I'm running a one-shot soon. The setting takes place in my world's equivalent of fantasy wild-west, so guns are quite prevalent. Let's say the party is currently surrounded by a couple dozen bandits along with the one-shot's Bad Guy. One of the bandits is holding a child as a hostage saying the boss wants to talk to them, and if the players agree to talk to the boss, the boss will appear. The boss does a small monologue and challenges them to a duel, and if they accept, they will release the child. (Despite their threats, they will not kill the child. They're evil, but not monsters.)
Among the bandits is a single sharpshooter, who has orders to shoot any creature who acts too rashly. If somebody draws a gun or starts to cast a spell on the Bad Guy before the duel, the sharpshooter will shoot the one attacking the moment they draw their weapon.
The question is; Since the sharpshooter is readying his action to shoot the target that tries to attack or cast a spell, and he remains hidden before it; would he be able to fire off a shot before combat starts? How would you go about it?
If you deem it that way, then yes. You could make a perception roll on the sharpshooter to see if they see the person draw or begin a spell, then take action from there.
100% yes if you've said that's what's happening - "My boys on the roof wil lshoot anyone who makes a move!" means that the players know this is possible, and therefore there is no reason not to.
100% yes if you want to do it like that, because the BBEG planned it. Agree that perception vs sleight of hand is advised here - which is where telegraphing it lets the players make decisions and act smartly.
Only time I'd avoid it is if there's no way the players can find out about it except "oops, you got shot". If the BBEG warns them, or if there's a chance for them to spot the sniper, or if someone else runs and drops from a gunshot, then it's giving the players agency to act.
What I aim for with anything like this is that, if a player gets got by it, then the player needs to be feeling "Huh, I probably should have seen that coming" rather then "Oh, now there's a sniper on the roof, of course there is".
Essentially, this works like a trap - if it's not got any chance of being found, then it's probably going to be a feels-bad scenario for whoever falls in.
As DM you can allow it. If you do though, you may expect your PCs to try later too.
I would have everyone roll initiative and let the sharpershooter take the Ready action on it's turn if he wish so.
Since it's Hiding, the shapshooter would have Invisible condition and the effect of Surprise, rolling Initiative with Advantage, and anyone surprised by combat starting could have Disadvantage on their Initiative roll as well.
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Invisible: Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
The question is; Since the sharpshooter is readying his action to shoot the target that tries to attack or cast a spell, and he remains hidden before it; would he be able to fire off a shot before combat starts? How would you go about it?
No. Ready is a combat action, it cannot be used outside of combat.
I'm running a one-shot soon. The setting takes place in my world's equivalent of fantasy wild-west, so guns are quite prevalent. Let's say the party is currently surrounded by a couple dozen bandits along with the one-shot's Bad Guy. One of the bandits is holding a child as a hostage saying the boss wants to talk to them, and if the players agree to talk to the boss, the boss will appear. The boss does a small monologue and challenges them to a duel, and if they accept, they will release the child. (Despite their threats, they will not kill the child. They're evil, but not monsters.)
Among the bandits is a single sharpshooter, who has orders to shoot any creature who acts too rashly. If somebody draws a gun or starts to cast a spell on the Bad Guy before the duel, the sharpshooter will shoot the one attacking the moment they draw their weapon.
The question is; Since the sharpshooter is readying his action to shoot the target that tries to attack or cast a spell, and he remains hidden before it; would he be able to fire off a shot before combat starts? How would you go about it?
The way initiative works in game is there is not a surprise round. So everyone rolls initiative. The PCs would get to roll initiative at disadvantage.
This creates the biggest problem with 5e and that being combat starting before the triggering event takes place.
As DM you can allow it. If you do though, you may expect your PCs to try later too.
I would have everyone roll initiative and let the sharpershooter take the Ready action on it's turn if he wish so.
Since it's Hiding, the shapshooter would have Invisible condition and the effect of Surprise, rolling Initiative with Advantage, and anyone surprised by combat starting could have Disadvantage on their Initiative roll as well.
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Invisible: Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
The new surprise rules are going to be difficult for me to embrace. The sniper with the held action and the 1 PC drawing a weapon or starting to cast a spell should be rolling initiative with everyone else being surprised. But with the new system, Some random character with a lucky roll and good initiative boost will usually go first. That isn't a terrible thing in a game themed as a Western, where quick draw and high perception are key, but it is a bit awkward for someone to fail the perception check to see the surprise attack still act before the surprise attack.
The question is; Since the sharpshooter is readying his action to shoot the target that tries to attack or cast a spell, and he remains hidden before it; would he be able to fire off a shot before combat starts? How would you go about it?
