Surprise round is slang for surprised people not getting a turn during the first round of combat. That is no longer the case in 5.24, which is a massive change from 5.0, and a change that I'm not fond of implementing because it makes for some logically inexplicable results.
I know it's a slang from previous editions that usually called whenever the reference is used again incorrecty because 5E has no surprise round.
In 5E everyone gets a turn, wether surprised or not. In fact, it was officially ruled that you were surprised until the end of it.
In the revision of the core rules, surprise impact your initiative as opposed to your ability to move, act or react..
Which still has a chance of resulting in surprised creature going before others in the initiative order. I'm not too fond either.
At least you didn't get the 5.24 rules wrong this time. The last time you criticized my use of slang, you misquoted the rules. That's the equivalent of using bad grammar when correcting a grammar mistake by someone else.
Getting a turn where you aren't allowed to take any actions is the verbal equivalent of not getting a turn during the round. Unless a specific feature referred to "before the creature takes a turn in combat", the two sentences literally mean the same thing.
I like having a rules lawyer at my table. I don't like when they interrupt with stuff that doesn't effect the game, or get the rules wrong in trying to correct me.
If I tell the players to roll initiative while I am rolling the surprise attack by an unseen creature (5.0 rules), and the rules lawyer objects because the first round of combat should proceed in initiative order even though everyone except the attacker is surprised, they aren't improving the game. Waiting for everyone to roll initiative, then adding everyone to the tracker, then going through each player's turn, when they can't take any actions, before I start rolling dice doesn't add any value. It just slows down combat even more. Thus the slang use of "surprise round" is not an actual problem, as long as the rules are being followed.
At least you didn't get the 5.24 rules wrong this time. The last time you criticized my use of slang, you misquoted the rules. That's the equivalent of using bad grammar when correcting a grammar mistake by someone else.
Getting a turn where you aren't allowed to take any actions is the verbal equivalent of not getting a turn during the round. Unless a specific feature referred to "before the creature takes a turn in combat", the two sentences literally mean the same thing.
Which rules this i get wrong last time and misquoted?
Getting a turn means getting a turn period. Even a dying creature get a turn despite being unable to move, act or react, which is important because they make death saving throw at the end start of it.
You can run surprise attack by your monsters however you like at your table. Hopefully, in the same way for your players. My first comment in this thread that you also quoted was in that vein.
[..] If I tell the players to roll initiative while I am rolling the surprise attack by an unseen creature (5.0 rules), and the rules lawyer objects because the first round of combat should proceed in initiative order even though everyone except the attacker is surprised, they aren't improving the game. Waiting for everyone to roll initiative, then adding everyone to the tracker, then going through each player's turn, when they can't take any actions, before I start rolling dice doesn't add any value. It just slows down combat even more. Thus the slang use of "surprise round" is not an actual problem, as long as the rules are being followed.
Using the 2014 rules, I think following the initiative order is important because it allows some characters to have their reactions available, like casting Shield or defending themselves if their reaction permits.
[...] Even a dying creature get a turn despite being unable to move, act or react, which is important because they make death saving throw at the end of it.
Isn't it when they start their turn?
Death Saving Throw
A player character must make a Death Saving Throw (also called a Death Save) if they start their turn with 0 Hit Points. See also chapter 1 (“Damage and Healing”).
It reminds me of the Dragon Talk: Sage Advice video with the Devs talking surprise and initiative, basically relying on rolling initiative when signaling intent to attack.
But the ambush scenario where a surprised creature is unawere of an incoming attack at least in 2014 was not able to take action before the ambusher do so even if its turn in the initiative was before the ambusher, it could at best react, where in 2024 if the surprised creature's turn is before the ambusher's turn, it can act normally. .Here lies the point of contention.
Is the DM still calling for initiative when players have no idea of what's about to happen to them? Doing so inevitably will make them suspect something and may if acting first, take actions against it such as run, take cover, hide, cast a spell etc . While not calling for initiative make sure to not alert them but get ahead of initiqtive. It comes down to this, do DM want players to know initiative occur or force some action before it ?
