Had a player ask about using his tail to sneak attack, which I said no because it's not ranged or finesse. I figured I could make a feat that allowed it if he really wanted. I don't think this does enough yet, but thoughts and opinions?
"When attacking with a melee attack granted as a racial attribute that your opponent does not possess such as a tail, horns, or hooves, you may treat the attack as though you attacked with a finesse weapon. "
Perhaps a +1 to your dex score and/or increase the scope, let natural weapon attacks be finesse, period. Also Unexpected Appendage sounds like you’re growing another limb, consider changing the name to Agile Attacker or something along those lines.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
I put that because some of the racial melee attacks aren't classified as natural weapons for whatever reason. +1 dex was what I was considering, so I concur.
Unarmed attacks granted or altered through a racial feature that lets you attack with limbs or racial weapons (such as Tabaxi's claws, Centaur hooves, Minotaur horns, etc.) are considered to be natural weapons and to have the finesse weapon property.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
So, question. Why can't a tail considered finesse? Without a specific feature that says you have natural weaponry.... couldn't this fall under the improvised weaponry rules? And any improvised weapon will have the stats you choose for it. Or make up something like a minor tool that looks like a tail decoration but could be used as a finesse weapon?
I mean, its not like he's breaking the game here, or trying to get some mechanical advantage. Just trying to do something fun and cool. Ability bumps / feats are very significant resource investments, and requiring one for such a minor thing seems pretty extreme.
Lets pretend our (tiefling? dragonborn? tabaxi? any other tailed races?) has a Dex of 16. This feat you're proposing, even with the +1 dex, would give the PC an odd ability score that provides little to no benefit (maybe a little if you make it another 4 levels and want another half-feat, but that's a stretch) and a finesse attack that deals 1 damage (default unarmed deals 1 damage, less than a dagger, unless otherwise mentioned) that will never be magically enhanced when magic items start coming out. The only time you'd get any benefit is if someone disarmed the PC somehow, but that's rare enough that its only worth mentioning for the sake of completion.
This feat needs to be something worth giving up +1 to everything a rogue could possibly want. Take Revenant Blade feat, from the new Eberron book for example. +1 Dexterity, gain +1 AC and finesse, and extra damage when making a bonus action attack with the opposite end. Not exactly a weapon suited for a rogue, but a clear example of the kind of goodies that even a half-feat should be granting when talking about a very specific weapon like this.
The point of the feat is to add finesse to the specific unarmed strikes some racial feats give you: such as 1d4 + Str for Tabaxi/Tortle Claws, for the new Ravnica lizard race's tail attack, for minotaur horns. Unless you're a monk these are Strength based. Sure you can homebrew they're Dex instead but then players who went a different race and have dex builds may ask to use Dex for their non-racial attacks and unarmed strikes. If you say no then your homebrew may be seen as favouring those races over others because they got something extra for free when other races the players may be using did not or you could say yes to all and just like that you've removed the early benefit of Monk class features and have basically granted Monk Martial Arts features to everyone.
Some may prefer the homebrew and are OK, some may feel it warrants the cost of a feat.
If you go point buy / array the max stat, which would be going into Dex for a rogue, is 15. Let's say you are a Tabaxi: you get +2 to Dex, bringing you up to 17 (+3 mod) and you get Tabaxi Claws an unarmed strike natural weapon using Strength for attack and damage and the damage die is 1d4, same as a dagger. As a Rogue this racial attack is practically useless because for rogues "strength" is essentially a dump stat. At level 4 you can take +2 Dex ASI to get 19 Dex (+4 mod). Or, you could go with this suggested feat of +1 Dex making it 18 (also +4 mod) and your Tabaxi claws are now Dexterity based for attack and damage and count as finesse so you get sneak attack using them. It's basically a dagger they cannot disarm you from but you cannot attack with range, which doesn't matter as if wanted range options you have hand crossbows for that.
If you do not think that is enough we could have the feat grant these racial unarmed strikes the "light" property and for those with claws or a mix of bite and tail like the new lizard from ravnica you gain two-weapon fighting options without needing to hold any weapons. We can even then add that these racial attacks start to count as magical and get +1 bonus to attack and damage starting 6th level increasing to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 16th level. I think that would certainly be enough to make these racial attacks actually useful for non-Monk characters, especially rogues for whom the base damage die is irrelevent as they will be relying on their sneak attack damage (hence why many rogues stick to daggers for thematic choices instead of going shortsword).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Natural weaponry is generally considered an useless feature anyways. Allowing them to be finesse doesn't hurt in the slightest. Slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies for a reason.