No. Ready is a combat action, it cannot be used outside of combat.
When did combat begin?
An argument can be made that the bad guys entered combat when they held a gun to a child's head. Just because the PCs aren't attacking doesn't mean turns aren't happening. I get that we aren't supposed to think about this type of thing with the new rules, but I expect to hear the debates for a decade plus.
This creates the biggest problem with 5e and that being combat starting before the triggering event takes place.
A house rule I'm strongly considering for surprise is
Ambush: in a situation where one side is hidden before the start of combat, characters on the ambushing side cannot have an initiative lower than their stealth check, and characters on ambushed side cannot have an initiative higher than their passive perception (this replaces granting advantage/disadvantage on initiative checks). Thus, a low stealth check may allow an ambushed side to go first, because the targets noticed the ambush before it happens.
Deceptive Surprise: in a situation where a creature previously assumed non-hostile decides to attack, resolve in the same way as an ambush, but use deception and insight instead of stealth and perception.
The question is; Since the sharpshooter is readying his action to shoot the target that tries to attack or cast a spell, and he remains hidden before it; would he be able to fire off a shot before combat starts? How would you go about it?
No. Ready is a combat action, it cannot be used outside of combat.
Come on now. You sure you want to go down that road? There are a ton of things that PCs do that can be classified as combat actions that are perfectly fine outside of combat.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
This creates the biggest problem with 5e and that being combat starting before the triggering event takes place.
A house rule I'm strongly considering for surprise is
Ambush: in a situation where one side is hidden before the start of combat, characters on the ambushing side cannot have an initiative lower than their stealth check, and characters on ambushed side cannot have an initiative higher than their passive perception (this replaces granting advantage/disadvantage on initiative checks). Thus, a low stealth check may allow an ambushed side to go first, because the targets noticed the ambush before it happens.
Deceptive Surprise: in a situation where a creature previously assumed non-hostile decides to attack, resolve in the same way as an ambush, but use deception and insight instead of stealth and perception.
Keep in mind that any class that has expertise (Rogue, ranger, bard) will potentially have a really high passive perception and it may as a result not be worth the houserule.
Keep in mind that any class that has expertise (Rogue, ranger, bard) will potentially have a really high passive perception and it may as a result not be worth the houserule.
So? Those characters probably don't get ambushed. The point isn't to make an ambusher always go first, the point is that when they fail to go first, it's clear why they fail.
Keep in mind that any class that has expertise (Rogue, ranger, bard) will potentially have a really high passive perception and it may as a result not be worth the houserule.
So? Those characters probably don't get ambushed. The point isn't to make an ambusher always go first, the point is that when they fail to go first, it's clear why they fail.
What I mean is that there are so many ways to get expertise in perception and if you have advantage that adds +5 to it. Basically you are implementing a house rule that gives you the same (Or potentially worse) results than the default rules would. MOst Rogues I know for example have a passive perception of like 20ish or higher. (Granted that was in 2024, and Alert is not as high for most of the game). But that would mean the Rogue is always going to spot an ambush, which isn't true under the default rules.
Pantagruel is right here. Ready is an action you can take on your turn. Turns don't exist out of initiative order.
You wouldn't allow a player to say, "When somebody walks into the tavern, I'll XX?" That sounds like a ready action outside of combat.
I would resolve it as an attempted ambush, with normal initiative rolls, to see whether you accomplish the thing you were preparing to do.
Why would you have to roll initiative for standing up and saying hello?
I wouldn't give a character a free combat action, no. The enemy should have a chance to act first, and initiative is the system used for determining that order. Otherwise why would a player not just walk around saying that they've perpetually "readied" an attack or whatever?
I'm running a one-shot soon. The setting takes place in my world's equivalent of fantasy wild-west, so guns are quite prevalent. Let's say the party is currently surrounded by a couple dozen bandits along with the one-shot's Bad Guy. One of the bandits is holding a child as a hostage saying the boss wants to talk to them, and if the players agree to talk to the boss, the boss will appear. The boss does a small monologue and challenges them to a duel, and if they accept, they will release the child. (Despite their threats, they will not kill the child. They're evil, but not monsters.)
Among the bandits is a single sharpshooter, who has orders to shoot any creature who acts too rashly. If somebody draws a gun or starts to cast a spell on the Bad Guy before the duel, the sharpshooter will shoot the one attacking the moment they draw their weapon.
The question is; Since the sharpshooter is readying his action to shoot the target that tries to attack or cast a spell, and he remains hidden before it; would he be able to fire off a shot before combat starts? How would you go about it?