Perhaps guidelines on how to handle such situation differently will be found in the Dungeon Master Guide. I wound't be surprised if the Player's Handbook reference to using Dexterity score instead of rolling Initiative may be part of guideline suggestions, acting as a sort of passive initiative.
Initiative: Sometimes a DM might have combatants use their Initiative scores instead of rolling Initiative.
It reminds me of the Dragon Talk: Sage Advice video with the Devs talking surprise and initiative, basically relying on rolling initiative when signaling intent to attack.
But the ambush scenario where a surprised creature is unawere of an incoming attack at least in 2014 was not able to take action before the ambusher do so even if its turn in the initiative was before the ambusher, it could at best react, where in 2024 if the surprised creature's turn is before the ambusher's turn, it can act normally. .Here lies the point of contention.
Is the DM still calling for initiative when players have no idea of what's about to happen to them? Doing so inevitably will make them suspect something and may if acting first, take actions against it such as run, take cover, hide, cast a spell etc . While not calling for initiative make sure to not alert them but get ahead of initiqtive. It comes down to this, do DM want players to know initiative occur or force some action before it ?
Perhaps guidelines on how to handle such situation differently will be found in the Dungeon Master Guide. I wound't be surprised if the Player's Handbook reference to using Dexterity score instead of rolling Initiative may be part of guideline suggestions, acting as a sort of passive initiative.
Initiative: Sometimes a DM might have combatants use their Initiative scores instead of rolling Initiative.
Equally as important - if the players want to force action before the NPC's are aware - I think they should have the opportunity to do so IF it makes sense in the given scenario.
the surprise round was logical, when applied correctly. 5.24 eliminated the surprise, and clearly doesn't allow players to "ready an action", otherwise they could have just left the surprise rules unchanged.
5E never had a surprised round. The revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react.
This isn't the only different between 5.0 and 5.24, thus my previous comments about calling out someone for using slang and then getting the rules wrong.
In my other comment I specifically mentioned "unless the characters have an ability that could be used". So my example was clearly based upon characters who don't have any reactions that can impact whatever is happening during the "surprise round".
Neither edition has a perfect surprise system. I don't like creating home brew game mechanics. It can be very confusing for new players, as well as for those who are playing at multiple tables, each with a very long list of complicated home brew rules. I don't like the new edition's treatment of surprise, but will it be a big enough problem to require a rule change?
Pantagruel is right here. Ready is an action you can take on your turn. Turns don't exist out of initiative order.
You wouldn't allow a player to say, "When somebody walks into the tavern, I'll XX?" That sounds like a ready action outside of combat.
I would resolve it as an attempted ambush, with normal initiative rolls, to see whether you accomplish the thing you were preparing to do.
Why would you have to roll initiative for standing up and saying hello?
I wouldn't give a character a free combat action, no. The enemy should have a chance to act first, and initiative is the system used for determining that order. Otherwise why would a player not just walk around saying that they've perpetually "readied" an attack or whatever?
Saying hello is not a combat action.
By the new rules it can be, as an influence action
We're heading into pedantic territory here but an action taken during combat =/= an action that necessarily triggers combat. One can use the influence action during combat, but its use is not necessarily a trigger for initiative. Additionally, the influence action (as well as the hide and utilize actions) says nothing about it being used on "your turn", whereas the ready action does.
First of all, where does it say that? (I mean that literally, I can't find a definition other than: "Prepare to take an action in response to a trigger you define")
Second of all, my point was that I feel like Wotc is muddling the line between combat and non-combat encounters. It was not that 'since influence can effect combat, someone who talks before combat should go last', or any other nonsense.
Additionally, (responding to the person before me) I would say the sniper can take the ready action, as it fits the definition exactly. It could get a little broken if the players use it in every encounter, but as long as they're not metagaming and your ambushes are actually surprising, then they shouldn't get to use this often.
It's in the 2024 rules glossary:
Ready [Action]
You take the Ready action to wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you take this action on your turn, which lets you act by taking a Reaction before the start of your next turn.
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it. Examples include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the zombie steps next to me, I move away.”
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.
