I would note that handling surprise as "the side with surprise may start combat with a readied action" instead of existing surprise rules has some benefits, in that it means you get your early action as expected, but due to the limitations on readying, it's generally going to be a single weapon attack or a cantrip, not a full round of attacking.
the surprise round was logical, when applied correctly. 5.24 eliminated the surprise, and clearly doesn't allow players to "ready an action", otherwise they could have just left the surprise rules unchanged.
5E never had a surprised round. The revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react.
This isn't the only different between 5.0 and 5.24, thus my previous comments about calling out someone for using slang and then getting the rules wrong.
May be you misunderstand what i meant by that if you don't agree that the revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react, then what other effect you think there is other than this?
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Invisible: Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
In 5.0 a sniper could potentially take an action, bonus action, and move. Then do so again before the surprised opponent could do anything other than take a reaction. That is vastly different than just changing the way initiative is rolled. In 5.24 the sniper could at most win initiative and take their one turn before the surprised opponent gets to take an action, bonus action, and movement. This is a vast change in the power of surprise. And that doesn't even touch upon the main discussion about the surprised opponent taking their turn before the sniper gets their first shot off.
Which brings us back to you criticizing someone who is more accurately describing the RAW changes because they used slang to do so. I have freely admitted that my use of slang didn't provide a full detailed accounting of every nuance of the 5.0 rules. But the point remains as true now as it was in the original post. You remain fixated on trying to prove you are right without actually trying to refute the substance of my statement.
I don't know if it's been posted before, but there is an entire 40 minutes episode of Dragon Talk Podcast where Jeremy Crawford explains how initiating combat and surprise works (in 2014 rules, the specifics of Surprise are different in 2024):
The short of it is: you can't "take a Ready Action" outside of initiative. If you initiate combat, that doesn't mean you "attack first". It means you started your attack first, but someone with higher initiative might still beat you to the punch. If the enemy didn't notice you, because you were hidden or they were distracted, then the way the game represents you going first is by making the enemy Surprised.
Imagine a Duel between two cowboys. It would be pretty lame if at the start if the duel you could just say "I take the ready action and shoot when they reach for their revolver" and thus guarantee you shoot first. No, that's what initiative is for. As soon as one of them declared they want to shoot, initiative is rolled to see who actually gets to shoot first.
Imagine a Duel between two cowboys. It would be pretty lame if at the start if the duel you could just say "I take the ready action and shoot when they reach for their revolver" and thus guarantee you shoot first. No, that's what initiative is for. As soon as one of them declared they want to shoot, initiative is rolled to see who actually gets to shoot first.
But it is a valid thought that if both of them had that ready action, then it's a duel.
If one of them says "I ready an action to shoot when they go for their gun", and the other says "I ready an action to shoot them when they turn around to walk 10 paces" then the one who's cheating at the duel will likely get that one shot off first.
If one of them says "I ready an action to shoot when they go for their gun", and the other says "I ready an action to shoot them when they turn around to walk 10 paces" then the one who's cheating at the duel will likely get that one shot off first.
I think that is a great example for the Surprised condition. If one of them says "I want to cheat and attack early, when their back is turned" then it would make sense that the other would be surprised. Especially with 2024 Surprise rules that works great, because it still gives the other an opportunity to still go first, but the cheater is simply much more likely to go first because the other rolls Initiative with disadvantage. If the cheater still loses the Initiative, you could say that the other heard them spin around, heard them draw their gun from the holster, and because they were such a nimble duelist they managed to still shoot first despite being disadvantaged.
Let me supplement that by saying that I'm not saying "If X happens I will do Y" doesn't exist outside of combat. I'm saying that such a statement outside of initiative does not constitute a Ready Action and therefore does not get resolved by the rules of the Ready Action. It gets resolved like any other declaration of intent outside of combat. But as soon as that declaration of intent includes a combat action, such as "If X happens then I will shoot", then the moment your "I will shoot" is supposed to be resolved we transition into initiative order, and that includes determining surprise and rolling initiative before anything else can happen.
