face and got nothing but air! Ben must have disturbed it's balance with his wriggling and flopping about.
The Giant Scorpion attacks Willy again...why? I hate his name that's why. Once again the scorpion attempts an attack with it's right claw and misses! It then swings with the left and hits! The scorpion drops Ben and grabs Willy in it's left claw slicing into Willy's arm while tightening it's grasp.
The fluff describing each attack only matters after the result of the dice are determined. In step two the left attack is described as a backhand specifically because that attack attempt failed, so no damage was dealt and no grapple engaged. Then in step 3 the attack is described as the scorpion dropping Ben and making a pinch at Willy specifically because the attack was successful. Once the 'claw' attack is successful all the other rules engage, damage is dealt, grapple is applied, and because it's spelled out that the scorpion can only grapple one target per claw, Ben is dropped.
Or at least this is what I think filcat is trying to get across...
so as a Druid I change into a scorpion . I now have two claw attacks and a stinging tail , question is do I have to have the claw grapple and if so what can I do with the guy in my claw, he can still attack but I’ve lost an attack with the claw
With the claw grappling one creature, you can still attack with that claw but only attack that creature.
That makes sence now would that be at advantage or auto hit as claw already has them ?
Once the creature is grappled you follow the normal grappling rules: https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/appendix-a-conditions#Grappled
Basically the grappled creature can't move away from you until the grapple is broken and you get some ability to move that creature around against it's will (https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/phb/combat#Grappling). Grappling is meant as an ability to control the field, not increase damage.
Grappled only reduces movement to 0, it confers no benefit to attack rolls.
Can you? That doesn't track for me. It seems like they'd have to open the claw to make another attack, thus breaking the grapple. Of course, if they land with the next attack, they'd re-grapple them.
Imagine the claw squeezing tighter on the grappled creature. That's why you can attack only the creature you are grappling with the occupied claw.
Honestly I was curious about this too. I don't see anything about grappling that says you can use the occupied limb to attack the grappled creature without releasing the grapple, nor do I see anything special about the Giant Scorpion block that would indicate that either.
The special thing about the Giant Scorpion attack is that with the successful natural weapon attack, the target is automatically grappled. The claw does the attack and the grappled condition at the same time. This is the case where the specific rule (the claw attack) beats the general rule (using at least one free hand/limb).
The target can escape the grappled condition only with an action (Athletics check vs. DC). If the scorpion attacks again with the same claw, that is not a condition for ending the grappled condition.
Scop Claw Description: Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) bludgeoning damage, and the target is grappled (escape DC 12). The scorpion has two claws, each of which can grapple only one target.
So if I've got a target trapped in my claws, I can attack that target again with the same claw (because the claw can grapple and deal damage at the same time) and even though I may miss on the new attack, the conditions to remove grapple have not been met and the target remains grappled.
So following this logic, this should also work: I have 2 targets.
I would assume you can only attack the creature you are holding grappled. Should you choose to to hit/attack another creature with the claw that you have someone (target A) grappled with, that dude would now be let loose and the result of the attack might be that you end up grappling target B. But wy not see if you can grapple both target A + B with left/right claw respectively? Option 2 in this scenario/interpretation would never be allowed. Logic would dictate that you lose grip on target A, should you focus an attack on someone else (unless the nature of your attack with left claw changes too. Let's say e.g. if you use your grappled foe as a kind of ram to now do bludgeoning damage to target B.
This is purely a rules lawyer/RAW question, not a strategy question. I'm a software dev by trade and filcats feedback has me all in a tizzy about the logic involved and what seems like a REALLY strange side effect.
Regarding 'Option 2'. Why is that the logical conclusion? If the scorpion can get around the "must attack with a free hand" common (game) sense rule, why does it need to be the same target as the one currently grappled? Why does (game) logic dictate that you lose grip on target A?
I'm trying to find the gap between real world expectation and rules interpretation.
Now to go down the rabbit hole:
Scorpions have an attack labeled 'claw' that does a certain type of damage in a certain range with a guaranteed side effect. What we don't know is the actual steps the scorpion takes in order to execute that action. What is the collection of minute actions that make up that attack? Does it open its claw and pinch the target in order to do damage? Of course, that's what we expect. But what if it doesn't attack like that all the time? Couldn't the scorpion, in theory, attempt to spear the target with it's claw? That would get you some piercing damage. How about if the scorpion has a spiky carapace and instead of pinching at the target it does a backhand to deal damage and it's the spines are what result in the 'piercing' type damage? We get don't that info, it's fluff for the DM to fill in. Again, all the book tells us is that if a 'claw' attack is successful there's x amount of type y damage dealt, and the target is grappled in the claw that it attacked with.
Okay, so if a giant scorpion 'claw' attack doesn't need to be a pinchy action, we can describe my scenario in a way that works for the game:
<In DM voice>
The fluff describing each attack only matters after the result of the dice are determined. In step two the left attack is described as a backhand specifically because that attack attempt failed, so no damage was dealt and no grapple engaged. Then in step 3 the attack is described as the scorpion dropping Ben and making a pinch at Willy specifically because the attack was successful. Once the 'claw' attack is successful all the other rules engage, damage is dealt, grapple is applied, and because it's spelled out that the scorpion can only grapple one target per claw, Ben is dropped.
Or at least this is what I think filcat is trying to get across...