When you Ready a spell, you cast it as normal (expending any resources used to cast it) but hold its energy, which you release with your Reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of an action, and holding on to the spell’s magic requires Concentration, which you can maintain up to the start of your next turn. If your Concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect.
Pantagruel is right here. Ready is an action you can take on your turn. Turns don't exist out of initiative order.
You wouldn't allow a player to say, "When somebody walks into the tavern, I'll XX?" That sounds like a ready action outside of combat.
I would resolve it as an attempted ambush, with normal initiative rolls, to see whether you accomplish the thing you were preparing to do.
Why would you have to roll initiative for standing up and saying hello?
I wouldn't give a character a free combat action, no. The enemy should have a chance to act first, and initiative is the system used for determining that order. Otherwise why would a player not just walk around saying that they've perpetually "readied" an attack or whatever?
Saying hello is not a combat action.
By the new rules it can be, as an influence action
We're heading into pedantic territory here but an action taken during combat =/= an action that necessarily triggers combat. One can use the influence action during combat, but its use is not necessarily a trigger for initiative. Additionally, the influence action (as well as the hide and utilize actions) says nothing about it being used on "your turn", whereas the ready action does.
First of all, where does it say that? (I mean that literally, I can't find a definition other than: "Prepare to take an action in response to a trigger you define")
Second of all, my point was that I feel like Wotc is muddling the line between combat and non-combat encounters. It was not that 'since influence can effect combat, someone who talks before combat should go last', or any other nonsense.
Additionally, (responding to the person before me) I would say the sniper can take the ready action, as it fits the definition exactly. It could get a little broken if the players use it in every encounter, but as long as they're not metagaming and your ambushes are actually surprising, then they shouldn't get to use this often.
It's in the 2024 rules glossary:
Ready [Action]
You take the Ready action to wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you take this action on your turn, which lets you act by taking a Reaction before the start of your next turn.
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it. Examples include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the zombie steps next to me, I move away.”
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.
When you Ready a spell, you cast it as normal (expending any resources used to cast it) but hold its energy, which you release with your Reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of an action, and holding on to the spell’s magic requires Concentration, which you can maintain up to the start of your next turn. If your Concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect.
GUYS
I think this is too many quotes
We're talking about whether using the Ready Action or just waiting for something to happen is forcing combat. So it could go on a bit.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
the surprise round was logical, when applied correctly. 5.24 eliminated the surprise, and clearly doesn't allow players to "ready an action", otherwise they could have just left the surprise rules unchanged.
5E never had a surprised round. The revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react.
This isn't the only different between 5.0 and 5.24, thus my previous comments about calling out someone for using slang and then getting the rules wrong.
May be you misunderstand what i meant by that if you don't agree that the revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react, then what other effect you think there is other than this?
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Invisible: Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
The question is; Since the sharpshooter is readying his action to shoot the target that tries to attack or cast a spell, and he remains hidden before it; would he be able to fire off a shot before combat starts? How would you go about it?
No. Ready is a combat action, it cannot be used outside of combat.
Come on now. You sure you want to go down that road? There are a ton of things that PCs do that can be classified as combat actions that are perfectly fine outside of combat.
True ... but rules wise ... Ready specifically refers to a prepared action during combat that has a specific trigger that then uses your reaction.
Characters out of combat say what they are doing and something they say may be similar to the "Ready action" but it isn't a ready action.
So, RAW, neither PCs nor NPCs make attacks out of combat. Readying an attack action means that the situation is already considered combat.
In terms of running this scenario, I always have both the players and NPCs roll initiative at the beginning of the interaction and THEN resolve the events that occur using initiative since in a context like this even a conversation might be considered combat. In addition, it also makes sense both narratively and rules wise if the sharpshooter then uses their ready action if one of the characters chooses to do something provocative (attack or cast a spell for example) on their turn.
This also avoids the problem of everyone rolling initiative and the characters having a turn before the sharp shooter. This can be resolved narratively as the sharpshooter just being slow and if that is what the DM thinks is possible then there is no issue but if the DM thinks the sharpshooter is likely to go first then the DM can give the sharpshooter advantage on initiative. If the DM thinks the chances are extremely small that the sharpshooter not go first, the DM could assign an initiative of 25 or 30 to almost guarantee the sharpshooter going first. The other approach is to start initiative before active combat and allow the sharpshooter to have used the ready action.