In 5.0 a sniper could potentially take an action, bonus action, and move. Then do so again before the surprised opponent could do anything other than take a reaction. That is vastly different than just changing the way initiative is rolled. In 5.24 the sniper could at most win initiative and take their one turn before the surprised opponent gets to take an action, bonus action, and movement. This is a vast change in the power of surprise. And that doesn't even touch upon the main discussion about the surprised opponent taking their turn before the sniper gets their first shot off.
Which brings us back to you criticizing someone who is more accurately describing the RAW changes because they used slang to do so. I have freely admitted that my use of slang didn't provide a full detailed accounting of every nuance of the 5.0 rules. But the point remains as true now as it was in the original post. You remain fixated on trying to prove you are right without actually trying to refute the substance of my statement.
I did't meant to come out as criticizing someone, sorry if you felt that way. You may have mesinterpretated what i was saying as i wasn't comparing Surprise 2014 vs 2024, but the effect on creature surprised vs not in 2024. When comparing the effect of surprise between the two ruleset i totally agree with you it's a vast change of power of surprise.
CORE RULES 2014
Ambusher: —
Surprised: You can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.
CORE RULES 2024
Ambusher: You have Advantage on the Initiative roll.
Surprised: You have Disadvantage on the Initiative roll.
As DM you can allow it. If you do though, you may expect your PCs to try later too.
I would have everyone roll initiative and let the sharpershooter take the Ready action on it's turn if he wish so.
Since it's Hiding, the shapshooter would have Invisible condition and the effect of Surprise, rolling Initiative with Advantage, and anyone surprised by combat starting could have Disadvantage on their Initiative roll as well.
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Invisible: Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
The new surprise rules are going to be difficult for me to embrace. The sniper with the held action and the 1 PC drawing a weapon or starting to cast a spell should be rolling initiative with everyone else being surprised. But with the new system, Some random character with a lucky roll and good initiative boost will usually go first. That isn't a terrible thing in a game themed as a Western, where quick draw and high perception are key, but it is a bit awkward for someone to fail the perception check to see the surprise attack still act before the surprise attack.
That just means he acts faster than the surprise attack. But still doesn't know about the sniper, who will have advantage on his attack roll when it happens.
Also, if you rule that the sniper has a Ready Action it can act as a reaction before the triggering action. And then act in his regular turn?
That just means he acts faster than the surprise attack. But still doesn't know about the sniper, who will have advantage on his attack roll when it happens.
I agree that they don't know about the sniper specifically, but they should definitely know they are being ambushed. They should be like "I heard something! This isn't good!" and prepare themselves to fight. They have no targets, because every target is Hidden, but they might take the Dodge action, run behind cover (although they won't necessarily know which cover points the right direction), or even take the Ready Action themselves ("If something attacks us, I shoot back" - which should trigger after the ambusher's attack is resolved).
What shouldn't happen (imo) is that the ambushed creature with a really lucky high Initiative roll (despite disadvantage) gets punished for their high roll by losing their turn in combat. Imagine if you are a player, your party gets ambushed, you roll initiative with disadvantage, you get lucky and still go first in the initiative order, and then the DM says "Oh, no, all you can do on your turn is pick your nose because technically you don't know yet that combat started", while your allies who rolled last are allowed to attack the enemies that turn after they revealed themselves.
What shouldn't happen (imo) is that the ambushed creature with a really lucky high Initiative roll (despite disadvantage) gets punished for their high roll by losing their turn in combat. Imagine if you are a player, your party gets ambushed, you roll initiative with disadvantage, you get lucky and still go first in the initiative order, and then the DM says "Oh, no, all you can do on your turn is pick your nose because technically you don't know yet that combat started", while your allies who rolled last are allowed to attack the enemies that turn after they revealed themselves.
So this is where the held action would work incredibly well - you just have to work around the trigger. For example, the sniper is holding an action to shoot if anyone approaches the hostage. The cleric steps forward, and there is a bang (roll attack), the cleric takes X damage or the shot pings off his armour, and everyone rolls initiative. Then you rule that the held action went off at initiative count 1 million, and initiative rolls from there.
