Has anyone come up with a reasonable estimate for how much the Manor the characters get at the end of Chapter 1 is worth?
The module doesn't explicitly state a price, all it alludes to is that the property is at least more than Volo's original offer ( let's assume 4 PCs and therefore 400 gp).
It's also a large building that apparently used to be half business half residence. And it's in the upper middle class part of town.
I would guesstimate it would have cost Volo at least 2,000 gp. Thoughts?
If it’s before the restoration, then I’d think 2,000 dragons is well enough for the Manor. If you look at “conclusions” in chapter 4, you see that Emmek Frewn went into 1,500 GP debt. I’d assume this is from buying his own tavern “Frewn’s Brews”. Since he was outbid on Trollskull Manor, it’s within reason to think that the Manor is more than 1,500, but I’d say not too much more.
The following is the list of Guilds that could come with a hand out for fees and licensing and dues.
The Baker’s Guild wants the business to pay a licensed baker to work at the tavern or the ingredients might rot and or sour early due to mishandling. The Carpenters’, Roofers’, and Plaisterers’ Guild wants licensed guildsmen to work on the tavern to ensure that the work is long-lasting. The Cellarers’ and Plumbers Guild is required for draining the johns and for sealing the basement from water damage. The Council of Farmer-Grocers wants an additional up-front donation to adjust delivery routes to ensure that the tavern doesn’t have the slim pickings at the end of the route. The Council of Musicians, Instrument-makers, and Choristers is demanding the agency fees needed to hire quality bards and lyricists. The Dungsweepers Guild wants to be paid to remove the piles of dried animal and human waste outside the doors. They are willing to keep the stuff away from our door and onto someone else’s. The Fellowship of Carters and Coachmen is wanting an advance to keep ready coaches at our place for those too drunk to manage on their own. The Fellowship of Innkeepers says that they are willing to let us open with minimal fines, but we will have to pay the backdating already due. The Fellowship of Salters, Packers, and Joiners needs us to start buying quality crates to keep our goods in…if they even plan to arrive at all. Plus, they are charging salary for the preserving of our foodstuffs. The Fishmongers’ Fellowship wants us to buy quality food quickly, requiring important paid-for detours. Also, our size of fish is determined by the payment. Fish & Chips sucks with sardines. The Guild of Butchers wants us to show our support by buying now and buying early concerning quality sides of beef, pork, and fowl. The Guild of Chandlers and Lamplighters has a standing bill with the neighborhood to keep the streetlights lit, but there are good sweet-smelling candles for inside and then there are candles which don’t light well, don’t brighten well and don’t smell so good. We should buy the first kind. The Guild of Glassblowers, Glaziers, and Spectacle-makers is needed to fix the numerous lanterns broken by hooligans and bums living in the place. We should make a deal with the guild. They can also help out with getting glassware. The Guild of Stonecutters, Masons, Potters, and Tile-makers should definitely be contacted to right the flagstones, balance the cornerstones, fix the tile in the johns, and to purchase new serving pottery. The Guild of Trusted Pewterers and Casters will be needed to prepare any small metal objects we shall need, like drinking flagons. The Guild of Watermen will provide us with any water we need for the right price and it behooves us to make sure the water is not soured by becoming too tepid. The Jester’s Guild wants payment to cover the agent prices for quality entertainment. The Launderer’s Guild plans to make sure we have fresh table linen and napkins as well as sheets blankets and curtains and let’s not forget removing stains from the upholstery. They plan to do that so long as they are paid well. There is a shortage of washers and we want to get priority. The League of Basket-makers and Wickerworkers wants payment for all the breadbaskets they are going to sell us for the tables. The Loyal Order of Street Laborer has a deal with the neighborhood. We are going to want to keep the streets clean of debris and especially around our house and tavern. The Most Careful Order of Skilled Smiths and Metalforgers is going to be needed for any major metalwork we need done, like the oven that is so badly rusted. The Most Excellent Order of Weavers and Dyers has graciously agreed to supply us with trademarked patterns for the table-linens, sheets, curtains, uniforms, napkins, and upholstery for the tavern for a price. The Order of Cobblers and Corvisers has heard we will need uniform footwear of the style of boots for adventuring wear and shoes for quality tavern keeping and relaxation. The Order of Master Tailors, Glovers, and Mercers has agreed to style us in an up-to-date way to bring us up to fine standards so long as the fines, fees, and taxes are paid. The Scriveners’, Scribes’, and Clerks Guild has offered to handle all our licensing for a fair price. The Splendid Order of Armorers, Locksmiths, and Finesmiths is needed to replace all the locks in the home and tavern. The Stationers Guild is willing to do a nice letterhead for us for a nominal fee so those staying at the Tavern can advertise their place of residence to their contacts. We need to register with the Surveyors’, Map-, and Chart-makers’ Guild to get our tavern on the map. This also is crucial towards getting our home on the map at the Messenger’s Guild to receive incoming post. Obviously, we will need to get in good with the Vintners’, Distillers’, and Brewers’ Guild if we want to have any hope of getting any standard brands of liquor and booze. The Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors is not willing to give us any magickal protections unless we are willing to acquiesce to paying their fees for extensive coverage. And those are just the ones that come calling or that I can think of off the top of my head
He also offers them 100gp each as an initial payment with a summary amount of ten times that per party member. So a four person party equates to 4000gp. So by default, the place has to be worth more than that. And as PW mentioned, Waterdeep is kind of the crème de la crème of locales, and based on Volo's own assurances probably is at the least, worth 8000gp. Remember, the 1200gp to fix it up only accounts for the tavern part of the building, not the two and a quarter floors above.
