Then, again, you haven’t read any of the intervening 4 pages or really any rules allowing you to move other than the section describing Your Move during your turn. You also apparently haven’t read responses specifically to you.
You are also still taking the position that it is a definition. That sentence in no way defines away the natural English meaning of movement. It tells you how you can move on your turn. In some sense it does turn ‘movement’ to a game term to something beyond just waving your arms around. But its definition is not that sentence; if you think that it was then that definition includes words like “on your turn” and “up to your speed” and all of what Chicken put in section 2 above is not movement. Yet the game even calls some of it so. Heck, Flying isn’t even included in that section that you’ve quoted.
It is a complete logical shortcoming to me to say that “the rules tell you what they do” then also say that they’re doing something (change the meanings of English words) that they haven’t told you they’ve done, or really even tried to do.The rules in the Movement and Position section, rather, seem to be written as though you are expected to understand the definition of “move.”
Finally, you’ve just reiterated your position without addressing its shortcomings. To my opinion, there’s been enough of that in this thread.
Jounichi, read the thread(s). With that argument, an Orc's Aggressive isn't movement, a Battlemaster giving someone a Maneuvering Strike isn't movement, etc. Clearly, "if it isn't "the 'your movement' stuff described in the Movement & Position section of Chapter 9," then it isn't movement" isn't a very strong position. There are a great many times in the PHB that the act of "moving" is referred to outside of "your movement" on your turn.
When joining a thread late, please try to treat the conversation participants with the basic respect to assume they aren't total boneheads, and yes, have noticed the giant obvious section in Chapter 9, the movement section in Chapter 8, etc.
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Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter) Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I’m firmly in the no camp, only because I take a liberal view of the rules. I don’t try to over-define every nuance in the book because it’s written by humans - expecting concrete definitions from a fallible writer is pointless IMO. The best we can do is try to determine a general intent rather than a strict wording.
There is a reason we use significant digits - the accuracy of our conclusion cannot be more accurate than the underlying measurements used in the experiment. Therefore, because these rules have a myriad of mistakes and misused words, our ability to come to a definite conclusion will always be flawed. It’ll be up the DM on this one, but I’d go “no” in any game I play.
I call movement anything which uses your speed. Edge cases can go on a case by case basis.
Then, again, you haven’t read any of the intervening 4 pages or really any rules allowing you to move other than the section describing Your Move during your turn. You also apparently haven’t read responses specifically to you.
You are also still taking the position that it is a definition. That sentence in no way defines away the natural English meaning of movement. It tells you how you can move on your turn. In some sense it does turn ‘movement’ to a game term to something beyond just waving your arms around. But its definition is not that sentence; if you think that it was then that definition includes words like “on your turn” and “up to your speed” and all of what Chicken put in section 2 above is not movement. Yet the game even calls some of it so. Heck, Flying isn’t even included in that section that you’ve quoted.
It is a complete logical shortcoming to me to say that “the rules tell you what they do” then also say that they’re doing something (change the meanings of English words) that they haven’t told you they’ve done, or really even tried to do.The rules in the Movement and Position section, rather, seem to be written as though you are expected to understand the definition of “move.”
Finally, you’ve just reiterated your position without addressing its shortcomings. To my opinion, there’s been enough of that in this thread.
[REDACTED]
It may not be a dictionary-style definition, but the last sentence does define movement.
However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving.
When you move, you deduct that distance from your speed until you either decide to stop moving or have exhausted your speed. This is a general rule, as I have stated. And there are exceptions. Getting up from prone is not considered movement because your relative position hasn't changed. If you have a climb, fly, or swim speed, then you have a special form of movement with its own speed that you deduct from instead of the "default" speed. (Yes, for some creatures their "default" speed is one of these special ones.)
If a character is subject to the fly, then they have a fly speed. Guess what? That fly speed directly interacts with the rules for Movement and Position. We haven't spent the last six and a half years arguing over how an owl, the most popular subject of find familiar moves about, have we?
And, yes, you can move on your turn. But this is not the only time you can move. You can hold a Dash and move via your Reaction. You can be forced to move by a spell, like command and dissonant whispers. Once again, the section I've both linked to and quoted is but a general rule. There are, and will always be, exceptions.