All of those options can work narratively and still fall within RAW but the rules themselves don't cover making attacks out of combat (though a DM can certainly choose to do it that way if they want to).
Here is the thing we all understand the rules - they have been explained ad infinitum in this thread for anyone that didn't recall the exact wording. Now we know.
Most tables I have played at and all games I have DM'd the accepted mechanic is slightly different - 99% of the time initiative is rolled and combat starts - there is that 1% when npc's or pc's narratively have put significant time and effort into an ambush. Irrespective of the rule - I am going to give them that 1/2 round of combat free then initiative order kicks in. In my opinion this fosters creativity on the part of both the players and the dm.
To each their own, as long as you make the same call consistently throughout the campaign - its not an issue.
I would note that handling surprise as "the side with surprise may start combat with a readied action" instead of existing surprise rules has some benefits, in that it means you get your early action as expected, but due to the limitations on readying, it's generally going to be a single weapon attack or a cantrip, not a full round of attacking.
the surprise round was logical, when applied correctly. 5.24 eliminated the surprise, and clearly doesn't allow players to "ready an action", otherwise they could have just left the surprise rules unchanged.
5E never had a surprised round. The revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react.
This isn't the only different between 5.0 and 5.24, thus my previous comments about calling out someone for using slang and then getting the rules wrong.
May be you misunderstand what i meant by that if you don't agree that the revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react, then what other effect you think there is other than this?
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Invisible: Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
In 5.0 a sniper could potentially take an action, bonus action, and move. Then do so again before the surprised opponent could do anything other than take a reaction. That is vastly different than just changing the way initiative is rolled. In 5.24 the sniper could at most win initiative and take their one turn before the surprised opponent gets to take an action, bonus action, and movement. This is a vast change in the power of surprise. And that doesn't even touch upon the main discussion about the surprised opponent taking their turn before the sniper gets their first shot off.
Which brings us back to you criticizing someone who is more accurately describing the RAW changes because they used slang to do so. I have freely admitted that my use of slang didn't provide a full detailed accounting of every nuance of the 5.0 rules. But the point remains as true now as it was in the original post. You remain fixated on trying to prove you are right without actually trying to refute the substance of my statement.
I don't know if it's been posted before, but there is an entire 40 minutes episode of Dragon Talk Podcast where Jeremy Crawford explains how initiating combat and surprise works (in 2014 rules, the specifics of Surprise are different in 2024):
The short of it is: you can't "take a Ready Action" outside of initiative. If you initiate combat, that doesn't mean you "attack first". It means you started your attack first, but someone with higher initiative might still beat you to the punch. If the enemy didn't notice you, because you were hidden or they were distracted, then the way the game represents you going first is by making the enemy Surprised.
Imagine a Duel between two cowboys. It would be pretty lame if at the start if the duel you could just say "I take the ready action and shoot when they reach for their revolver" and thus guarantee you shoot first. No, that's what initiative is for. As soon as one of them declared they want to shoot, initiative is rolled to see who actually gets to shoot first.
Imagine a Duel between two cowboys. It would be pretty lame if at the start if the duel you could just say "I take the ready action and shoot when they reach for their revolver" and thus guarantee you shoot first. No, that's what initiative is for. As soon as one of them declared they want to shoot, initiative is rolled to see who actually gets to shoot first.
But it is a valid thought that if both of them had that ready action, then it's a duel.
If one of them says "I ready an action to shoot when they go for their gun", and the other says "I ready an action to shoot them when they turn around to walk 10 paces" then the one who's cheating at the duel will likely get that one shot off first.
If one of them says "I ready an action to shoot when they go for their gun", and the other says "I ready an action to shoot them when they turn around to walk 10 paces" then the one who's cheating at the duel will likely get that one shot off first.