So? In the real world, a pair of prescription glasses cost $500 and up, and yet you can get a cell phone, a marvel of modern tech, for around the same price.
In other words a manor vs. a suite of plate mail is apples to oranges.
I mean, in the real world a suit of full plate armor - back in the days they were used - would have cost a LOT. Wouldn't surprise me at all if you could buy a pretty big house for around the same price.
The DMG does have guidelines for building certain buildings, and while Tavern isn't on there other things are. The least expensive on the list are Trading Post and Guildhall, both of which cost 5000 gold to build - a manor would likely be a little bit less than that.
The list does state "noble estate with manor" for 25,000 GP, but I would say that's a lot more land and a much fancier building than what Trollskull is. That would be more like the Cassalanter Villa I would imagine, or even bigger.
Given the general opulence of North Ward I called it a Class B building which is 4000 gp per 30' square plot size + 2400 gp per 30' floor for construction. This is modified by +25% for being North Ward and +10% given it abuts Seardun St.
Now the map of Trollskull Alley shows a border for Trollskull manor is approx 80' East to west by 60' North to South. So that implies 29,333 gp for the land. The value of the building depends on what you want to do. My guys dug a second basement and added a 5th floor with extensions over the kitchen. Then they bought the buildings to the South and East demolished them and extended further - when they were done they were dead broke and owed 300,000 gp.
Note guild fees are 5% of the value of the value of the commercial percentage of the building and taxes are 2% of total value per year.
That kind of debt tends to come with problems if the local guilds, ALL OF THEM were not involved. It also comes with problems as a debt if the Guilds were not paid off in a prompt time period. That debt is to somebody and those somebodies will come looking for payment. All manner of foul things can happen to them in those conditions. Lif will be especially problematic if it thinks it's haunt is in danger. Good Luck.
How did anyone extend them that kind of line of credit?
I think your guesstimate sounds reasonable. Gold pieces are actually coins made of solid gold, so they’re worth a lot (most people use silver pieces for their everyday expenses, which means adventurers can get wealthy really fast off the gold and platinum pieces they find in some treasure hoards). Also, when you flip a house irl (buy it cheap and then fix it up) it’s usually cheaper than other comparable houses. Basically I think 2,000 gp is totally fine.
If Trollskull Manor were turned into housing, it would probably be good enough for 5-10 people at Modest lifestyle, which is probably 2-4 gp/day (lifestyle includes costs other than housing), or 60-120 gp/month. Multiplying by 100 as a reasonable estimate of rent vs sale price, a rounded figure of around 10,000 gp seems fair (tempted by a simple rule of "houses cost 1,000x the total lifestyle cost of occupants, and halve lifestyle cost").
party of 4=400gp purchase price, but lets say volo practically gave it away for the 100gp/character at a steep discount because the group saved his bestbud. so double that to 800gp. If the characters did put the 1,500gp in renovations, that's 2,300...plus something for dealing with Lif (either got rid of him or calmed him down to be useful) - so say 2,400. add the value of it being a running business vs an abandoned building so you're over 3,000.
Just looking at the DMG where a 'small estate' is 100-1,000gp, i'd say that's village price out in the boonies, so x5 for city prices (which is about that if you look at IRL small town vs NYC boroughs - not even manhattan which, imo would be seaward)...so 500-5,000 ...but i'd say the tavern is pretty large imo so at the least, on the very high end of 'small estate' if they didn't get too fancy with upgrades.