I presume the character already exists. So, assuming that we have a PC with an odd Dex score is much, much more unlikely; if the PC does have an odd score, its also likely already have a +1 stat feat in mind. Now, if we're in discussion about a character that hasn't been made yet, that's another matter, but I'm assuming the PC is made given the wording of the opening poster. Even then, its important to consider both sides of an issue. A tabaxi that had rolled stats and got a 16 for their Dex, on top of +2, is in the same issue. There is a high chance that the half-feat might not be the best.
For a tabaxi, instead requiring a feat that requires several levels to use as a dex-based class, why not just give it immediately? Its not worth a feat, because, despite being flavorful, its objectively worse than a dagger. The times you have to deal with being without even a backup dagger you can draw are slim (arrested by guards, attending a banquet and can't hide dagger on you, and even then there are options). Having to spend a feat just to be worse than a dagger is simply a bad trade off. Even adding "light" to this still makes the claws a crappy dagger, and specifically in the place of a rogue character, you'll already have too much competing for your bonus action.
Simply put, natural weaponry are generally crap on crap toast, and requiring a feat as a tax to bring you up to same level as a starting dagger is not a very good option.
Now, I can see where some people might have issues with the Vaishino Tail Lash (free reaction attack) combining with sneak attack. Off turn rogue attacks are pretty powerful, especially with a swashbuckler who won't have all the same restrictions on reaction sneak attacks all other rogues do. If that is the case the original poster is dealing with, I'd like to hear a bit more on the specific character. And, on its own, a reaction attack is worth half a feat. So, I can see the temptation to make this a feat. Except the problem is that the reaction attack isn't a feat, its a racial feature. You've given up darkvision (huge on a scout-like character), resistances, had to take a (useless for a rogue) Strength bump, and more. You're having to sacrifice the rogue's innate reaction ability to reduce damage; indeed, you have to -take- damage here to activate the reaction ability, which implies being caught in melee. How much must be sacrificed to allow this to work?
Compared to a variant human: +1 to two stats vs. +2 Dex and +1 Str; choice of any skill vs. free choice between athletics/stealth; feat choice v. natural weaponry+tail lash. The vaishino have already basically sacrificed a feat to do a tail lash and get +1 Dex, which fits in line with the Sentinel feat as a benchmark. A bit worse, because a human could be bumping Wis or some other key attribute.
Mephista has a far more negative view on natural weapons than I do. The minotaur at my table uses the hell out of his horns. I like the idea of this as a feat and I think Cyb3rM1nd (yeah I had to go back and double-check that spelling)'s suggestion for it matches the way I'd do it.
Again, it sounds like you're hiding the weapon even though it might be the horns on your head or the hooves on your feet. I understand the reason behind the name but this feat might not be exclusively used by rogues. If you gave extra damage for having advantage, Unexpected Appendage would work.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
This is a freshly rolled character. It is made, but unused until next session (last Saturday of this month). Currently has 17 dex. The player inquired, but I think early the Viashino tail lash will be too strong with sneak attack.
I am in favor of letting players add flavor. If your player has a barbed tail, let them do a dagger or sword or whatever they would normally do, adding whatever they would, but say they are doing a tail attack. It adds flavor and distinction to the character without taking anything away.
This is a freshly rolled character. It is made, but unused until next session (last Saturday of this month). Currently has 17 dex. The player inquired, but I think early the Viashino tail lash will be too strong with sneak attack.
Lashing Tail
Your semi-prehensile tail is tipped with a bony blade. Immediately after a creature within 5 feet of you deals damage to you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed strike against that creature with your tail. If you hit, you deal slashing damage equal to 1d4 + your Strength modifier, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike.
This does allow the Viashino to effectively use Sneak Attack multiple times in a round. He would burn the reaction with this instead of:
Uncanny Dodge
Starting at 5th level, when an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to halve the attack’s damage against you.