And I'm not the first person to bring that rule up in this thread. I believe it was first linked to near the bottom of page 2, which is why its so mind-boggling to me that this argument has still been going on. Because here you are, lecturing me on not reading this thread, when I'm not convinced any of you have actually read it.
Teleportation effects don't move you because they don't rely on your speed. Rather, they instantaneously transport you. And yet, the bulk of actual comments seem to reflect the opposite. Why? Because people are confusing the colloquial meaning of move with how the rules employ the word. Yes, if you use misty step you can "move" up to 30 feet. But you haven't used your Movement, so you haven't moved. Instead, you instantaneously transported.
In order for the secondary effect of booming blade to trigger, the target must both use their movement and do so willingly. You can be compelled to move, and you can change relative positions without using movement. Both boxes need to be checked.
I’m not getting into this all over again. You can certainly rule it that way, but your reading is not required by anything actually written in the rules, and as I’ve pointed out, game features like Relentless Avenger do not work the way that you describe.
I will continue to believe that it works as it would in English.
I’m not getting into this all over again. You can certainly rule it that way, but your reading is not required by anything actually written in the rules, and as I’ve pointed out, game features like Relentless Avenger do not work the way that you describe.
I will continue to believe that it works as it would in English.
Really? I haven't actually typed about Relentless Avenger, so let's take a look.
Relentless Avenger
By 7th level, your supernatural focus helps you close off a foe’s retreat. When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, you can move up to half your speed immediately after the attack and as part of the same reaction. This movement doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks.
Sorry, but you're going to have to point out the inconsistency. I know you tried on page 2, but I just don't see it. This is a specific exception to the general rule. Where's the confusion?
I’m not getting into this all over again. You can certainly rule it that way, but your reading is not required by anything actually written in the rules, and as I’ve pointed out, game features like Relentless Avenger do not work the way that you describe.
I will continue to believe that it works as it would in English.
Really? I haven't actually typed about Relentless Avenger, so let's take a look.
Relentless Avenger
By 7th level, your supernatural focus helps you close off a foe’s retreat. When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, you can move up to half your speed immediately after the attack and as part of the same reaction. This movement doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks.
Sorry, but you're going to have to point out the inconsistency. I know you tried on page 2, but I just don't see it. This is a specific exception to the general rule. Where's the confusion?
Relentless avenger references your movement speed and is thus movement that uses your movement type associated with that speed. Relentless Avenger is a Red Herring. Of course it is movement. This has been pointed out to him many time already. He's probably just baiting with a disingenuous argument lol.
Why isn’t teleportation a specific exception again?
lol because it doesn't say it is. Rules are exceptions to other rules when they say they are. Teleportation effects never say they "move" you, nor do they say they are "movement". Nor do they reference a "speed" or a "type" of movement. Teleportation effects do not interact with anything that affects your movement speeds, and even if you cannot move because your speed is 0 from a status, you can still teleport. Teleportation is not movement or moving because it doesn't ever call itself that. Sure, YOU call it that, but you're not the rulebook.
So one side of the argument is it is only "movement" if it uses/references a speed.
The other side of the argument is movement is the act or process of moving or changing position.
So they agree on things like relentless avenger, aggressive, and primal pounce. But disagree on teleportation, gathered swarm, tempestuous magic, gust, telekinesis (of various kinds), pushing, and dragging.
And whether movement is required to "move" for the purposes of the topic of this thread is not discussed (which is never defined by the rules, but several mentions of moving by other rules indicate that the plain language understanding that being moved counts as moving is correct). And specifically whether moving via teleportation counts as moving (which again, is indicated repeatedly by various rules that it is).
It is an interesting strategy to write from the perspective of a neutral party simply summarizing everyone's arguments but then in the last line slip in your side's conclusion as if it were a neutral fact lol
So one side of the argument is it is only "movement" if it uses/references a speed.
The other side of the argument is movement is the act or process of moving or changing position.
So they agree on things like relentless avenger, aggressive, and primal pounce. But disagree on teleportation, gathered swarm, tempestuous magic, gust, telekinesis (of various kinds), pushing, and dragging.
