I'd reason that the game engine is intended to work as a structure to help tell a story. If the game rules prevent a sniper who is planning an ambush or assassination or reaction from doing the thing they are trying to do, then the game rules are failing and need amending by me, the DM.
I would not say "Hey, you've done something which triggers something so everyone roll initiative, ok, Monk you're first ,what do you do in response to something which hasn't happened because the sniper rolled poorly?"
Instead I'd say that the sniper makes their attack, then I'd have initiative rolled, and I would pick up initiative from there. The shot being fired is the catalyst for the initiative rolling. Usually the catalyst is the enemies approaching, or the party preparing to fight, but in a successfully sprung ambush, the first thing you are aware of is the opening attack.
In short, if the game rules for initiative and surprise ruin the surprise, then I won't use them.
"Ok Cleric, you rolled high, what do you do?" "Do I see anything? >Perception 6<" "No, they are still talking" "Hmm... I cast sanctuary on myself, I feel like something's going to happen"
Surprise gone, because of game mechanics. Not in my game!
Among the bandits is a single sharpshooter, who has orders to shoot any creature who acts too rashly. If somebody draws a gun or starts to cast a spell on the Bad Guy before the duel, the sharpshooter will shoot the one attacking the moment they draw their weapon.
The question is; Since the sharpshooter is readying his action to shoot the target that tries to attack or cast a spell, and he remains hidden before it; would he be able to fire off a shot before combat starts? How would you go about it?
TL;DR Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant rolls Initiative; they make a Dexterity check that determines their place in the Initiative order.
From what I understand, if the sharpshooter is hidden when combat starts, "the DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised" and that's indeed the case here. If some combatants are surprised, we should follow the surprise rules. The Sage Advice Compendium has a good explanation for this kind of situation.
Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round?
The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” in the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” in the Player’s Handbook).
To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares.
If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised.
In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
This is for the 2014 rules, but it’s pretty much the same for the 2024 rules, with the exception of the new Invisible condition and the way surprise affects the Initiative roll.
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
I'm running a one-shot soon. The setting takes place in my world's equivalent of fantasy wild-west, so guns are quite prevalent. Let's say the party is currently surrounded by a couple dozen bandits along with the one-shot's Bad Guy. One of the bandits is holding a child as a hostage saying the boss wants to talk to them, and if the players agree to talk to the boss, the boss will appear. The boss does a small monologue and challenges them to a duel, and if they accept, they will release the child. (Despite their threats, they will not kill the child. They're evil, but not monsters.)
Among the bandits is a single sharpshooter, who has orders to shoot any creature who acts too rashly. If somebody draws a gun or starts to cast a spell on the Bad Guy before the duel, the sharpshooter will shoot the one attacking the moment they draw their weapon.
The question is; Since the sharpshooter is readying his action to shoot the target that tries to attack or cast a spell, and he remains hidden before it; would he be able to fire off a shot before combat starts? How would you go about it?
If the target doesn't sense the hidden character, then *I* would give them a surprise round. Very likely they will spend that action making their attack.
I get your angle. Just be careful about stretching the rules. As a player, I would approach every locked door and claim I'm readying an attack so as to bypass initiative, for instance. That's certainly not RAI.
the surprise round was logical, when applied correctly. 5.24 eliminated the surprise, and clearly doesn't allow players to "ready an action", otherwise they could have just left the surprise rules unchanged.
It's logically silly that an unseen sniper would not get off a free shot before "surprised" people had a chance to react to the shot. But any rules change would clearly fall into the category of homebrew. it will be very difficult for me to actually resist making a homebrew system for surprise.
the surprise round was logical, when applied correctly. 5.24 eliminated the surprise, and clearly doesn't allow players to "ready an action", otherwise they could have just left the surprise rules unchanged.
5E never had a surprised round. The revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react.
5E never had a surprised round. The revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react.