So they would be trading the sneak attack damage for halving damage to themselves. If a creature moved out of their range they could already use Sneak Attack as part of an opportunity attack as long as it happened on a separate turn so its somewhat balanced for this already.
I would say its not out of balance to allow it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Had a player ask about using his tail to sneak attack, which I said no because it's not ranged or finesse. I figured I could make a feat that allowed it if he really wanted. I don't think this does enough yet, but thoughts and opinions?
https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/feats/33327-unexpected-appendage
"When attacking with a melee attack granted as a racial attribute that your opponent does not possess such as a tail, horns, or hooves, you may treat the attack as though you attacked with a finesse weapon. "
Edit: added text of feat
Perhaps a +1 to your dex score and/or increase the scope, let natural weapon attacks be finesse, period. Also Unexpected Appendage sounds like you’re growing another limb, consider changing the name to Agile Attacker or something along those lines.
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
I put that because some of the racial melee attacks aren't classified as natural weapons for whatever reason. +1 dex was what I was considering, so I concur.
Maybe secret weapon?
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
So, question. Why can't a tail considered finesse? Without a specific feature that says you have natural weaponry.... couldn't this fall under the improvised weaponry rules? And any improvised weapon will have the stats you choose for it. Or make up something like a minor tool that looks like a tail decoration but could be used as a finesse weapon?
I mean, its not like he's breaking the game here, or trying to get some mechanical advantage. Just trying to do something fun and cool. Ability bumps / feats are very significant resource investments, and requiring one for such a minor thing seems pretty extreme.
Lets pretend our (tiefling? dragonborn? tabaxi? any other tailed races?) has a Dex of 16. This feat you're proposing, even with the +1 dex, would give the PC an odd ability score that provides little to no benefit (maybe a little if you make it another 4 levels and want another half-feat, but that's a stretch) and a finesse attack that deals 1 damage (default unarmed deals 1 damage, less than a dagger, unless otherwise mentioned) that will never be magically enhanced when magic items start coming out. The only time you'd get any benefit is if someone disarmed the PC somehow, but that's rare enough that its only worth mentioning for the sake of completion.
This feat needs to be something worth giving up +1 to everything a rogue could possibly want. Take Revenant Blade feat, from the new Eberron book for example. +1 Dexterity, gain +1 AC and finesse, and extra damage when making a bonus action attack with the opposite end. Not exactly a weapon suited for a rogue, but a clear example of the kind of goodies that even a half-feat should be granting when talking about a very specific weapon like this.
The point of the feat is to add finesse to the specific unarmed strikes some racial feats give you: such as 1d4 + Str for Tabaxi/Tortle Claws, for the new Ravnica lizard race's tail attack, for minotaur horns. Unless you're a monk these are Strength based. Sure you can homebrew they're Dex instead but then players who went a different race and have dex builds may ask to use Dex for their non-racial attacks and unarmed strikes. If you say no then your homebrew may be seen as favouring those races over others because they got something extra for free when other races the players may be using did not or you could say yes to all and just like that you've removed the early benefit of Monk class features and have basically granted Monk Martial Arts features to everyone.
Some may prefer the homebrew and are OK, some may feel it warrants the cost of a feat.
If you go point buy / array the max stat, which would be going into Dex for a rogue, is 15. Let's say you are a Tabaxi: you get +2 to Dex, bringing you up to 17 (+3 mod) and you get Tabaxi Claws an unarmed strike natural weapon using Strength for attack and damage and the damage die is 1d4, same as a dagger. As a Rogue this racial attack is practically useless because for rogues "strength" is essentially a dump stat. At level 4 you can take +2 Dex ASI to get 19 Dex (+4 mod). Or, you could go with this suggested feat of +1 Dex making it 18 (also +4 mod) and your Tabaxi claws are now Dexterity based for attack and damage and count as finesse so you get sneak attack using them. It's basically a dagger they cannot disarm you from but you cannot attack with range, which doesn't matter as if wanted range options you have hand crossbows for that.
If you do not think that is enough we could have the feat grant these racial unarmed strikes the "light" property and for those with claws or a mix of bite and tail like the new lizard from ravnica you gain two-weapon fighting options without needing to hold any weapons. We can even then add that these racial attacks start to count as magical and get +1 bonus to attack and damage starting 6th level increasing to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 16th level. I think that would certainly be enough to make these racial attacks actually useful for non-Monk characters, especially rogues for whom the base damage die is irrelevent as they will be relying on their sneak attack damage (hence why many rogues stick to daggers for thematic choices instead of going shortsword).