Regarding "They should absolutely know they are being ambushed", that is a failed ambush. If they are ambushing to kill, then the first hint of the ambush is the opening salvo of arrows/bullets/whatever. You should absolutely not say "You think you're about to be ambushed, what do you do".
An alternative, which I just thought of and think would work quite well here, would be "Everyone give me a perception roll", which the DM then uses for initiative. The ambushers have their stealth check with advantage (for taking time to set up) as their roll. So the ambushers set up and roll an 18 for stealth. Then the party come in and roll perception, and the Monk rolls a 19, the cleric a 16, and the barbarian a 3. You declare we're going into turns, and the Monk is first. The Monk gets the first hint - "You think you see someone in the trees ahead, drawing a bow and aiming at you, what do you do?", and they do their actions. Then the ambush goes off, with them making their attacks as a group (easy for the DM to work with, use individual rolls if you want to), and then the combat rolls through in this order.
Initiative as it naturally is represents their speed to action, but in an ambush, the speed you notice something is going on is key. The barbarian will be slow on the uptake with a roll of a 3 - they will realise it's an ambush only once the attack has happened and their friends are attacking.
I actually like this - I will try it in my campaign next time there's an ambush!
Regarding "They should absolutely know they are being ambushed", that is a failed ambush. If they are ambushing to kill, then the first hint of the ambush is the opening salvo of arrows/bullets/whatever. You should absolutely not say "You think you're about to be ambushed, what do you do".
I don't think it's a "failed ambush". I think it adds degrees of success / degrees of failure.
You sneak up on the enemy, you're hidden, and you go first in initiative? Perfectly executed ambush!
You sneak up on the enemy, you're hidden, but 1 out of the 4 enemies goes before you? Almost perfectly executed ambush. You're still hidden to all of them, you still go before most of them, but 1 guy was able to take cover. From a narrative point of view that can still mean that the first hint of the ambush was the opening salvo, but that the one enemy who beat the odds and rolled a very high initiative heard the salvo flying and was so quick on his feet that he managed to get in a dodge action (for example).
You sneak up on the enemy, you're hidden, but all enemies go before you (very unlikely if they roll with disadvantage)? Badly executed ambush, but at least you're still hidden to all of them. From a narrative point of view you did a good job sneaking up on them or sneakily lying in wait, but made some kind of noise when you drew your ammunition or when you stood up from cover or when you cranked that crossbow, giving the enemies at least a chance to go "INCOMING! TAKE COVER!" and drop/dodge/etc before the arrow hits.
You fail to sneak up on them and aren't hidden? That's a completely failed ambush.
I like these degrees a lot more than the binary "Either I snuck up on them and get a guaranteed free attack or I didn't."
With your suggestion you basically try to achieve something similar, but instead of tying it to Initiative (DEX) you tie it to Perception (WIS). That's fair as a houserule, I guess. You're essentially trying to solve the problem that in some cases DEX isn't realistically the best measure of initiative, and you are solving one of those instances. Not really worth it, in my opinion, but I don't see an issue with it either.
Regarding "They should absolutely know they are being ambushed", that is a failed ambush. If they are ambushing to kill, then the first hint of the ambush is the opening salvo of arrows/bullets/whatever. You should absolutely not say "You think you're about to be ambushed, what do you do".
I don't think it's a "failed ambush". I think it adds degrees of success / degrees of failure.
You sneak up on the enemy, you're hidden, and you go first in initiative? Perfectly executed ambush!
You sneak up on the enemy, you're hidden, but 1 out of the 4 enemies goes before you? Almost perfectly executed ambush. You're still hidden to all of them, you still go before most of them, but 1 guy was able to take cover. From a narrative point of view that can still mean that the first hint of the ambush was the opening salvo, but that the one enemy who beat the odds and rolled a very high initiative heard the salvo flying and was so quick on his feat that he managed to get in a dodge action (for example).
You sneak up on the enemy, you're hidden, but all enemies go before you (very unlikely if they roll with disadvantage)? Badly executed ambush, but at least you're still hidden to all of them. From a narrative point of view you did a good job sneaking up on them or sneakily lying in wait, but made some kind of noise when you drew your ammunition or when you stood up from cover or when you cranked that crossbow, giving the enemies at least a chance to go "INCOMING! TAKE COVER!" and drop/dodge/etc before the arrow hits.
