Oh Yeah? Give me an example where it is a real problem.
It's not that big a problem with 5e because there just isn't that much rules material to use - basically only the PHB and Xanathar's, plus some races from Volo's and Mordenkainen's. And a tiny bit of stuff from Sword Coast, but the best parts of that are reprinted in Xanathar's anyway.
But I'm guessing that when they instituted the +1 rule, they weren't entirely sure what direction they were going in with 5e. For example, with both 3e and 4e, they released a lot of player-focused material, not all of it very well playtested. One of the selling points of the 3e FRCS was even that it contained a whole bunch of feats/prestige classes/spells that were easily usable even if you weren't playing in FR, and toward the end of 3e's life they even released books whose main purpose was collecting the magic items and spells spread out over a bazillion books. Across the books I have for 3.5e, I have about 50 different base classes available. It is completely impossible to get a grasp on all the different ways these rules elements can interact. In a home game, a DM can always nix any particular combo, but that's not an option in a shared campaign like AL. So stricter rules are needed, and Core +1 is it.
So you are swinging the "I am an 3.5 veteran and know better where this can lead" argument.
But as you state correctly, this is 5E not 3.5E. The situation is different, there are only 12 base classes and no new (official) in sight. So I see no need for PHB+1 from this regard. We have a lot of race options yes, but races only change the build a little compared to classes. And most additional subclasses are there anyways because the majority chooses Xanathar's (more or less against will)
The PHB+1 rule was explicitly stated to lower the barrier for entry and the intimidation factor for attracting both new players (who may not want to splash down a huge chunk) and young players (who may not have a bunch of cash to spare). It has some of the additional effects stated in other posts, but that is the big reason given by WotC numerous times. They have specifically said they reprinted somethings deliberately in other books due to the PHB+1 rule which also means that some things they deliberately did not reprint. Like the SCAG cantrips not being in XGtE. They would go great with Hexblade, but you can't for AL Or the Volo's playable races being limited to PHB classes/subclasses. They clearly did that deliberately. You can argue that they are wrong or that it wouldn't be a balance issue, but they clearly think it is. I have been consistently impressed with how well thought out a lot of balance type issues are handled in 5e and give the benefit of the doubt that they are right more often than not.
AL play has a specific flavor and I think this rule does a lot to help reinforce that.
The PHB +1 rule steps on some of my character concepts and wishes. That said, I think that it's preferable to have some of my concepts and wishes stepped on than to risk the blatant powercreep of 3.5 rules stacking. I hope that they are smart and don't cave to pressure to remove PHB+1. There's home games for those custom characters to take advantage of multiple books.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Don't forget, for organised play, they'd probably rather attract newer players at the expense of veterans, that vice versa. Veteran players will still play - just going to go off and do their own thing - nothing lost. If they don't attract new players, that's potential lost fans/$$$.
I think it needs to remain in place, purely to avoid huge and unforseen min/max creep. Racial and subclass combos can actually give fairly significant boosts to damage output or skill abilities. It does bum me out a bit though, as I'd love nothing more than a Tabaxi Swashbuckler.
I agree with Li0nbear. I'd rather have it than not have it. Daisy chaining source books together is how 3e got to where it got. I think the +1 rule is a good shield against powercreep/unintended consequences. I wouldn't even mind abiding by it in the home game I play in.
What do you mean my half-copper dragon pixie paladin /sorcerer/disciple of mammon/dread commando isn't AL legal?!!?
With the +1 rule, I feel locked out on some of the new material. Classes,races, and sub classes it makes sense I can’t change it. However, if they release new spells in a compendium it would be nice to be able to use them. Maybe they could put in a ruling for tier 3 that would let you use spells and the like from a newer source guide.
With the +1 rule, I feel locked out on some of the new material. Classes,races, and sub classes it makes sense I can’t change it. However, if they release new spells in a compendium it would be nice to be able to use them. Maybe they could put in a ruling for tier 3 that would let you use spells and the like from a newer source guide.