But I think it just totally depends on your group and what they did to it. For my group, that tavern is the center of the entire game, even going into madmage. they've acquired the adjacent building and turned it into a beer garden, have a fight club in the attic, drug back the mechanical beholder out of the Cellar Complex and turned it into a giant disco ball, couple hotel rooms, expanded the basement, developed their own now Waterdeep-famous fried chicken recipe using boggle oil from a Boggle they helped escape from Blue Alley - so the tavern has some renown on its own. I'd say for my group, purchase price would be well over 10,000gp.
Given the general opulence of North Ward I called it a Class B building which is 4000 gp per 30' square plot size + 2400 gp per 30' floor for construction. This is modified by +25% for being North Ward and +10% given it abuts Seardun St.
Now the map of Trollskull Alley shows a border for Trollskull manor is approx 80' East to west by 60' North to South. So that implies 29,333 gp for the land. The value of the building depends on what you want to do. My guys dug a second basement and added a 5th floor with extensions over the kitchen. Then they bought the buildings to the South and East demolished them and extended further - when they were done they were dead broke and owed 300,000 gp.
Note guild fees are 5% of the value of the value of the commercial percentage of the building and taxes are 2% of total value per year.
I think this is closes to the correct answer and is officially the answer I will use if one of my players ever bring it up. Cheers. ;)
Actually, that Candlekeep pricing appears to be from either 3E or possible AD&D with one of the supplements. Seems a bit on the steep side. If you calculate everything you owe to get it going I think we were about 1,500 GP, and true, that isn't the full value... but it is a run down tavern with no access to the upstairs for patrons. There is practically no land with it. I would put this in the generally listed 5E price range of 5,000 - 10,000 GP at the most.
Actually, that Candlekeep pricing appears to be from either 3E or possible AD&D with one of the supplements. Seems a bit on the steep side. If you calculate everything you owe to get it going I think we were about 1,500 GP, and true, that isn't the full value... but it is a run down tavern with no access to the upstairs for patrons. There is practically no land with it. I would put this in the generally listed 5E price range of 5,000 - 10,000 GP at the most.
practically no land in a metro area = hugely expensive
Has anyone come up with a reasonable estimate for how much the Manor the characters get at the end of Chapter 1 is worth?
The module doesn't explicitly state a price, all it alludes to is that the property is at least more than Volo's original offer ( let's assume 4 PCs and therefore 400 gp).
It's also a large building that apparently used to be half business half residence. And it's in the upper middle class part of town.
I would guesstimate it would have cost Volo at least 2,000 gp. Thoughts?
Power Word Skill
If it’s before the restoration, then I’d think 2,000 dragons is well enough for the Manor. If you look at “conclusions” in chapter 4, you see that Emmek Frewn went into 1,500 GP debt. I’d assume this is from buying his own tavern “Frewn’s Brews”. Since he was outbid on Trollskull Manor, it’s within reason to think that the Manor is more than 1,500, but I’d say not too much more.
The following is the list of Guilds that could come with a hand out for fees and licensing and dues.
The Baker’s Guild wants the business to pay a licensed baker to work at the tavern or the ingredients might rot and or sour early due to mishandling.
The Carpenters’, Roofers’, and Plaisterers’ Guild wants licensed guildsmen to work on the tavern to ensure that the work is long-lasting.
The Cellarers’ and Plumbers Guild is required for draining the johns and for sealing the basement from water damage.
The Council of Farmer-Grocers wants an additional up-front donation to adjust delivery routes to ensure that the tavern doesn’t have the slim pickings at the end of the route.
The Council of Musicians, Instrument-makers, and Choristers is demanding the agency fees needed to hire quality bards and lyricists.
The Dungsweepers Guild wants to be paid to remove the piles of dried animal and human waste outside the doors. They are willing to keep the stuff away from our door and onto someone else’s.
The Fellowship of Carters and Coachmen is wanting an advance to keep ready coaches at our place for those too drunk to manage on their own.
The Fellowship of Innkeepers says that they are willing to let us open with minimal fines, but we will have to pay the backdating already due.
The Fellowship of Salters, Packers, and Joiners needs us to start buying quality crates to keep our goods in…if they even plan to arrive at all. Plus, they are charging salary for the preserving of our foodstuffs.