It never had something called a surprise round, but if you look at 2014 surprise, it includes the following sentence
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
and if you look at 2024 surprise it instead specifies
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
(plus the rules for being hidden grant advantage). In practice this usually results in the ambusher going first, unless victim has quite high initiative, but it doesn't offer the possibility of going twice before the victim goes once, which was possible under the old rules.
As for why this was changed: at the pacing of 5e combat, 2014 surprise was just way too powerful, turning a reasonable encounter into either a roflstomp (if the PCs got surprise) or a likely TPK (if the monsters got surprise).
the surprise round was logical, when applied correctly. 5.24 eliminated the surprise, and clearly doesn't allow players to "ready an action", otherwise they could have just left the surprise rules unchanged.
5E never had a surprised round. The revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react.
Surprise round is slang for surprised people not getting a turn during the first round of combat. That is no longer the case in 5.24, which is a massive change from 5.0, and a change that I'm not fond of implementing because it makes for some logically inexplicable results.
I'm thinking about only allowing "surprised" creatures to take the dodge action during the first round of combat. It still cuts down on the impact of the old surprise rules, but doesn't have players attacking an unseen attacker before the attack causes their presence to be known.
Pantagruel is right here. Ready is an action you can take on your turn. Turns don't exist out of initiative order.
You wouldn't allow a player to say, "When somebody walks into the tavern, I'll XX?" That sounds like a ready action outside of combat.
I would resolve it as an attempted ambush, with normal initiative rolls, to see whether you accomplish the thing you were preparing to do.
Why would you have to roll initiative for standing up and saying hello?
I wouldn't give a character a free combat action, no. The enemy should have a chance to act first, and initiative is the system used for determining that order. Otherwise why would a player not just walk around saying that they've perpetually "readied" an attack or whatever?
Saying hello is not a combat action.
By the new rules it can be, as an influence action
Surprise round is slang for surprised people not getting a turn during the first round of combat. That is no longer the case in 5.24, which is a massive change from 5.0, and a change that I'm not fond of implementing because it makes for some logically inexplicable results.
I know it's a slang from previous editions that usually called whenever the reference is used again incorrecty because 5E has no surprise round.
In 5E everyone gets a turn, wether surprised or not. In fact, it was officially ruled that you were surprised until the end of it.
In the revision of the core rules, surprise impact your initiative as opposed to your ability to move, act or react..
Which still has a chance of resulting in surprised creature going before others in the initiative order. I'm not too fond either.
Simplest approach I use for surprise (2014 version) which keeps the surprise itself is:
1: Shot's fired. Roll initiative.
2: Initiative order is established. Anyone who rolled higher than the sniper has already had a go, in which they were surprised so did nothing. Anyone after is still surprised, excepting alert etc. who will get to act immediately, validating the feat.
3: Top of initiative, anyone who rolled higher than the sniper will go before they go again.
Works pretty smoothly, and prevents me telling people who roll high that they have a turn in which nothing has happened to prompt the turn. Alert still works, but if you roll high initiative and have alert then they mostly contradict one another - but that's because you rolled high and get to do stuff first anyway.
By new rules if someone who is surprised by a gunshot rolls high enough they can be surprised by the unshot before it happens, prompting DM explanations of seeing something glint or some such, which may ruin a "where's the sniper" encounter.
I wouldn't be surprised to see guidelines in the Dungeon Master Guide on how to handle Initiative differently, especially during ambush where the ambusher should go first.
I wouldn't be surprised to see guidelines in the Dungeon Master Guide on how to handle Initiative differently, especially during ambush where the ambusher should go first.
Probably a good shout - I feel Surprise is meant to be a sudden start to a visible combat, EG the guy in the coat throws it back to draw a sword, roll for initiative. Fast people can still go first, so it works for that. But when the first sign is, theoretically, damage, the mechanics fall down slightly. Same if a sorcerer used subtle spell to attack someone, it would be an ambush and not a surprise, because the first sign of a combat is "Boom".