I would think spell scrolls are a fix for wizards. I'm not sure if there is any restriction on what spell scrolls you can purchase for treasure points. You could buy a spell from any source and subsequently copy it to your spell book. Unfortunately, I don't think that would work for the other casting classes which choose spells from a specific list. The list being limited by the sources used to create the character.
With the +1 rule, I feel locked out on some of the new material. Classes,races, and sub classes it makes sense I can’t change it. However, if they release new spells in a compendium it would be nice to be able to use them. Maybe they could put in a ruling for tier 3 that would let you use spells and the like from a newer source guide.
I would think spell scrolls are a fix for wizards. I'm not sure if there is any restriction on what spell scrolls you can purchase for treasure points. You could buy a spell from any source and subsequently copy it to your spell book. Unfortunately, I don't think that would work for the other casting classes which choose spells from a specific list. The list being limited by the sources used to create the character.
Correct.
Wizard is the odd case in that you can't select outside of PHB +1 for the two free spells each level up, however you can BUY (or find) spells from other sources and add them to your spellbook. However, since this is AL, you generally won't have the money anyways to add much beyond your two freebies.
The only place I feel really restricted by the +1 rule is with race/subclass combos. If they would uncouple race from the +1 rule the same way they've done with background, it would make a big difference.
When/where did they say you could have any background regardless of the PHB+1 rule? I wasn't aware they did that. :/ Of course, with most things AL, the documentation leaves a lot o be desired.
I mean, who doesn't love downloading dozens of .pdf files off of random websites?
In the ALPG for season 8, the Choose a Race and Class section details the PHB+1 rule for race and class options, and lists the resources that count as +1 (EEPC, SCAG, Volo's, XGtE, and MToF).
Then further along in Describe Your Character it says "Choose or create a background using the Player's Handbook or any of the resources above".
In the ALPG for season 8, the Choose a Race and Class section details the PHB+1 rule for race and class options, and lists the resources that count as +1 (EEPC, SCAG, Volo's, XGtE, and MToF).
Then further along in Describe Your Character it says "Choose or create a background using the Player's Handbook or any of the resources above".
Bah. :/ Poorly written, even more poorly organized. Ugh.
This is probably a question that has been done to death in various forms. I didn't see any in the immediate searches.
Basic question. let's say I've decided to play a 1st level variant human (PHB) which will include spells and a character archetype (Storm Sorcerer). So all my basics are PHB1 + XGtE (including all of the PC's spell).
That being said, am allowed to choose a background from SCAG rules (basically a minor Waterdeep noble known as COURTIER); or should have to pick a PHB (or original background (if allowed))? Could I also just make an 'original' background that approximates the one from SCAG?
(and I am aware that the Storm Sorcerer build is also in SCAG -- were I to make that my +! --)
Yes, you could use a SCAG background. You could also create a custom background as described in the PHB using a background feature from any of the allowable sources (but you can't make up a new feature - it has to exist in one of the published sources) .
Yes, you could use a SCAG background. You could also create a custom background as described in the PHB using a background feature from any of the allowable sources (but you can't make up a new feature - it has to exist in one of the published sources) .
So continue this further. Let's say I'm using the PHB + XGtE for a variant human storm sorcerer. (As it stand the SCAG could also have as +1 for very, very specific build.
Here is a better way to phrase my Adventurer League question:
Are any of the following combinations AL illegal?
- player books = PHB1 + XGtE.
- tooko a background from SCAG = Courtier.
- let's pretend that there were a few useful spells in Mordenkainen's Tome of Fores. My PC takes one of them as part of her first level complement.
- All of her other cantrips could from PHB + XGtE.
Is legal to learn a cantrips and spell from outside of my 1+1 at lst level and even higher levels?
The same goes with feats. Right now there are two official AL feat sources: PHB + XGtE.
Let's assume that the Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron and probably the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh also have PC spells. For the sake of this discussion, we'll assume that the books are AL legal (and the 1+1 rule is not modified from its current form]. Would my sorceress PC be able to learn AL official spells from beyond the 1 + 1?