I think that is a great example for the Surprised condition. If one of them says "I want to cheat and attack early, when their back is turned" then it would make sense that the other would be surprised. Especially with 2024 Surprise rules that works great, because it still gives the other an opportunity to still go first, but the cheater is simply much more likely to go first because the other rolls Initiative with disadvantage. If the cheater still loses the Initiative, you could say that the other heard them spin around, heard them draw their gun from the holster, and because they were such a nimble duelist they managed to still shoot first despite being disadvantaged.
Let me supplement that by saying that I'm not saying "If X happens I will do Y" doesn't exist outside of combat. I'm saying that such a statement outside of initiative does not constitute a Ready Action and therefore does not get resolved by the rules of the Ready Action. It gets resolved like any other declaration of intent outside of combat. But as soon as that declaration of intent includes a combat action, such as "If X happens then I will shoot", then the moment your "I will shoot" is supposed to be resolved we transition into initiative order, and that includes determining surprise and rolling initiative before anything else can happen.
In 5.0 a sniper could potentially take an action, bonus action, and move. Then do so again before the surprised opponent could do anything other than take a reaction. That is vastly different than just changing the way initiative is rolled. In 5.24 the sniper could at most win initiative and take their one turn before the surprised opponent gets to take an action, bonus action, and movement. This is a vast change in the power of surprise. And that doesn't even touch upon the main discussion about the surprised opponent taking their turn before the sniper gets their first shot off.
Which brings us back to you criticizing someone who is more accurately describing the RAW changes because they used slang to do so. I have freely admitted that my use of slang didn't provide a full detailed accounting of every nuance of the 5.0 rules. But the point remains as true now as it was in the original post. You remain fixated on trying to prove you are right without actually trying to refute the substance of my statement.
I did't meant to come out as criticizing someone, sorry if you felt that way. You may have mesinterpretated what i was saying as i wasn't comparing Surprise 2014 vs 2024, but the effect on creature surprised vs not in 2024. When comparing the effect of surprise between the two ruleset i totally agree with you it's a vast change of power of surprise.
CORE RULES 2014
Ambusher: —
Surprised: You can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.
CORE RULES 2024
Ambusher: You have Advantage on the Initiative roll.
Surprised: You have Disadvantage on the Initiative roll.
As DM you can allow it. If you do though, you may expect your PCs to try later too.
I would have everyone roll initiative and let the sharpershooter take the Ready action on it's turn if he wish so.
Since it's Hiding, the shapshooter would have Invisible condition and the effect of Surprise, rolling Initiative with Advantage, and anyone surprised by combat starting could have Disadvantage on their Initiative roll as well.
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Invisible: Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
The new surprise rules are going to be difficult for me to embrace. The sniper with the held action and the 1 PC drawing a weapon or starting to cast a spell should be rolling initiative with everyone else being surprised. But with the new system, Some random character with a lucky roll and good initiative boost will usually go first. That isn't a terrible thing in a game themed as a Western, where quick draw and high perception are key, but it is a bit awkward for someone to fail the perception check to see the surprise attack still act before the surprise attack.
That just means he acts faster than the surprise attack. But still doesn't know about the sniper, who will have advantage on his attack roll when it happens.
Also, if you rule that the sniper has a Ready Action it can act as a reaction before the triggering action. And then act in his regular turn?
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At least you didn't get the 5.24 rules wrong this time. The last time you criticized my use of slang, you misquoted the rules. That's the equivalent of using bad grammar when correcting a grammar mistake by someone else.
Getting a turn where you aren't allowed to take any actions is the verbal equivalent of not getting a turn during the round. Unless a specific feature referred to "before the creature takes a turn in combat", the two sentences literally mean the same thing.
I like having a rules lawyer at my table. I don't like when they interrupt with stuff that doesn't effect the game, or get the rules wrong in trying to correct me.
If I tell the players to roll initiative while I am rolling the surprise attack by an unseen creature (5.0 rules), and the rules lawyer objects because the first round of combat should proceed in initiative order even though everyone except the attacker is surprised, they aren't improving the game. Waiting for everyone to roll initiative, then adding everyone to the tracker, then going through each player's turn, when they can't take any actions, before I start rolling dice doesn't add any value. It just slows down combat even more. Thus the slang use of "surprise round" is not an actual problem, as long as the rules are being followed.