This is a fix to a problem that did not exist. And while "Surprise Round" may have technically been slang the mechanics are pretty universally accepted.
There is no way I will not let either the PC's or NPC's get a round in if there is a well planned ambush. Then we roll initiative and carry on.
The creativity some groups put into setting up a good ambush is amazing - not going to mess with that. The group I DM'd for last night lured a Giant away from its village and got a free round exactly that way.
That is in large measure the beauty of D&D - WOTC can put whatever they want in a book - you are free to use it or not at your table.
Simplest approach I use for surprise (2014 version) which keeps the surprise itself is:
1: Shot's fired. Roll initiative.
2: Initiative order is established. Anyone who rolled higher than the sniper has already had a go, in which they were surprised so did nothing. Anyone after is still surprised, excepting alert etc. who will get to act immediately, validating the feat.
3: Top of initiative, anyone who rolled higher than the sniper will go before they go again.
Works pretty smoothly, and prevents me telling people who roll high that they have a turn in which nothing has happened to prompt the turn. Alert still works, but if you roll high initiative and have alert then they mostly contradict one another - but that's because you rolled high and get to do stuff first anyway.
By new rules if someone who is surprised by a gunshot rolls high enough they can be surprised by the unshot before it happens, prompting DM explanations of seeing something glint or some such, which may ruin a "where's the sniper" encounter.
This is exactly how the surprise round works in my game, with the exception the first round ignores initiative order for every character who is surprised, and then starts from the top, for the next turn. Alert bypasses this, but weirdly, have only had one player take that particular feat.
The exception of being outside the turn order, is if someone is very fast (rolls a very high initiative beating out the ambushers, who will have advantage on said initiative) they will have a reaction available to them.
Pantagruel is right here. Ready is an action you can take on your turn. Turns don't exist out of initiative order.
You wouldn't allow a player to say, "When somebody walks into the tavern, I'll XX?" That sounds like a ready action outside of combat.
I would resolve it as an attempted ambush, with normal initiative rolls, to see whether you accomplish the thing you were preparing to do.
Why would you have to roll initiative for standing up and saying hello?
I wouldn't give a character a free combat action, no. The enemy should have a chance to act first, and initiative is the system used for determining that order. Otherwise why would a player not just walk around saying that they've perpetually "readied" an attack or whatever?
Saying hello is not a combat action.
By the new rules it can be, as an influence action
We're heading into pedantic territory here but an action taken during combat =/= an action that necessarily triggers combat. One can use the influence action during combat, but its use is not necessarily a trigger for initiative. Additionally, the influence action (as well as the hide and utilize actions) says nothing about it being used on "your turn", whereas the ready action does.
First of all, where does it say that? (I mean that literally, I can't find a definition other than: "Prepare to take an action in response to a trigger you define")
Second of all, my point was that I feel like Wotc is muddling the line between combat and non-combat encounters. It was not that 'since influence can effect combat, someone who talks before combat should go last', or any other nonsense.
Additionally, (responding to the person before me) I would say the sniper can take the ready action, as it fits the definition exactly. It could get a little broken if the players use it in every encounter, but as long as they're not metagaming and your ambushes are actually surprising, then they shouldn't get to use this often.
Some of you are saying that it is always a combat situation and you should always roll initiative.
So if there was an ambusher planning to shoot somebody when they appear, roll initiative.
But if the ambusher loses initiative, nothing has happened to trigger combat.
If the party doesn't detect the attacker, what do they do? They are unaware of the shooter why would they jump into combat mode?
That's why I like my house rule of allowing replacing initiative with stealth, and limiting initiative by perception -- if you roll well enough on stealth to not be spotted, you'll go first.
Some of you are saying that it is always a combat situation and you should always roll initiative.
So if there was an ambusher planning to shoot somebody when they appear, roll initiative.
But if the ambusher loses initiative, nothing has happened to trigger combat.
If the party doesn't detect the attacker, what do they do? They are unaware of the shooter why would they jump into combat mode?
How I would do it is have everyone roll initiative the moment the ambusher shoots, not when they plan to shoot.
Then, I would establish surprise.
So if the ambusher shoots, but rolls low on the initiative, it wouldn't matter because in many cases, the target would be surprised and not be able to attack in the 2014 rules, or roll with disadvantage on the initiative for the 2024 rules.
If someone says they ready an action with a plan to attack, that, to me, means nothing mechanically until they take actual action against the target.
Initiative order is normally unimportant for that action, so one wouldn't bother to roll. If for some reason it was important, I'd roll initiative.
I'd reason that the game engine is intended to work as a structure to help tell a story. If the game rules prevent a sniper who is planning an ambush or assassination or reaction from doing the thing they are trying to do, then the game rules are failing and need amending by me, the DM.
I would not say "Hey, you've done something which triggers something so everyone roll initiative, ok, Monk you're first ,what do you do in response to something which hasn't happened because the sniper rolled poorly?"
Instead I'd say that the sniper makes their attack, then I'd have initiative rolled, and I would pick up initiative from there. The shot being fired is the catalyst for the initiative rolling. Usually the catalyst is the enemies approaching, or the party preparing to fight, but in a successfully sprung ambush, the first thing you are aware of is the opening attack.
In short, if the game rules for initiative and surprise ruin the surprise, then I won't use them.
"Ok Cleric, you rolled high, what do you do?"
"Do I see anything? >Perception 6<"
"No, they are still talking"
"Hmm... I cast sanctuary on myself, I feel like something's going to happen"
Surprise gone, because of game mechanics. Not in my game!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
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TL;DR Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant rolls Initiative; they make a Dexterity check that determines their place in the Initiative order.
From what I understand, if the sharpshooter is hidden when combat starts, "the DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised" and that's indeed the case here. If some combatants are surprised, we should follow the surprise rules. The Sage Advice Compendium has a good explanation for this kind of situation.
This is for the 2014 rules, but it’s pretty much the same for the 2024 rules, with the exception of the new Invisible condition and the way surprise affects the Initiative roll.
If the target doesn't sense the hidden character, then *I* would give them a surprise round. Very likely they will spend that action making their attack.
the surprise round was logical, when applied correctly. 5.24 eliminated the surprise, and clearly doesn't allow players to "ready an action", otherwise they could have just left the surprise rules unchanged.
It's logically silly that an unseen sniper would not get off a free shot before "surprised" people had a chance to react to the shot. But any rules change would clearly fall into the category of homebrew. it will be very difficult for me to actually resist making a homebrew system for surprise.
5E never had a surprised round. The revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react.
It never had something called a surprise round, but if you look at 2014 surprise, it includes the following sentence
and if you look at 2024 surprise it instead specifies
(plus the rules for being hidden grant advantage). In practice this usually results in the ambusher going first, unless victim has quite high initiative, but it doesn't offer the possibility of going twice before the victim goes once, which was possible under the old rules.
As for why this was changed: at the pacing of 5e combat, 2014 surprise was just way too powerful, turning a reasonable encounter into either a roflstomp (if the PCs got surprise) or a likely TPK (if the monsters got surprise).
That's right, it wasn't called that way like in previous edition, even though there was rules for those circumstances.
There's anytime you have the Invisible condition that has an effect of surprise, not just hidden;
Surprise round is slang for surprised people not getting a turn during the first round of combat. That is no longer the case in 5.24, which is a massive change from 5.0, and a change that I'm not fond of implementing because it makes for some logically inexplicable results.
I'm thinking about only allowing "surprised" creatures to take the dodge action during the first round of combat. It still cuts down on the impact of the old surprise rules, but doesn't have players attacking an unseen attacker before the attack causes their presence to be known.
By the new rules it can be, as an influence action
I know it's a slang from previous editions that usually called whenever the reference is used again incorrecty because 5E has no surprise round.
In 5E everyone gets a turn, wether surprised or not. In fact, it was officially ruled that you were surprised until the end of it.
In the revision of the core rules, surprise impact your initiative as opposed to your ability to move, act or react..
Which still has a chance of resulting in surprised creature going before others in the initiative order. I'm not too fond either.
Simplest approach I use for surprise (2014 version) which keeps the surprise itself is:
1: Shot's fired. Roll initiative.
2: Initiative order is established. Anyone who rolled higher than the sniper has already had a go, in which they were surprised so did nothing. Anyone after is still surprised, excepting alert etc. who will get to act immediately, validating the feat.
3: Top of initiative, anyone who rolled higher than the sniper will go before they go again.
Works pretty smoothly, and prevents me telling people who roll high that they have a turn in which nothing has happened to prompt the turn. Alert still works, but if you roll high initiative and have alert then they mostly contradict one another - but that's because you rolled high and get to do stuff first anyway.
By new rules if someone who is surprised by a gunshot rolls high enough they can be surprised by the unshot before it happens, prompting DM explanations of seeing something glint or some such, which may ruin a "where's the sniper" encounter.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
I wouldn't be surprised to see guidelines in the Dungeon Master Guide on how to handle Initiative differently, especially during ambush where the ambusher should go first.
Probably a good shout - I feel Surprise is meant to be a sudden start to a visible combat, EG the guy in the coat throws it back to draw a sword, roll for initiative. Fast people can still go first, so it works for that. But when the first sign is, theoretically, damage, the mechanics fall down slightly. Same if a sorcerer used subtle spell to attack someone, it would be an ambush and not a surprise, because the first sign of a combat is "Boom".
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
This is a fix to a problem that did not exist. And while "Surprise Round" may have technically been slang the mechanics are pretty universally accepted.
There is no way I will not let either the PC's or NPC's get a round in if there is a well planned ambush. Then we roll initiative and carry on.
The creativity some groups put into setting up a good ambush is amazing - not going to mess with that. The group I DM'd for last night lured a Giant away from its village and got a free round exactly that way.
That is in large measure the beauty of D&D - WOTC can put whatever they want in a book - you are free to use it or not at your table.
This is exactly how the surprise round works in my game, with the exception the first round ignores initiative order for every character who is surprised, and then starts from the top, for the next turn. Alert bypasses this, but weirdly, have only had one player take that particular feat.
The exception of being outside the turn order, is if someone is very fast (rolls a very high initiative beating out the ambushers, who will have advantage on said initiative) they will have a reaction available to them.
This of course is just how I run it, in detail.
First of all, where does it say that? (I mean that literally, I can't find a definition other than: "Prepare to take an action in response to a trigger you define")
Second of all, my point was that I feel like Wotc is muddling the line between combat and non-combat encounters. It was not that 'since influence can effect combat, someone who talks before combat should go last', or any other nonsense.
Additionally, (responding to the person before me) I would say the sniper can take the ready action, as it fits the definition exactly. It could get a little broken if the players use it in every encounter, but as long as they're not metagaming and your ambushes are actually surprising, then they shouldn't get to use this often.
Some of you are saying that it is always a combat situation and you should always roll initiative.
So if there was an ambusher planning to shoot somebody when they appear, roll initiative.
But if the ambusher loses initiative, nothing has happened to trigger combat.
If the party doesn't detect the attacker, what do they do? They are unaware of the shooter why would they jump into combat mode?
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That's why I like my house rule of allowing replacing initiative with stealth, and limiting initiative by perception -- if you roll well enough on stealth to not be spotted, you'll go first.
How I would do it is have everyone roll initiative the moment the ambusher shoots, not when they plan to shoot.
Then, I would establish surprise.
So if the ambusher shoots, but rolls low on the initiative, it wouldn't matter because in many cases, the target would be surprised and not be able to attack in the 2014 rules, or roll with disadvantage on the initiative for the 2024 rules.
If someone says they ready an action with a plan to attack, that, to me, means nothing mechanically until they take actual action against the target.
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