Okay, not sure why the whole +1 throws people off, but here goes:
In Adventure League, anything other than background, as it relates to building and leveling a character MUST come from the PHB and one, AND ONLY 1, source book. So if your race comes from Volo's, you cannot learn spells or cantrips from Xanathar's.
The thing to note is that items not dealing with leveling up can come from any source. So treasure can come from any source. If you find a spellbook, or buy a scroll, AND PAY TO SCRIBE IT IN YOUR SPELLBOOK, it can come from any source. Those free spells you get each level have to come from either PHB or your one source.
This also includes things like feats. If you choose Magic Initiate, since you gained the feat either at time of creation or during leveling up, all spells must be from PHB or your one source. Ritual Caster is odd in that the first free spells you choose must come from the PHB or your source, but after that, you can scribe any spell from any source in the book.
So no matter what source book comes out in the future, once you have settled on your +1, that is your ONLY non-PHB source for leveling up additions for the life of the character.
Note: if you decide to remake your character prior to level 5, (allowed in AL rules) you can also change your +1, but ALL off your character must change to use this source. No fair getting spells from one source at level one, and then changing your source to get different spells. You have to be consistent all the way through.
Okay, not sure why the whole +1 throws people off, but here goes:
Only the last question was about rule interpretation.
The rest of the discussion is about changing the rule, because it is annoying and boring that you e.g. cannot have a race from Volos with XGtE sub classes or similar.
And for me personal I do not buy the argument that it would be too overwhelming for new player to have the option (PHB+1 could be a recommendation for new players instead). With a few players on the table you have more than PHB+1 rule books involved in any game anyways, so it also does not help the DM in any way.
PHB+1 is just annoying and also does not sell more books. It is an old rule from times where they wanted you to buy the next source book for the season. But nowadays it's just meh.
Why not forbid multi classing instead in adventures league? That would help to reduce complexity and overpowered builds. But why I cannot have an Aasimar Divine Soul Sorcerer, a Tabaxi Swashbuckler or an Oath of Conquest Goliath Paladin or similar cool combo I simply do not understand.
Not agreeing with the many explanation and flat out direct quote statements from WotC about the reasons for the +1 is not the same as not understanding.
It does make it easier on AL DMs who are already juggling drop ins they have no history with and totally new players and a pick up group getting organized.
It does lower the barrier for entry of new players both in cost and complexity and has most definitely encouraged new players to come in to play. In my last 6 months of sometimes 2x a week, there was always someone who hadn't played 5e before and at least once a month someone who never played at all.
It also makes it easier for WotC to manage change and growth across the product line to make sure any new books can be easily slotted into their "gateway/intro" system of AL. While we can say that there aren't many balance issue when spanning supplements that is entirely different from play testing and ensuring that any new book doesnt demolish balance in AL when combined oddly with all the other supplements. That is survivable for home games, but needing to house rule or eliminate something would kill AL as it started to complicate things with each new book. WotC play testing just how the new book interacts with PHB is much simpler and cleaner and faster. Even adding PHB+2 would be an exponential increase in complexity for testing.
I think they have been successful in using AL as a simpler entry point and sticking to their design ideas us smart. You can always do whatever you want in a non-AL game.
So you are swinging the "I am an 3.5 veteran and know better where this can lead" argument.
But as you state correctly, this is 5E not 3.5E. The situation is different, there are only 12 base classes and no new (official) in sight. So I see no need for PHB+1 from this regard. We have a lot of race options yes, but races only change the build a little compared to classes. And most additional subclasses are there anyways because the majority chooses Xanathar's (more or less against will)
The PHB+1 rule was explicitly stated to lower the barrier for entry and the intimidation factor for attracting both new players (who may not want to splash down a huge chunk) and young players (who may not have a bunch of cash to spare). It has some of the additional effects stated in other posts, but that is the big reason given by WotC numerous times.