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Natural weaponry is generally considered an useless feature anyways. Allowing them to be finesse doesn't hurt in the slightest. Slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies for a reason.
I presume the character already exists. So, assuming that we have a PC with an odd Dex score is much, much more unlikely; if the PC does have an odd score, its also likely already have a +1 stat feat in mind. Now, if we're in discussion about a character that hasn't been made yet, that's another matter, but I'm assuming the PC is made given the wording of the opening poster. Even then, its important to consider both sides of an issue. A tabaxi that had rolled stats and got a 16 for their Dex, on top of +2, is in the same issue. There is a high chance that the half-feat might not be the best.
For a tabaxi, instead requiring a feat that requires several levels to use as a dex-based class, why not just give it immediately? Its not worth a feat, because, despite being flavorful, its objectively worse than a dagger. The times you have to deal with being without even a backup dagger you can draw are slim (arrested by guards, attending a banquet and can't hide dagger on you, and even then there are options). Having to spend a feat just to be worse than a dagger is simply a bad trade off. Even adding "light" to this still makes the claws a crappy dagger, and specifically in the place of a rogue character, you'll already have too much competing for your bonus action.
Simply put, natural weaponry are generally crap on crap toast, and requiring a feat as a tax to bring you up to same level as a starting dagger is not a very good option.
Now, I can see where some people might have issues with the Vaishino Tail Lash (free reaction attack) combining with sneak attack. Off turn rogue attacks are pretty powerful, especially with a swashbuckler who won't have all the same restrictions on reaction sneak attacks all other rogues do. If that is the case the original poster is dealing with, I'd like to hear a bit more on the specific character. And, on its own, a reaction attack is worth half a feat. So, I can see the temptation to make this a feat. Except the problem is that the reaction attack isn't a feat, its a racial feature. You've given up darkvision (huge on a scout-like character), resistances, had to take a (useless for a rogue) Strength bump, and more. You're having to sacrifice the rogue's innate reaction ability to reduce damage; indeed, you have to -take- damage here to activate the reaction ability, which implies being caught in melee. How much must be sacrificed to allow this to work?
Compared to a variant human: +1 to two stats vs. +2 Dex and +1 Str; choice of any skill vs. free choice between athletics/stealth; feat choice v. natural weaponry+tail lash. The vaishino have already basically sacrificed a feat to do a tail lash and get +1 Dex, which fits in line with the Sentinel feat as a benchmark. A bit worse, because a human could be bumping Wis or some other key attribute.
Mephista has a far more negative view on natural weapons than I do. The minotaur at my table uses the hell out of his horns. I like the idea of this as a feat and I think Cyb3rM1nd (yeah I had to go back and double-check that spelling)'s suggestion for it matches the way I'd do it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Again, it sounds like you're hiding the weapon even though it might be the horns on your head or the hooves on your feet. I understand the reason behind the name but this feat might not be exclusively used by rogues. If you gave extra damage for having advantage, Unexpected Appendage would work.
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
This is a freshly rolled character. It is made, but unused until next session (last Saturday of this month). Currently has 17 dex. The player inquired, but I think early the Viashino tail lash will be too strong with sneak attack.
I am in favor of letting players add flavor. If your player has a barbed tail, let them do a dagger or sword or whatever they would normally do, adding whatever they would, but say they are doing a tail attack. It adds flavor and distinction to the character without taking anything away.
Lashing Tail
Your semi-prehensile tail is tipped with a bony blade. Immediately after a creature within 5 feet of you deals damage to you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed strike against that creature with your tail. If you hit, you deal slashing damage equal to 1d4 + your Strength modifier, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike.
This does allow the Viashino to effectively use Sneak Attack multiple times in a round. He would burn the reaction with this instead of:
Uncanny Dodge
Starting at 5th level, when an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to halve the attack’s damage against you.
So they would be trading the sneak attack damage for halving damage to themselves. If a creature moved out of their range they could already use Sneak Attack as part of an opportunity attack as long as it happened on a separate turn so its somewhat balanced for this already.
I would say its not out of balance to allow it.