You fail to sneak up on them and aren't hidden? That's a completely failed ambush.
I like these degrees a lot more than the binary "Either I snuck up on them and get a guaranteed free attack or I didn't."
With your suggestion you basically try to achieve something similar, but instead of tying it to Initiative (DEX) you tie it to Perception (WIS). That's fair as a houserule, I guess. You're essentially trying to solve the problem that in some cases DEX isn't realistically the best measure of initiative, and you are solving one of those instances. Not really worth it, in my opinion, but I don't see an issue with it either.
Just a thought about the second bullet point ("1 out of the 4 enemies goes before you"). What if we use the default rule for initiative?
Initiative
Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant rolls Initiative; they make a Dexterity check that determines their place in the Initiative order. The DM rolls for monsters. For a group of identical creatures, the DM makes a single roll, so each member of the group has the same Initiative.
I rule that way, but I'm not sure if keeping that rule along with the new surprise mechanic might make things a bit unbalanced when dealing with several identical creatures. Or maybe it's not so much unbalanced as it is a bit unrealistic.
As I said, it's just a random thought in my head after reading your great post!
I rule that way, but I'm not sure if keeping that rule along with the new surprise mechanic might make things a bit unbalanced when dealing with several identical creatures. Or maybe it's not so much unbalanced as it is a bit unrealistic.
That's a good point. I hadn't considered that multiple creatures of the same type will either all go first or all not go first. That's indeed annoying. As a DM I might in the case of an ambush consider splitting the creatures into groups or even individuals (if they are not more than 3), just to make the ambush more interesting.
A DM could always decide to use Initiative Score instead if it want to ensure monsters likely don't act before the ambushing party.
Initiative: Sometimes a DM might have combatants use their Initiative scores instead of rolling Initiative. Your Initiative score equals 10 plus your Dexterity modifier. If you have Advantage on Initiative rolls, increase your Initiative score by 5. If you have Disadvantage on those rolls, decrease that score by 5. See also chapter 1 (“Combat”).
I rule that way, but I'm not sure if keeping that rule along with the new surprise mechanic might make things a bit unbalanced when dealing with several identical creatures. Or maybe it's not so much unbalanced as it is a bit unrealistic.
That's a good point. I hadn't considered that multiple creatures of the same type will either all go first or all not go first. That's indeed annoying. As a DM I might in the case of an ambush consider splitting the creatures into groups or even individuals (if they are not more than 3), just to make the ambush more interesting.
Pantagruel is right here. Ready is an action you can take on your turn. Turns don't exist out of initiative order.
You wouldn't allow a player to say, "When somebody walks into the tavern, I'll XX?" That sounds like a ready action outside of combat.
I would resolve it as an attempted ambush, with normal initiative rolls, to see whether you accomplish the thing you were preparing to do.
Why would you have to roll initiative for standing up and saying hello?
I wouldn't give a character a free combat action, no. The enemy should have a chance to act first, and initiative is the system used for determining that order. Otherwise why would a player not just walk around saying that they've perpetually "readied" an attack or whatever?
Saying hello is not a combat action.
By the new rules it can be, as an influence action
We're heading into pedantic territory here but an action taken during combat =/= an action that necessarily triggers combat. One can use the influence action during combat, but its use is not necessarily a trigger for initiative. Additionally, the influence action (as well as the hide and utilize actions) says nothing about it being used on "your turn", whereas the ready action does.
First of all, where does it say that? (I mean that literally, I can't find a definition other than: "Prepare to take an action in response to a trigger you define")
Second of all, my point was that I feel like Wotc is muddling the line between combat and non-combat encounters. It was not that 'since influence can effect combat, someone who talks before combat should go last', or any other nonsense.
Additionally, (responding to the person before me) I would say the sniper can take the ready action, as it fits the definition exactly. It could get a little broken if the players use it in every encounter, but as long as they're not metagaming and your ambushes are actually surprising, then they shouldn't get to use this often.