And whether movement is required to "move" for the purposes of the topic of this thread is not discussed (which is never defined by the rules, but several mentions of moving by other rules indicate that the plain language understanding that being moved counts as moving is correct). And specifically whether moving via teleportation counts as moving (which again, is indicated repeatedly by various rules that it is).
But the rules of the game don't necessarily think of all these things as movement. Of course, we always have to look at the general rule. This establishes our baseline assumptions. But, beyond that, we also have to look at the specific descriptions for the myriad exceptions to that general rule. Each one is different, and we should not assume the game is designed to interpret them all as movement.
Movement can have a colloquial definition, and I do think this is what the majority of respondents in this thread have been relying on. But this colloquial understanding doesn't jive with the expressed language. Certain things reference the rules for movement, and other things do not. The things which do not reference those rules should not be interpreted as relying on said rules; even if a change in position is involved. It's an inference which flies in the face of everything the PHB, and in fact Sage Advice, has said on how we should read and interpret the rules.
I’m not getting into this all over again. You can certainly rule it that way, but your reading is not required by anything actually written in the rules, and as I’ve pointed out, game features like Relentless Avenger do not work the way that you describe.
I will continue to believe that it works as it would in English.
I’m not getting into this all over again. You can certainly rule it that way, but your reading is not required by anything actually written in the rules, and as I’ve pointed out, game features like Relentless Avenger do not work the way that you describe.
I will continue to believe that it works as it would in English.
"I’m not getting into this all over again." while spamming his same comment over and over.
Bro... just don't post if you don't wanna get into it. You're not required to post here rofl.
It is an interesting strategy to write from the perspective of a neutral party simply summarizing everyone's arguments but then in the last line slip in your side's conclusion as if it were a neutral fact lol
So one side of the argument is it is only "movement" if it uses/references a speed.
The other side of the argument is movement is the act or process of moving or changing position.
So they agree on things like relentless avenger, aggressive, and primal pounce. But disagree on teleportation, gathered swarm, tempestuous magic, gust, telekinesis (of various kinds), pushing, and dragging.
And whether movement is required to "move" for the purposes of the topic of this thread is not discussed (which is never defined by the rules, but several mentions of moving by other rules indicate that the plain language understanding that being moved counts as moving is correct). And specifically whether moving via teleportation counts as moving (which again, is indicated repeatedly by various rules that it is).
Better rofl
I am neutral. I don't care about "movement" because no other rule in the game cares about "movement" except the move on your turn.
Whereas there are several rules and effects that restrict movement and have to specifically exclude teleportation. But I don't think it makes sense to treat teleportation as moving in most cases including the case with booming blade.
So by writing from the perspective of a neutral party I actually slipped in a RAW fact that I personally disagree with. Because for the purposes of the rules forum, I believe in discussing the rules as written not as intended, as fun, or even as logic. I only defer back to those when there is a lack of evidence in the RAW.
And honestly I'd rather not be part of this discussion at all because "is all moving moving or is only specific moving moving?" is so self evident as to be not worth time. In fact, other people only seem to be getting more confused by participating (as evidenced by the fact that the discussion has spawned 2 additional threads). And is why I've tried to kill the discussion several times.
No progress is being made, you are just overcomplicating a simple question, the answer of which will almost never be relevant, just ask your DM when it is.
No progress is being made, you are just overcomplicating a simple question, the answer of which will almost never be relevant, just ask your DM when it is.
I'm not over-complicating anything. The answer is super simple. Something is only movement if it uses one of your movement speeds. Otherwise it isn't. And something is only moving if it says it moves you. Super simple.
So from past experiences looking over rules here is how I understand movement.
FORCED MOVEMENT:
pushed, pulled or shoved.
Since these do not use your movement they don't trigger opertunity attacks and don't count as willing movement.
Teleportation, misty step ect.
Your location changes tho you yourself have not moved as you have not consumed any movement speed to do so.
Dash walk run ect which consume movement speed do count as movement.
Spells that force an enemy to move like Command 'flee' also count as movement tho won't meet the willing movement requirement but would trigger opportunity attacks still.