The Fishmongers’ Fellowship wants us to buy quality food quickly, requiring important paid-for detours. Also, our size of fish is determined by the payment. Fish & Chips sucks with sardines.
The Guild of Butchers wants us to show our support by buying now and buying early concerning quality sides of beef, pork, and fowl.
The Guild of Chandlers and Lamplighters has a standing bill with the neighborhood to keep the streetlights lit, but there are good sweet-smelling candles for inside and then there are candles which don’t light well, don’t brighten well and don’t smell so good. We should buy the first kind.
The Guild of Glassblowers, Glaziers, and Spectacle-makers is needed to fix the numerous lanterns broken by hooligans and bums living in the place. We should make a deal with the guild. They can also help out with getting glassware.
The Guild of Stonecutters, Masons, Potters, and Tile-makers should definitely be contacted to right the flagstones, balance the cornerstones, fix the tile in the johns, and to purchase new serving pottery.
The Guild of Trusted Pewterers and Casters will be needed to prepare any small metal objects we shall need, like drinking flagons.
The Guild of Watermen will provide us with any water we need for the right price and it behooves us to make sure the water is not soured by becoming too tepid.
The Jester’s Guild wants payment to cover the agent prices for quality entertainment.
The Launderer’s Guild plans to make sure we have fresh table linen and napkins as well as sheets blankets and curtains and let’s not forget removing stains from the upholstery. They plan to do that so long as they are paid well. There is a shortage of washers and we want to get priority.
The League of Basket-makers and Wickerworkers wants payment for all the breadbaskets they are going to sell us for the tables.
The Loyal Order of Street Laborer has a deal with the neighborhood. We are going to want to keep the streets clean of debris and especially around our house and tavern.
The Most Careful Order of Skilled Smiths and Metalforgers is going to be needed for any major metalwork we need done, like the oven that is so badly rusted.
The Most Excellent Order of Weavers and Dyers has graciously agreed to supply us with trademarked patterns for the table-linens, sheets, curtains, uniforms, napkins, and upholstery for the tavern for a price.
The Order of Cobblers and Corvisers has heard we will need uniform footwear of the style of boots for adventuring wear and shoes for quality tavern keeping and relaxation.
The Order of Master Tailors, Glovers, and Mercers has agreed to style us in an up-to-date way to bring us up to fine standards so long as the fines, fees, and taxes are paid.
The Scriveners’, Scribes’, and Clerks Guild has offered to handle all our licensing for a fair price.
The Splendid Order of Armorers, Locksmiths, and Finesmiths is needed to replace all the locks in the home and tavern.
The Stationers Guild is willing to do a nice letterhead for us for a nominal fee so those staying at the Tavern can advertise their place of residence to their contacts.
We need to register with the Surveyors’, Map-, and Chart-makers’ Guild to get our tavern on the map. This also is crucial towards getting our home on the map at the Messenger’s Guild to receive incoming post.
Obviously, we will need to get in good with the Vintners’, Distillers’, and Brewers’ Guild if we want to have any hope of getting any standard brands of liquor and booze.
The Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors is not willing to give us any magickal protections unless we are willing to acquiesce to paying their fees for extensive coverage.
And those are just the ones that come calling or that I can think of off the top of my head
Waterdeep is like New York, so property is expensive.
It costs 1200 GP just to fix it up, so to say it was bought for any less than 20,000 GP is crazy.
He also offers them 100gp each as an initial payment with a summary amount of ten times that per party member. So a four person party equates to 4000gp. So by default, the place has to be worth more than that. And as PW mentioned, Waterdeep is kind of the crème de la crème of locales, and based on Volo's own assurances probably is at the least, worth 8000gp. Remember, the 1200gp to fix it up only accounts for the tavern part of the building, not the two and a quarter floors above.
Uh, no, he offers 10 GP each with ten times that on completion; 400 GP total. Not 4000.
We just acquired TS manor from Volo in my game.
I don't know how much it's worth, but the DM said it would cost 1,500 gp to fix it up.
A suit of plate mail costs 1500 gp..
"Not all those who wander are lost"
So? In the real world, a pair of prescription glasses cost $500 and up, and yet you can get a cell phone, a marvel of modern tech, for around the same price.
In other words a manor vs. a suite of plate mail is apples to oranges.
If I can find a manor for sale for the price of a suit of armor, I'll buy you all the apples and oranges you'd like.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I mean, in the real world a suit of full plate armor - back in the days they were used - would have cost a LOT. Wouldn't surprise me at all if you could buy a pretty big house for around the same price.