It's in the 2024 rules glossary:
Ready [Action]
You take the Ready action to wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you take this action on your turn, which lets you act by taking a Reaction before the start of your next turn.
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it. Examples include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the zombie steps next to me, I move away.”
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.
When you Ready a spell, you cast it as normal (expending any resources used to cast it) but hold its energy, which you release with your Reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of an action, and holding on to the spell’s magic requires Concentration, which you can maintain up to the start of your next turn. If your Concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect.
Yeah, that's like saying "you can't bust down that door unless you're in combat, so you have to lockpick it."
I personally would just respond "I punch Bob in the face, initiating combat. Can I bust the door down now?"
So, if you really feel like it, you can just say "I initiate combat by punching my friend in the face" and then have everyone take the Ready action right before you open the door to a bad guy lair. Just because turns aren't taken out of combat doesn't mean you can't take actions out of combat.
Yeah, that's like saying "you can't bust down that door unless you're in combat, so you have to lockpick it."
A DM may or may not allow the Attack Action outside of combat, but that doesn't mean you can't do a kick outside of combat. It just means that that the player can't insist that the exact wording of the Attack Action in combat is used for this out-of-combat scenario.
You can still state your intent to break down the door, and the DM will decide what's necessary to do so, and how long it will take. For example, kicking down a door outside of combat may be an Athletics skill check, and it might also take longer than 6 seconds if that's what the DM decides. Outside of combat, things are simply more free-form than inside of combat.
Combat rules and combat actions are written to deal with the second-to-second bookkeeping of actions in a turn-based but concurrent setting from multiple actors when timing really matters. These rules make combat possible, but are of course not without their flaws. Trying to take a combat action outside of combat in order to take advantage of the minutiae of combat rules is, in my opinion, meta gaming. To me that's comparable to trying to speed up travel by saying "I'm not traveling, I'm constantly taking the Dash action".
I personally would just respond "I punch Bob in the face, initiating combat. Can I bust the door down now?"
So, if you really feel like it, you can just say "I initiate combat by punching my friend in the face" and then have everyone take the Ready action right before you open the door to a bad guy lair. Just because turns aren't taken out of combat doesn't mean you can't take actions out of combat.
Would you really do that?
First of all, the DM calls for initiative. If you say "I punch Bob in the face, initiating combat" then I, as the DM, might just say "No, we don't do PvP". If you say "Fine, I attack this rat in order to initiate combat" I might just tell you "Ok, the rat is dead, are you happy now?" without calling for initiative. The player doesn't get to just call initiative in order to meta-game. That works in Baldurs Gate 3, but at my table that would just lead to a new Session 0 where we can discuss whether we want to play the meta-game that way.
Finally, some last words on taking the Ready Action out of combat: It's not spelled out in the official rules, but Jeremy Crawford has said multiple times that you're not intended to use it that way. Once, here in 2016 on twitter and once in the in 2020 in the video I linked earlier. Let me transcribe what he said about it:
Jeremy Crawford: "It happens a few times a year, especially if I run convention games. It will not be combat and someone will talk about readying an action. Unless they press, I will almost never say anything about it and just incorporate that into my decision making about what's going on and honor the intent that they expressed."
Greg Tito: "Right, it means that they are expecting an attack and are at the ready for whatever is going to come. It doesn't mean that they will get away with that free attack."
Jeremy Crawford: "Exactly. Now, people might be wondering: why not let people ready outside of combat? A DM could certainly allow that. The reason we didn't design the game with that being one of the core assumptions is, quite honestly, we don't want that level of mechanical detail outside of combat. The Ready rule has a lot of conditions in it, not Conditions like being Grappled or Prone, what I mean is things in order for it to occur. There is quite a bit of specificity in that rule. We generally don't want that amount of specificity to be weighing upon the narrative, except for those times when it really matters and time has slowed down and slowed down so much that you are playing in 6 second increments, which is what's going on in combat. At that point, where things are heightened and it's a life or death situation, ok, then those sorts of details are great and the game is built to care about them at that point. But when you are really narrating exploration or social interaction and might have a few die rolls here and there, we generally try not to have the full weight of the rules-gorilla beating its chest on the scene. We want the scene to just move and for the DM to hear your intent and match that to a rule."