That's how I've come to understand it atleast hope this helps
I always cringe when a contentious thread that has mercifully faded into the background of high-numbered forum pages gets bumped back to the front page.
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"Not all those who wander are lost"
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Then, again, you haven’t read any of the intervening 4 pages or really any rules allowing you to move other than the section describing Your Move during your turn. You also apparently haven’t read responses specifically to you.
You are also still taking the position that it is a definition. That sentence in no way defines away the natural English meaning of movement. It tells you how you can move on your turn. In some sense it does turn ‘movement’ to a game term to something beyond just waving your arms around. But its definition is not that sentence; if you think that it was then that definition includes words like “on your turn” and “up to your speed” and all of what Chicken put in section 2 above is not movement. Yet the game even calls some of it so. Heck, Flying isn’t even included in that section that you’ve quoted.
It is a complete logical shortcoming to me to say that “the rules tell you what they do” then also say that they’re doing something (change the meanings of English words) that they haven’t told you they’ve done, or really even tried to do.The rules in the Movement and Position section, rather, seem to be written as though you are expected to understand the definition of “move.”
Finally, you’ve just reiterated your position without addressing its shortcomings. To my opinion, there’s been enough of that in this thread.
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I’m firmly in the no camp, only because I take a liberal view of the rules. I don’t try to over-define every nuance in the book because it’s written by humans - expecting concrete definitions from a fallible writer is pointless IMO. The best we can do is try to determine a general intent rather than a strict wording.
There is a reason we use significant digits - the accuracy of our conclusion cannot be more accurate than the underlying measurements used in the experiment. Therefore, because these rules have a myriad of mistakes and misused words, our ability to come to a definite conclusion will always be flawed. It’ll be up the DM on this one, but I’d go “no” in any game I play.
I call movement anything which uses your speed. Edge cases can go on a case by case basis.
[REDACTED]
It may not be a dictionary-style definition, but the last sentence does define movement.
When you move, you deduct that distance from your speed until you either decide to stop moving or have exhausted your speed. This is a general rule, as I have stated. And there are exceptions. Getting up from prone is not considered movement because your relative position hasn't changed. If you have a climb, fly, or swim speed, then you have a special form of movement with its own speed that you deduct from instead of the "default" speed. (Yes, for some creatures their "default" speed is one of these special ones.)
If a character is subject to the fly, then they have a fly speed. Guess what? That fly speed directly interacts with the rules for Movement and Position. We haven't spent the last six and a half years arguing over how an owl, the most popular subject of find familiar moves about, have we?
And, yes, you can move on your turn. But this is not the only time you can move. You can hold a Dash and move via your Reaction. You can be forced to move by a spell, like command and dissonant whispers. Once again, the section I've both linked to and quoted is but a general rule. There are, and will always be, exceptions.
And I'm not the first person to bring that rule up in this thread. I believe it was first linked to near the bottom of page 2, which is why its so mind-boggling to me that this argument has still been going on. Because here you are, lecturing me on not reading this thread, when I'm not convinced any of you have actually read it.
Teleportation effects don't move you because they don't rely on your speed. Rather, they instantaneously transport you. And yet, the bulk of actual comments seem to reflect the opposite. Why? Because people are confusing the colloquial meaning of move with how the rules employ the word. Yes, if you use misty step you can "move" up to 30 feet. But you haven't used your Movement, so you haven't moved. Instead, you instantaneously transported.
In order for the secondary effect of booming blade to trigger, the target must both use their movement and do so willingly. You can be compelled to move, and you can change relative positions without using movement. Both boxes need to be checked.
I’m not getting into this all over again. You can certainly rule it that way, but your reading is not required by anything actually written in the rules, and as I’ve pointed out, game features like Relentless Avenger do not work the way that you describe.
I will continue to believe that it works as it would in English.
Really? I haven't actually typed about Relentless Avenger, so let's take a look.
Sorry, but you're going to have to point out the inconsistency. I know you tried on page 2, but I just don't see it. This is a specific exception to the general rule. Where's the confusion?
Why isn’t teleportation a specific exception again?