The DMG does have guidelines for building certain buildings, and while Tavern isn't on there other things are. The least expensive on the list are Trading Post and Guildhall, both of which cost 5000 gold to build - a manor would likely be a little bit less than that.
The list does state "noble estate with manor" for 25,000 GP, but I would say that's a lot more land and a much fancier building than what Trollskull is. That would be more like the Cassalanter Villa I would imagine, or even bigger.
I used the Candlekeep pricing for Waterdeep property prices:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16878
Given the general opulence of North Ward I called it a Class B building which is
4000 gp per 30' square plot size + 2400 gp per 30' floor for construction.
This is modified by +25% for being North Ward and +10% given it abuts Seardun St.
Now the map of Trollskull Alley shows a border for Trollskull manor is approx 80' East to west by 60' North to South.
So that implies 29,333 gp for the land. The value of the building depends on what you want to do. My guys dug a second basement and added a 5th floor with extensions over the kitchen. Then they bought the buildings to the South and East demolished them and extended further - when they were done they were dead broke and owed 300,000 gp.
Note guild fees are 5% of the value of the value of the commercial percentage of the building and taxes are 2% of total value per year.
That kind of debt tends to come with problems if the local guilds, ALL OF THEM were not involved. It also comes with problems as a debt if the Guilds were not paid off in a prompt time period. That debt is to somebody and those somebodies will come looking for payment. All manner of foul things can happen to them in those conditions. Lif will be especially problematic if it thinks it's haunt is in danger. Good Luck.
How did anyone extend them that kind of line of credit?
I think your guesstimate sounds reasonable. Gold pieces are actually coins made of solid gold, so they’re worth a lot (most people use silver pieces for their everyday expenses, which means adventurers can get wealthy really fast off the gold and platinum pieces they find in some treasure hoards). Also, when you flip a house irl (buy it cheap and then fix it up) it’s usually cheaper than other comparable houses. Basically I think 2,000 gp is totally fine.
If Trollskull Manor were turned into housing, it would probably be good enough for 5-10 people at Modest lifestyle, which is probably 2-4 gp/day (lifestyle includes costs other than housing), or 60-120 gp/month. Multiplying by 100 as a reasonable estimate of rent vs sale price, a rounded figure of around 10,000 gp seems fair (tempted by a simple rule of "houses cost 1,000x the total lifestyle cost of occupants, and halve lifestyle cost").
party of 4=400gp purchase price, but lets say volo practically gave it away for the 100gp/character at a steep discount because the group saved his bestbud. so double that to 800gp. If the characters did put the 1,500gp in renovations, that's 2,300...plus something for dealing with Lif (either got rid of him or calmed him down to be useful) - so say 2,400. add the value of it being a running business vs an abandoned building so you're over 3,000.
Just looking at the DMG where a 'small estate' is 100-1,000gp, i'd say that's village price out in the boonies, so x5 for city prices (which is about that if you look at IRL small town vs NYC boroughs - not even manhattan which, imo would be seaward)...so 500-5,000 ...but i'd say the tavern is pretty large imo so at the least, on the very high end of 'small estate' if they didn't get too fancy with upgrades.
But I think it just totally depends on your group and what they did to it. For my group, that tavern is the center of the entire game, even going into madmage. they've acquired the adjacent building and turned it into a beer garden, have a fight club in the attic, drug back the mechanical beholder out of the Cellar Complex and turned it into a giant disco ball, couple hotel rooms, expanded the basement, developed their own now Waterdeep-famous fried chicken recipe using boggle oil from a Boggle they helped escape from Blue Alley - so the tavern has some renown on its own. I'd say for my group, purchase price would be well over 10,000gp.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
A rather comprehensive list of free WotC D&D resources
Deck of Decks
I think this is closes to the correct answer and is officially the answer I will use if one of my players ever bring it up. Cheers. ;)
Actually, that Candlekeep pricing appears to be from either 3E or possible AD&D with one of the supplements. Seems a bit on the steep side. If you calculate everything you owe to get it going I think we were about 1,500 GP, and true, that isn't the full value... but it is a run down tavern with no access to the upstairs for patrons. There is practically no land with it. I would put this in the generally listed 5E price range of 5,000 - 10,000 GP at the most.
practically no land in a metro area = hugely expensive
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
A rather comprehensive list of free WotC D&D resources
Deck of Decks