Which rules this i get wrong last time and misquoted?
Getting a turn means getting a turn period. Even a dying creature get a turn despite being unable to move, act or react, which is important because they make death saving throw at the
endstart of it.You can run surprise attack by your monsters however you like at your table. Hopefully, in the same way for your players. My first comment in this thread that you also quoted was in that vein.
Using the 2014 rules, I think following the initiative order is important because it allows some characters to have their reactions available, like casting Shield or defending themselves if their reaction permits.
Isn't it when they start their turn?
It reminds me of the Dragon Talk: Sage Advice video with the Devs talking surprise and initiative, basically relying on rolling initiative when signaling intent to attack.
But the ambush scenario where a surprised creature is unawere of an incoming attack at least in 2014 was not able to take action before the ambusher do so even if its turn in the initiative was before the ambusher, it could at best react, where in 2024 if the surprised creature's turn is before the ambusher's turn, it can act normally. .Here lies the point of contention.
Is the DM still calling for initiative when players have no idea of what's about to happen to them? Doing so inevitably will make them suspect something and may if acting first, take actions against it such as run, take cover, hide, cast a spell etc . While not calling for initiative make sure to not alert them but get ahead of initiqtive. It comes down to this, do DM want players to know initiative occur or force some action before it ?
Perhaps guidelines on how to handle such situation differently will be found in the Dungeon Master Guide. I wound't be surprised if the Player's Handbook reference to using Dexterity score instead of rolling Initiative may be part of guideline suggestions, acting as a sort of passive initiative.
@tarodnet Yeah i meant start of it
Equally as important - if the players want to force action before the NPC's are aware - I think they should have the opportunity to do so IF it makes sense in the given scenario.
This isn't the only different between 5.0 and 5.24, thus my previous comments about calling out someone for using slang and then getting the rules wrong.
In my other comment I specifically mentioned "unless the characters have an ability that could be used". So my example was clearly based upon characters who don't have any reactions that can impact whatever is happening during the "surprise round".
Neither edition has a perfect surprise system. I don't like creating home brew game mechanics. It can be very confusing for new players, as well as for those who are playing at multiple tables, each with a very long list of complicated home brew rules. I don't like the new edition's treatment of surprise, but will it be a big enough problem to require a rule change?
GUYS
I think this is too many quotes
We're talking about whether using the Ready Action or just waiting for something to happen is forcing combat. So it could go on a bit.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
May be you misunderstand what i meant by that if you don't agree that the revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react, then what other effect you think there is other than this?
True ... but rules wise ... Ready specifically refers to a prepared action during combat that has a specific trigger that then uses your reaction.
Characters out of combat say what they are doing and something they say may be similar to the "Ready action" but it isn't a ready action.
So, RAW, neither PCs nor NPCs make attacks out of combat. Readying an attack action means that the situation is already considered combat.
In terms of running this scenario, I always have both the players and NPCs roll initiative at the beginning of the interaction and THEN resolve the events that occur using initiative since in a context like this even a conversation might be considered combat. In addition, it also makes sense both narratively and rules wise if the sharpshooter then uses their ready action if one of the characters chooses to do something provocative (attack or cast a spell for example) on their turn.
This also avoids the problem of everyone rolling initiative and the characters having a turn before the sharp shooter. This can be resolved narratively as the sharpshooter just being slow and if that is what the DM thinks is possible then there is no issue but if the DM thinks the sharpshooter is likely to go first then the DM can give the sharpshooter advantage on initiative. If the DM thinks the chances are extremely small that the sharpshooter not go first, the DM could assign an initiative of 25 or 30 to almost guarantee the sharpshooter going first. The other approach is to start initiative before active combat and allow the sharpshooter to have used the ready action.
All of those options can work narratively and still fall within RAW but the rules themselves don't cover making attacks out of combat (though a DM can certainly choose to do it that way if they want to).
Here is the thing we all understand the rules - they have been explained ad infinitum in this thread for anyone that didn't recall the exact wording. Now we know.