If you deem it that way, then yes.
You could make a perception roll on the sharpshooter to see if they see the person draw or begin a spell, then take action from there.
100% yes if you've said that's what's happening - "My boys on the roof wil lshoot anyone who makes a move!" means that the players know this is possible, and therefore there is no reason not to.
100% yes if you want to do it like that, because the BBEG planned it. Agree that perception vs sleight of hand is advised here - which is where telegraphing it lets the players make decisions and act smartly.
Only time I'd avoid it is if there's no way the players can find out about it except "oops, you got shot". If the BBEG warns them, or if there's a chance for them to spot the sniper, or if someone else runs and drops from a gunshot, then it's giving the players agency to act.
What I aim for with anything like this is that, if a player gets got by it, then the player needs to be feeling "Huh, I probably should have seen that coming" rather then "Oh, now there's a sniper on the roof, of course there is".
Essentially, this works like a trap - if it's not got any chance of being found, then it's probably going to be a feels-bad scenario for whoever falls in.
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Thank you for the response! I've only held a couple of one-shots being a new dm and all that, so this is actually really insightful as well!
As DM you can allow it. If you do though, you may expect your PCs to try later too.
I would have everyone roll initiative and let the sharpershooter take the Ready action on it's turn if he wish so.
Since it's Hiding, the shapshooter would have Invisible condition and the effect of Surprise, rolling Initiative with Advantage, and anyone surprised by combat starting could have Disadvantage on their Initiative roll as well.
No. Ready is a combat action, it cannot be used outside of combat.
The way initiative works in game is there is not a surprise round. So everyone rolls initiative. The PCs would get to roll initiative at disadvantage.
This creates the biggest problem with 5e and that being combat starting before the triggering event takes place.
The new surprise rules are going to be difficult for me to embrace. The sniper with the held action and the 1 PC drawing a weapon or starting to cast a spell should be rolling initiative with everyone else being surprised. But with the new system, Some random character with a lucky roll and good initiative boost will usually go first. That isn't a terrible thing in a game themed as a Western, where quick draw and high perception are key, but it is a bit awkward for someone to fail the perception check to see the surprise attack still act before the surprise attack.
When did combat begin?
An argument can be made that the bad guys entered combat when they held a gun to a child's head. Just because the PCs aren't attacking doesn't mean turns aren't happening. I get that we aren't supposed to think about this type of thing with the new rules, but I expect to hear the debates for a decade plus.
A house rule I'm strongly considering for surprise is
Ambush: in a situation where one side is hidden before the start of combat, characters on the ambushing side cannot have an initiative lower than their stealth check, and characters on ambushed side cannot have an initiative higher than their passive perception (this replaces granting advantage/disadvantage on initiative checks). Thus, a low stealth check may allow an ambushed side to go first, because the targets noticed the ambush before it happens.
Deceptive Surprise: in a situation where a creature previously assumed non-hostile decides to attack, resolve in the same way as an ambush, but use deception and insight instead of stealth and perception.
Come on now. You sure you want to go down that road? There are a ton of things that PCs do that can be classified as combat actions that are perfectly fine outside of combat.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
In the case of things that are specifically about interacting with the initiative system, such as readied actions, absolutely.
Pantagruel is right here. Ready is an action you can take on your turn. Turns don't exist out of initiative order.
Keep in mind that any class that has expertise (Rogue, ranger, bard) will potentially have a really high passive perception and it may as a result not be worth the houserule.
So? Those characters probably don't get ambushed. The point isn't to make an ambusher always go first, the point is that when they fail to go first, it's clear why they fail.
What I mean is that there are so many ways to get expertise in perception and if you have advantage that adds +5 to it. Basically you are implementing a house rule that gives you the same (Or potentially worse) results than the default rules would. MOst Rogues I know for example have a passive perception of like 20ish or higher. (Granted that was in 2024, and Alert is not as high for most of the game). But that would mean the Rogue is always going to spot an ambush, which isn't true under the default rules.
You wouldn't allow a player to say, "When somebody walks into the tavern, I'll XX?" That sounds like a ready action outside of combat.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I would resolve it as an attempted ambush, with normal initiative rolls, to see whether you accomplish the thing you were preparing to do.
Why would you have to roll initiative for standing up and saying hello?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I wouldn't give a character a free combat action, no. The enemy should have a chance to act first, and initiative is the system used for determining that order. Otherwise why would a player not just walk around saying that they've perpetually "readied" an attack or whatever?
Saying hello is not a combat action.