They have specifically said they reprinted somethings deliberately in other books due to the PHB+1 rule which also means that some things they deliberately did not reprint. Like the SCAG cantrips not being in XGtE. They would go great with Hexblade, but you can't for AL Or the Volo's playable races being limited to PHB classes/subclasses. They clearly did that deliberately. You can argue that they are wrong or that it wouldn't be a balance issue, but they clearly think it is.
I have been consistently impressed with how well thought out a lot of balance type issues are handled in 5e and give the benefit of the doubt that they are right more often than not.
AL play has a specific flavor and I think this rule does a lot to help reinforce that.
The PHB +1 rule steps on some of my character concepts and wishes. That said, I think that it's preferable to have some of my concepts and wishes stepped on than to risk the blatant powercreep of 3.5 rules stacking. I hope that they are smart and don't cave to pressure to remove PHB+1. There's home games for those custom characters to take advantage of multiple books.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Ok ok totally convinced me Volos + XgtE would be totally 3.5 powercreeping of death and no fun at all.
Don't forget, for organised play, they'd probably rather attract newer players at the expense of veterans, that vice versa. Veteran players will still play - just going to go off and do their own thing - nothing lost. If they don't attract new players, that's potential lost fans/$$$.
I think it needs to remain in place, purely to avoid huge and unforseen min/max creep. Racial and subclass combos can actually give fairly significant boosts to damage output or skill abilities. It does bum me out a bit though, as I'd love nothing more than a Tabaxi Swashbuckler.
What do you mean my half-copper dragon pixie paladin /sorcerer/disciple of mammon/dread commando isn't AL legal?!!?
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With the +1 rule, I feel locked out on some of the new material. Classes,races, and sub classes it makes sense I can’t change it. However, if they release new spells in a compendium it would be nice to be able to use them. Maybe they could put in a ruling for tier 3 that would let you use spells and the like from a newer source guide.
I would think spell scrolls are a fix for wizards. I'm not sure if there is any restriction on what spell scrolls you can purchase for treasure points. You could buy a spell from any source and subsequently copy it to your spell book. Unfortunately, I don't think that would work for the other casting classes which choose spells from a specific list. The list being limited by the sources used to create the character.
Correct.
Wizard is the odd case in that you can't select outside of PHB +1 for the two free spells each level up, however you can BUY (or find) spells from other sources and add them to your spellbook. However, since this is AL, you generally won't have the money anyways to add much beyond your two freebies.
The only place I feel really restricted by the +1 rule is with race/subclass combos. If they would uncouple race from the +1 rule the same way they've done with background, it would make a big difference.
When/where did they say you could have any background regardless of the PHB+1 rule? I wasn't aware they did that. :/ Of course, with most things AL, the documentation leaves a lot o be desired.
I mean, who doesn't love downloading dozens of .pdf files off of random websites?
In the ALPG for season 8, the Choose a Race and Class section details the PHB+1 rule for race and class options, and lists the resources that count as +1 (EEPC, SCAG, Volo's, XGtE, and MToF).
Then further along in Describe Your Character it says "Choose or create a background using the Player's Handbook or any of the resources above".
Bah. :/ Poorly written, even more poorly organized. Ugh.
This is probably a question that has been done to death in various forms. I didn't see any in the immediate searches.
Basic question. let's say I've decided to play a 1st level variant human (PHB) which will include spells and a character archetype (Storm Sorcerer). So all my basics are PHB1 + XGtE (including all of the PC's spell).
That being said, am allowed to choose a background from SCAG rules (basically a minor Waterdeep noble known as COURTIER); or should have to pick a PHB (or original background (if allowed))? Could I also just make an 'original' background that approximates the one from SCAG?
(and I am aware that the Storm Sorcerer build is also in SCAG -- were I to make that my +! --)
Thanks for your help,
IT
Yes, you could use a SCAG background. You could also create a custom background as described in the PHB using a background feature from any of the allowable sources (but you can't make up a new feature - it has to exist in one of the published sources) .
So continue this further. Let's say I'm using the PHB + XGtE for a variant human storm sorcerer. (As it stand the SCAG could also have as +1 for very, very specific build.