Most tables I have played at and all games I have DM'd the accepted mechanic is slightly different - 99% of the time initiative is rolled and combat starts - there is that 1% when npc's or pc's narratively have put significant time and effort into an ambush. Irrespective of the rule - I am going to give them that 1/2 round of combat free then initiative order kicks in. In my opinion this fosters creativity on the part of both the players and the dm.
To each their own, as long as you make the same call consistently throughout the campaign - its not an issue.
I would note that handling surprise as "the side with surprise may start combat with a readied action" instead of existing surprise rules has some benefits, in that it means you get your early action as expected, but due to the limitations on readying, it's generally going to be a single weapon attack or a cantrip, not a full round of attacking.
In 5.0 a sniper could potentially take an action, bonus action, and move. Then do so again before the surprised opponent could do anything other than take a reaction. That is vastly different than just changing the way initiative is rolled. In 5.24 the sniper could at most win initiative and take their one turn before the surprised opponent gets to take an action, bonus action, and movement. This is a vast change in the power of surprise. And that doesn't even touch upon the main discussion about the surprised opponent taking their turn before the sniper gets their first shot off.
Which brings us back to you criticizing someone who is more accurately describing the RAW changes because they used slang to do so. I have freely admitted that my use of slang didn't provide a full detailed accounting of every nuance of the 5.0 rules. But the point remains as true now as it was in the original post. You remain fixated on trying to prove you are right without actually trying to refute the substance of my statement.
I don't know if it's been posted before, but there is an entire 40 minutes episode of Dragon Talk Podcast where Jeremy Crawford explains how initiating combat and surprise works (in 2014 rules, the specifics of Surprise are different in 2024):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vS9efeyCHTc
The short of it is: you can't "take a Ready Action" outside of initiative. If you initiate combat, that doesn't mean you "attack first". It means you started your attack first, but someone with higher initiative might still beat you to the punch. If the enemy didn't notice you, because you were hidden or they were distracted, then the way the game represents you going first is by making the enemy Surprised.
Imagine a Duel between two cowboys. It would be pretty lame if at the start if the duel you could just say "I take the ready action and shoot when they reach for their revolver" and thus guarantee you shoot first. No, that's what initiative is for. As soon as one of them declared they want to shoot, initiative is rolled to see who actually gets to shoot first.
But it is a valid thought that if both of them had that ready action, then it's a duel.
If one of them says "I ready an action to shoot when they go for their gun", and the other says "I ready an action to shoot them when they turn around to walk 10 paces" then the one who's cheating at the duel will likely get that one shot off first.
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If both of them had the ready action as I described it, they would be deadlocked. Both would be waiting for the other to start.
I think that is a great example for the Surprised condition. If one of them says "I want to cheat and attack early, when their back is turned" then it would make sense that the other would be surprised. Especially with 2024 Surprise rules that works great, because it still gives the other an opportunity to still go first, but the cheater is simply much more likely to go first because the other rolls Initiative with disadvantage. If the cheater still loses the Initiative, you could say that the other heard them spin around, heard them draw their gun from the holster, and because they were such a nimble duelist they managed to still shoot first despite being disadvantaged.
Let me supplement that by saying that I'm not saying "If X happens I will do Y" doesn't exist outside of combat. I'm saying that such a statement outside of initiative does not constitute a Ready Action and therefore does not get resolved by the rules of the Ready Action. It gets resolved like any other declaration of intent outside of combat. But as soon as that declaration of intent includes a combat action, such as "If X happens then I will shoot", then the moment your "I will shoot" is supposed to be resolved we transition into initiative order, and that includes determining surprise and rolling initiative before anything else can happen.
I did't meant to come out as criticizing someone, sorry if you felt that way. You may have mesinterpretated what i was saying as i wasn't comparing Surprise 2014 vs 2024, but the effect on creature surprised vs not in 2024. When comparing the effect of surprise between the two ruleset i totally agree with you it's a vast change of power of surprise.
That just means he acts faster than the surprise attack. But still doesn't know about the sniper, who will have advantage on his attack roll when it happens.
Also, if you rule that the sniper has a Ready Action it can act as a reaction before the triggering action. And then act in his regular turn?