The sad thing is a simple play test would have provided a much more elegant surprise system. Rather than throw away the old rules, they could have added the new rules as a "partially surprised" situation.
The unseen ambush imposes the surprised condition upon all others. But an expected attack from something that is known to be present would follow the 2024 rules that provide advantage/disadvantage on initiative. Depending upon how much complexity is desired there could be three levels of surprise. Then a weapon of warning could reduce the level of surprise of the victim by one step.
As far as readied actions go, anything the PCs are doing the NPCs and monsters are also doing. The nice thing is giving a little nerf to spell casters who have to run around wildly gesticulating and shouting nonsense to always have an attack cantrip prepared. Which also gets rid of the silly BG3 guidance for social interactions.
Honestly, the simplest solution for surprise is "in an ambush situation, the ambushing party may start combat with a readied action, as long as readying that action would not break the surprise (for example, readying a spell with verbal components). The DM may require the readied action be one that can be held in reserve for multiple rounds." No surprise round, but the people with surprise go first, and because of the limits to what can be effectively readied, it's nowhere near as overwhelming as a 2014 surprise round.
Another solution could have been to simply allow creature initiating combat to automatically be at the top of the initiative order so it can resolve declared action. Roughly something like this:
Surprise. If you surprise any combatant by starting combat unsuspectedly, your initiative count is automatically 1 above the highest initiative roll.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I would note that handling surprise as "the side with surprise may start combat with a readied action" instead of existing surprise rules has some benefits, in that it means you get your early action as expected, but due to the limitations on readying, it's generally going to be a single weapon attack or a cantrip, not a full round of attacking.
In 5.0 a sniper could potentially take an action, bonus action, and move. Then do so again before the surprised opponent could do anything other than take a reaction. That is vastly different than just changing the way initiative is rolled. In 5.24 the sniper could at most win initiative and take their one turn before the surprised opponent gets to take an action, bonus action, and movement. This is a vast change in the power of surprise. And that doesn't even touch upon the main discussion about the surprised opponent taking their turn before the sniper gets their first shot off.
Which brings us back to you criticizing someone who is more accurately describing the RAW changes because they used slang to do so. I have freely admitted that my use of slang didn't provide a full detailed accounting of every nuance of the 5.0 rules. But the point remains as true now as it was in the original post. You remain fixated on trying to prove you are right without actually trying to refute the substance of my statement.
I don't know if it's been posted before, but there is an entire 40 minutes episode of Dragon Talk Podcast where Jeremy Crawford explains how initiating combat and surprise works (in 2014 rules, the specifics of Surprise are different in 2024):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vS9efeyCHTc
The short of it is: you can't "take a Ready Action" outside of initiative. If you initiate combat, that doesn't mean you "attack first". It means you started your attack first, but someone with higher initiative might still beat you to the punch. If the enemy didn't notice you, because you were hidden or they were distracted, then the way the game represents you going first is by making the enemy Surprised.
Imagine a Duel between two cowboys. It would be pretty lame if at the start if the duel you could just say "I take the ready action and shoot when they reach for their revolver" and thus guarantee you shoot first. No, that's what initiative is for. As soon as one of them declared they want to shoot, initiative is rolled to see who actually gets to shoot first.
But it is a valid thought that if both of them had that ready action, then it's a duel.
If one of them says "I ready an action to shoot when they go for their gun", and the other says "I ready an action to shoot them when they turn around to walk 10 paces" then the one who's cheating at the duel will likely get that one shot off first.
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If both of them had the ready action as I described it, they would be deadlocked. Both would be waiting for the other to start.
I think that is a great example for the Surprised condition. If one of them says "I want to cheat and attack early, when their back is turned" then it would make sense that the other would be surprised. Especially with 2024 Surprise rules that works great, because it still gives the other an opportunity to still go first, but the cheater is simply much more likely to go first because the other rolls Initiative with disadvantage. If the cheater still loses the Initiative, you could say that the other heard them spin around, heard them draw their gun from the holster, and because they were such a nimble duelist they managed to still shoot first despite being disadvantaged.