Here is a better way to phrase my Adventurer League question:
Are any of the following combinations AL illegal?
- player books = PHB1 + XGtE.
- tooko a background from SCAG = Courtier.
- let's pretend that there were a few useful spells in Mordenkainen's Tome of Fores. My PC takes one of them as part of her first level complement.
- All of her other cantrips could from PHB + XGtE.
Is legal to learn a cantrips and spell from outside of my 1+1 at lst level and even higher levels?
The same goes with feats. Right now there are two official AL feat sources: PHB + XGtE.
Let's assume that the Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron and probably the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh also have PC spells. For the sake of this discussion, we'll assume that the books are AL legal (and the 1+1 rule is not modified from its current form]. Would my sorceress PC be able to learn AL official spells from beyond the 1 + 1?
Thank you,
IT
Okay, not sure why the whole +1 throws people off, but here goes:
In Adventure League, anything other than background, as it relates to building and leveling a character MUST come from the PHB and one, AND ONLY 1, source book. So if your race comes from Volo's, you cannot learn spells or cantrips from Xanathar's.
The thing to note is that items not dealing with leveling up can come from any source. So treasure can come from any source. If you find a spellbook, or buy a scroll, AND PAY TO SCRIBE IT IN YOUR SPELLBOOK, it can come from any source. Those free spells you get each level have to come from either PHB or your one source.
This also includes things like feats. If you choose Magic Initiate, since you gained the feat either at time of creation or during leveling up, all spells must be from PHB or your one source. Ritual Caster is odd in that the first free spells you choose must come from the PHB or your source, but after that, you can scribe any spell from any source in the book.
So no matter what source book comes out in the future, once you have settled on your +1, that is your ONLY non-PHB source for leveling up additions for the life of the character.
Note: if you decide to remake your character prior to level 5, (allowed in AL rules) you can also change your +1, but ALL off your character must change to use this source. No fair getting spells from one source at level one, and then changing your source to get different spells. You have to be consistent all the way through.
Only the last question was about rule interpretation.
The rest of the discussion is about changing the rule, because it is annoying and boring that you e.g. cannot have a race from Volos with XGtE sub classes or similar.
And for me personal I do not buy the argument that it would be too overwhelming for new player to have the option (PHB+1 could be a recommendation for new players instead). With a few players on the table you have more than PHB+1 rule books involved in any game anyways, so it also does not help the DM in any way.
PHB+1 is just annoying and also does not sell more books. It is an old rule from times where they wanted you to buy the next source book for the season. But nowadays it's just meh.
Why not forbid multi classing instead in adventures league? That would help to reduce complexity and overpowered builds. But why I cannot have an Aasimar Divine Soul Sorcerer, a Tabaxi Swashbuckler or an Oath of Conquest Goliath Paladin or similar cool combo I simply do not understand.
Not agreeing with the many explanation and flat out direct quote statements from WotC about the reasons for the +1 is not the same as not understanding.
It does make it easier on AL DMs who are already juggling drop ins they have no history with and totally new players and a pick up group getting organized.
It does lower the barrier for entry of new players both in cost and complexity and has most definitely encouraged new players to come in to play. In my last 6 months of sometimes 2x a week, there was always someone who hadn't played 5e before and at least once a month someone who never played at all.
It also makes it easier for WotC to manage change and growth across the product line to make sure any new books can be easily slotted into their "gateway/intro" system of AL. While we can say that there aren't many balance issue when spanning supplements that is entirely different from play testing and ensuring that any new book doesnt demolish balance in AL when combined oddly with all the other supplements. That is survivable for home games, but needing to house rule or eliminate something would kill AL as it started to complicate things with each new book. WotC play testing just how the new book interacts with PHB is much simpler and cleaner and faster. Even adding PHB+2 would be an exponential increase in complexity for testing.
I think they have been successful in using AL as a simpler entry point and sticking to their design ideas us smart. You can always do whatever you want in a non-AL game.