Relentless avenger references your movement speed and is thus movement that uses your movement type associated with that speed. Relentless Avenger is a Red Herring. Of course it is movement. This has been pointed out to him many time already. He's probably just baiting with a disingenuous argument lol.
lol because it doesn't say it is. Rules are exceptions to other rules when they say they are. Teleportation effects never say they "move" you, nor do they say they are "movement". Nor do they reference a "speed" or a "type" of movement. Teleportation effects do not interact with anything that affects your movement speeds, and even if you cannot move because your speed is 0 from a status, you can still teleport. Teleportation is not movement or moving because it doesn't ever call itself that. Sure, YOU call it that, but you're not the rulebook.
I got quotes!
So one side of the argument is it is only "movement" if it uses/references a speed.
The other side of the argument is movement is the act or process of moving or changing position.
So they agree on things like relentless avenger, aggressive, and primal pounce. But disagree on teleportation, gathered swarm, tempestuous magic, gust, telekinesis (of various kinds), pushing, and dragging.
And whether movement is required to "move" for the purposes of the topic of this thread is not discussed (which is never defined by the rules, but several mentions of moving by other rules indicate that the plain language understanding that being moved counts as moving is correct). And specifically whether moving via teleportation counts as moving (which again, is indicated repeatedly by various rules that it is).
Better rofl
I got quotes!
There are many ways to "move" a character.
But the rules of the game don't necessarily think of all these things as movement. Of course, we always have to look at the general rule. This establishes our baseline assumptions. But, beyond that, we also have to look at the specific descriptions for the myriad exceptions to that general rule. Each one is different, and we should not assume the game is designed to interpret them all as movement.
Movement can have a colloquial definition, and I do think this is what the majority of respondents in this thread have been relying on. But this colloquial understanding doesn't jive with the expressed language. Certain things reference the rules for movement, and other things do not. The things which do not reference those rules should not be interpreted as relying on said rules; even if a change in position is involved. It's an inference which flies in the face of everything the PHB, and in fact Sage Advice, has said on how we should read and interpret the rules.
[emphasis added]
Apparently someone didn’t notice the emphasis..
"I’m not getting into this all over again." while spamming his same comment over and over.
Bro... just don't post if you don't wanna get into it. You're not required to post here rofl.
I got quotes!
I am neutral. I don't care about "movement" because no other rule in the game cares about "movement" except the move on your turn.
Whereas there are several rules and effects that restrict movement and have to specifically exclude teleportation. But I don't think it makes sense to treat teleportation as moving in most cases including the case with booming blade.
So by writing from the perspective of a neutral party I actually slipped in a RAW fact that I personally disagree with. Because for the purposes of the rules forum, I believe in discussing the rules as written not as intended, as fun, or even as logic. I only defer back to those when there is a lack of evidence in the RAW.
And honestly I'd rather not be part of this discussion at all because "is all moving moving or is only specific moving moving?" is so self evident as to be not worth time. In fact, other people only seem to be getting more confused by participating (as evidenced by the fact that the discussion has spawned 2 additional threads). And is why I've tried to kill the discussion several times.
No progress is being made, you are just overcomplicating a simple question, the answer of which will almost never be relevant, just ask your DM when it is.
I'm not over-complicating anything. The answer is super simple. Something is only movement if it uses one of your movement speeds. Otherwise it isn't. And something is only moving if it says it moves you. Super simple.
I got quotes!
So from past experiences looking over rules here is how I understand movement.
FORCED MOVEMENT:
pushed, pulled or shoved.
Since these do not use your movement they don't trigger opertunity attacks and don't count as willing movement.
Teleportation, misty step ect.
Your location changes tho you yourself have not moved as you have not consumed any movement speed to do so.
Dash walk run ect which consume movement speed do count as movement.
Spells that force an enemy to move like Command 'flee' also count as movement tho won't meet the willing movement requirement but would trigger opportunity attacks still.
That's how I've come to understand it atleast hope this helps
I always cringe when a contentious thread that has mercifully faded into the background of high-numbered forum pages gets bumped back to the front page.
"Not all those who wander are lost"