Let me supplement that by saying that I'm not saying "If X happens I will do Y" doesn't exist outside of combat. I'm saying that such a statement outside of initiative does not constitute a Ready Action and therefore does not get resolved by the rules of the Ready Action. It gets resolved like any other declaration of intent outside of combat. But as soon as that declaration of intent includes a combat action, such as "If X happens then I will shoot", then the moment your "I will shoot" is supposed to be resolved we transition into initiative order, and that includes determining surprise and rolling initiative before anything else can happen.
I did't meant to come out as criticizing someone, sorry if you felt that way. You may have mesinterpretated what i was saying as i wasn't comparing Surprise 2014 vs 2024, but the effect on creature surprised vs not in 2024. When comparing the effect of surprise between the two ruleset i totally agree with you it's a vast change of power of surprise.
That just means he acts faster than the surprise attack. But still doesn't know about the sniper, who will have advantage on his attack roll when it happens.
Also, if you rule that the sniper has a Ready Action it can act as a reaction before the triggering action. And then act in his regular turn?
I agree that they don't know about the sniper specifically, but they should definitely know they are being ambushed. They should be like "I heard something! This isn't good!" and prepare themselves to fight. They have no targets, because every target is Hidden, but they might take the Dodge action, run behind cover (although they won't necessarily know which cover points the right direction), or even take the Ready Action themselves ("If something attacks us, I shoot back" - which should trigger after the ambusher's attack is resolved).
What shouldn't happen (imo) is that the ambushed creature with a really lucky high Initiative roll (despite disadvantage) gets punished for their high roll by losing their turn in combat. Imagine if you are a player, your party gets ambushed, you roll initiative with disadvantage, you get lucky and still go first in the initiative order, and then the DM says "Oh, no, all you can do on your turn is pick your nose because technically you don't know yet that combat started", while your allies who rolled last are allowed to attack the enemies that turn after they revealed themselves.
So this is where the held action would work incredibly well - you just have to work around the trigger. For example, the sniper is holding an action to shoot if anyone approaches the hostage. The cleric steps forward, and there is a bang (roll attack), the cleric takes X damage or the shot pings off his armour, and everyone rolls initiative. Then you rule that the held action went off at initiative count 1 million, and initiative rolls from there.
Regarding "They should absolutely know they are being ambushed", that is a failed ambush. If they are ambushing to kill, then the first hint of the ambush is the opening salvo of arrows/bullets/whatever. You should absolutely not say "You think you're about to be ambushed, what do you do".
An alternative, which I just thought of and think would work quite well here, would be "Everyone give me a perception roll", which the DM then uses for initiative. The ambushers have their stealth check with advantage (for taking time to set up) as their roll. So the ambushers set up and roll an 18 for stealth. Then the party come in and roll perception, and the Monk rolls a 19, the cleric a 16, and the barbarian a 3. You declare we're going into turns, and the Monk is first. The Monk gets the first hint - "You think you see someone in the trees ahead, drawing a bow and aiming at you, what do you do?", and they do their actions. Then the ambush goes off, with them making their attacks as a group (easy for the DM to work with, use individual rolls if you want to), and then the combat rolls through in this order.
Initiative as it naturally is represents their speed to action, but in an ambush, the speed you notice something is going on is key. The barbarian will be slow on the uptake with a roll of a 3 - they will realise it's an ambush only once the attack has happened and their friends are attacking.
I actually like this - I will try it in my campaign next time there's an ambush!
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I don't think it's a "failed ambush". I think it adds degrees of success / degrees of failure.
I like these degrees a lot more than the binary "Either I snuck up on them and get a guaranteed free attack or I didn't."
With your suggestion you basically try to achieve something similar, but instead of tying it to Initiative (DEX) you tie it to Perception (WIS). That's fair as a houserule, I guess. You're essentially trying to solve the problem that in some cases DEX isn't realistically the best measure of initiative, and you are solving one of those instances. Not really worth it, in my opinion, but I don't see an issue with it either.
Just a thought about the second bullet point ("1 out of the 4 enemies goes before you"). What if we use the default rule for initiative?
I rule that way, but I'm not sure if keeping that rule along with the new surprise mechanic might make things a bit unbalanced when dealing with several identical creatures. Or maybe it's not so much unbalanced as it is a bit unrealistic.
As I said, it's just a random thought in my head after reading your great post!
That's a good point. I hadn't considered that multiple creatures of the same type will either all go first or all not go first. That's indeed annoying. As a DM I might in the case of an ambush consider splitting the creatures into groups or even individuals (if they are not more than 3), just to make the ambush more interesting.
A DM could always decide to use Initiative Score instead if it want to ensure monsters likely don't act before the ambushing party.
It seems more appropriate, I agree.
Yeah, that's like saying "you can't bust down that door unless you're in combat, so you have to lockpick it."
I personally would just respond "I punch Bob in the face, initiating combat. Can I bust the door down now?"
So, if you really feel like it, you can just say "I initiate combat by punching my friend in the face" and then have everyone take the Ready action right before you open the door to a bad guy lair. Just because turns aren't taken out of combat doesn't mean you can't take actions out of combat.
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A DM may or may not allow the Attack Action outside of combat, but that doesn't mean you can't do a kick outside of combat. It just means that that the player can't insist that the exact wording of the Attack Action in combat is used for this out-of-combat scenario.
You can still state your intent to break down the door, and the DM will decide what's necessary to do so, and how long it will take. For example, kicking down a door outside of combat may be an Athletics skill check, and it might also take longer than 6 seconds if that's what the DM decides. Outside of combat, things are simply more free-form than inside of combat.
Combat rules and combat actions are written to deal with the second-to-second bookkeeping of actions in a turn-based but concurrent setting from multiple actors when timing really matters. These rules make combat possible, but are of course not without their flaws. Trying to take a combat action outside of combat in order to take advantage of the minutiae of combat rules is, in my opinion, meta gaming. To me that's comparable to trying to speed up travel by saying "I'm not traveling, I'm constantly taking the Dash action".
Would you really do that?
First of all, the DM calls for initiative. If you say "I punch Bob in the face, initiating combat" then I, as the DM, might just say "No, we don't do PvP". If you say "Fine, I attack this rat in order to initiate combat" I might just tell you "Ok, the rat is dead, are you happy now?" without calling for initiative. The player doesn't get to just call initiative in order to meta-game. That works in Baldurs Gate 3, but at my table that would just lead to a new Session 0 where we can discuss whether we want to play the meta-game that way.
Finally, some last words on taking the Ready Action out of combat: It's not spelled out in the official rules, but Jeremy Crawford has said multiple times that you're not intended to use it that way. Once, here in 2016 on twitter and once in the in 2020 in the video I linked earlier. Let me transcribe what he said about it:
Sounds a classic case of surprise round, or at least partial if some but not all spotted them in time.
The sad thing is a simple play test would have provided a much more elegant surprise system. Rather than throw away the old rules, they could have added the new rules as a "partially surprised" situation.
The unseen ambush imposes the surprised condition upon all others. But an expected attack from something that is known to be present would follow the 2024 rules that provide advantage/disadvantage on initiative. Depending upon how much complexity is desired there could be three levels of surprise. Then a weapon of warning could reduce the level of surprise of the victim by one step.
As far as readied actions go, anything the PCs are doing the NPCs and monsters are also doing. The nice thing is giving a little nerf to spell casters who have to run around wildly gesticulating and shouting nonsense to always have an attack cantrip prepared. Which also gets rid of the silly BG3 guidance for social interactions.
Honestly, the simplest solution for surprise is "in an ambush situation, the ambushing party may start combat with a readied action, as long as readying that action would not break the surprise (for example, readying a spell with verbal components). The DM may require the readied action be one that can be held in reserve for multiple rounds." No surprise round, but the people with surprise go first, and because of the limits to what can be effectively readied, it's nowhere near as overwhelming as a 2014 surprise round.
Another solution could have been to simply allow creature initiating combat to automatically be at the top of the initiative order so it can resolve declared action. Roughly something like this: