I am looking for advice about how common sense issues about wearing heavy armor in a jungle environment could be handled in the game.
The way that the extreme heat rules are written, if the character doesn't have access to drinkable water the character would have to make rolls to avoid exhaustion. However, even with plenty of water in the environment I can't imagine someone wearing plate mail in a high humidity jungle on a 100+ degree day with no issues. How should one reflect the reality that you can't simply drink water to avoid the problems involved with crawling through a humid and hot jungle in a tin can? (Unless I'm greatly mistaken, but my trip to Florida would have probably been less pleasant in plate mail.)
It is just unpleasant in armor generally, but we adapt amazingly. Once one becomes accustomed to wearing armor these things aren't as impactful as you might think.
Personally, if the character is from Chult, or such a region, I wouldn't impose any additional restrictions as they would be acclimated.
This is a fantasy world where people have magic to remove sickness and injury, can shrug off grievous wounds, and more. Hells, who says that the group is walking around in 100 degree F temperature? Maybe the group's casters are using Prestidigitation or Druidcraft to lower the temperature.
So, other than needing water (and presumably salt and other necessary nutrition, which I would assume that you would have along with water), what would you suggest be realistic for a journey in the jungle? Start rolling for disease from insects? If taking a small rest is enough to recover to full from arrows shot into your body, how much would taking a short rest recover from heat?
Actually, those all are valid concerns, and covered by rules. This is one case where the rules fail to catch the reality of walking in air thick enough to cut and hot as an oven wearing completely inappropriate gear for the environment.
The module even shows concerns about this, saying that the party should encourage an NPC to not wear heavy armor into the jungle. If it wasn't dangerous why would they say that? I'm looking for any ideas on how to reflect this in game if a person is not dehydrated.
P.S. As we well know, hit points are not considered direct damage that someone could take. A fighter doesn't actually just shrug off having 20 arrows in him, it's an abstract system showing being worn out, etc. That'd explain why resting helps.
P.P.S. I'd actually strongly encourage the spellcasters to make such intelligent use of their abilities. Yet another good reason to enforce reality about wearing heavy armor in extreme heat and humidity that a character is unaccustomed to. Creative play like that should be rewarded.
I'm not sure why the adventure would state that the players should dissuade a foreign NPC from wearing heavy armor in the jungle if it wasn't an issue. I probably wouldn't give a penalty on lower degree days, but if it's hotter than normal weather (above 100) then I think something is in order.
Since I will be following the adventure's guidelines and assuming that it is dangerous wearing a portable sauna while doing vast amounts of strenuous activity (certainly for those not acclimated), I'm more interested as to what a fair penalty is. I'm sure exhaustion plays a role, but probably not to the extent in the book where if it's over 100 and you don't have suitable water you have problems extremely quickly.
Thoughts from anyone about what a fair penalty for this foolish behavior would be?
Playing with an idea... On extreme heat days I could only have rolls if strenuous activity was done in a given hour, resetting if they rest. Alternatively checks less often may work, such as daily or every x hours. Possibly with an exception for medium armor not affecting those acclimated to the environment.
Wouldn't mind any advice about these possible solutions, since there will be some sort of penalty.
Thank you Quasimojo. I think after considering the situation, as long as they stay hydrated I'll have it use the exhaustion rules on extreme heat days only, but only if they're undergoing activity that would give a good workout. Those acclimated can ignore this if not in heavy armor. From research online it usually takes a couple of weeks to acclimate to heat with steady exercise.
This may have the added benefits of encouraging creative spell use as well as taking sensible breaks while exploring a dangerous jungle. Dressing for appropriate exploration would be a part of that. Hiring porters for heavy equipment would make sense for those who want to battle turtle in armor when they see a challenge coming. I definitely want this to feel like a true exploration and not a hex-based dungeon crawl that plays just like every other medieval setting. Kind of a 1st edition style idea where logistics are actually important, not just jumping from pre-set narrative point to the next.
Thanks for the assistance. If anyone has further input I'd be glad to hear it.
The module even shows concerns about this, saying that the party should encourage an NPC to not wear heavy armor into the jungle. If it wasn't dangerous why would they say that? I'm looking for any ideas on how to reflect this in game if a person is not dehydrated.
Well, heavy armor and other inappropriate clothing inflicts disadvantage on the Constitution check. So, that's already built in. Heat exhaustion is the result of overheating your body, while sweat is your body's way of cooling down. If you're dehydrated, then you can't sweat. If you're afraid of heat stroke, resting while drinking water (or some other fluid, especially sport drinks) is the recommended treatment.
So, what kind of situation are we talking about other than dehydration?
Disadvantage on Athletics checks for heavy armour on an unusually steamy hot day? Then also add some random quicksand-type hazards which require an Athletics check to escape from to explain the danger.
The module even shows concerns about this, saying that the party should encourage an NPC to not wear heavy armor into the jungle. If it wasn't dangerous why would they say that? I'm looking for any ideas on how to reflect this in game if a person is not dehydrated.
Well, heavy armor and other inappropriate clothing inflicts disadvantage on the Constitution check. So, that's already built in. Heat exhaustion is the result of overheating your body, while sweat is your body's way of cooling down. If you're dehydrated, then you can't sweat. If you're afraid of heat stroke, resting while drinking water (or some other fluid, especially sport drinks) is the recommended treatment.
So, what kind of situation are we talking about other than dehydration?
I'm thinking along the lines of wearing inappropriate clothing to survive an extremely hot jungle. Wearing a giant tin can should have you being steamed like a dumpling when there's an extreme heat day along with miserable humidity. That stuff makes it hard to breathe or function even without having extremely heavy armor on you. Sweating doesn't work as well either with high humidity and trapping it within heavy armor.
Aaand I'm a moron. The adventure actually covers this by stating that the party needs 2 gallons of fresh water each day to avoid the heat effects and that they can't just drink from the sluggish rivers or ground water without purifying first or buying a rain gatherer. I may cause more trouble though on days where it's over 100, still thinking on that one.
I'll probably still implement quicksand and other reasons like that why heavy armor isn't the greatest idea. Plate may still be a bad idea as sweat wouldn't likely cool them as much with little exposure to air. Maybe they'll catch on.
So since the water and heat is already handled, perhaps just go with a natural trap called Swampsand. It's hard to spot, so high DC Survival check to avoid. Then if you enter the area it's a Dex save to jump out, disadvantage if weaning heavy armour, if you fail you are restrained until you pass a high DC Athletics check, also disadvantage for heavy armour. Take small acid damage every turn you are in there from the corrosive swamp slime. People can throw ropes and whatever to help. Finally add some jungle monsters that love lurking near these things, or swamp zombies buried in the sand, and attacking during the panic. A fun thematic challenge which incorporates a punishment for heavy armour.
IRL: I was going to add that in the middle ages the crusader knights DID fight in full heavy armor in the middle east. That said the reason most cited when police don't wear kevlar is because it doesn't breath and is very very uncomfortable when worn for long periods of time in hot climates.
IFL: I think Mephista point is very accurate and medically sound. The problem is dehydration. With enough water it's going to be uncomfortable, but not threatening. I think the worst extra penalty I might put on a player is that medium or heavy armor requires *additional* gallons of water (maybe +1 for medium and +2 for heavy). As you are sweating that much more.
Also keep in mind in the book on Chult medium armor costs 2x and heavy armor costs 3x. The comment is that it's rare, because of the weather. If the weather made it so no one wants it then the price would plumet as merchants dump their stocks to get any profit possible. The reason it would be expensive is if it's rare to import due to the weather but also highly valued because it provides superior protection. I do have it flavored that the Zhentarium guards on the walls wear medium and heavy armor, but they have shade, water, breaks. The benefits of heavy armor are worth being uncomfortable as it helps them outclass any enemy they deal with.
Also remember any creature with Resistance to Fire ignores all of that above.
I'm not going to let my players play fire giants though. :)
See, it does make sense in town to have armored guards, with the extra rest and water it would take. They have the resources nearby to get that rest, shade, etc... It's the slogging through a jungle that I think may be different. I'm pretty sure the crusaders didn't go across deserts wearing full armor. They'd don that when it was time for the kicking of butt to begin.
Hydration will be key in heavy armor, I agree with needing more water. I'm wondering about the possibility of heat stroke in full plate though. It's so very not breathable.
The Con Save every day for dehydration is how the game is trying to model heat stroke, etc... That's why you get a save in no/light armor and auto-fail in med/heavy.
At a certain point you have to decide where realism and fun collide. I'm sure someone has invented all kinds of runs for long distance travel in different env, but at a certain point it becomes tedious. Heck, I wrote up a 2 and half pages of document covering every single thing I'd need in Chult on a daily base: weather, pace, navigation, random encounters, dehydration, malnourishment, and infection, foraging, and then a list of spell that effect the above. (if you want to see a copy of the sheet I made, PM me)
That said I have a Revised Ranger and every player is caster of some kind so pretty much everything except weather, pace, and encounters is moot. They can summon/purify nearly infinite water, Goodberry supplies 10 people with food, and lesser restoration cures poison/disease. So, they will have fewer spell slots in combat because many are reserved for survival.
That said my players are also considering hiring enough porters (npc hiringlings) and canoes that they can paddle canoes in three 8 hour shifts while the party remains in "resting/ready" allowing them to move at triple the normal rate. This will only work on the water, on land they will have to travel normally. The porters are all non-combatant NPCs and so don't take a share of XP. I think they are also hiring one or tow actual guards, but he's purely there to protect the porters/camp site when the party is away.
My biggest complain about Chult is there are a lot of rules about wilderness survival, travel, etc... and they are spread in different parts of the PHB, DMG, and ToA. I would have liked it if the Devs had put in a "Quick Guide to daily survival in Chult".
I am looking for advice about how common sense issues about wearing heavy armor in a jungle environment could be handled in the game.
The way that the extreme heat rules are written, if the character doesn't have access to drinkable water the character would have to make rolls to avoid exhaustion. However, even with plenty of water in the environment I can't imagine someone wearing plate mail in a high humidity jungle on a 100+ degree day with no issues. How should one reflect the reality that you can't simply drink water to avoid the problems involved with crawling through a humid and hot jungle in a tin can? (Unless I'm greatly mistaken, but my trip to Florida would have probably been less pleasant in plate mail.)
It is just unpleasant in armor generally, but we adapt amazingly. Once one becomes accustomed to wearing armor these things aren't as impactful as you might think.
Personally, if the character is from Chult, or such a region, I wouldn't impose any additional restrictions as they would be acclimated.
Edited for typo :)
Perpetually annoyed that Eldritch Knights can't use Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Smite, and Eldritch Sight.
This is a fantasy world where people have magic to remove sickness and injury, can shrug off grievous wounds, and more. Hells, who says that the group is walking around in 100 degree F temperature? Maybe the group's casters are using Prestidigitation or Druidcraft to lower the temperature.
So, other than needing water (and presumably salt and other necessary nutrition, which I would assume that you would have along with water), what would you suggest be realistic for a journey in the jungle? Start rolling for disease from insects? If taking a small rest is enough to recover to full from arrows shot into your body, how much would taking a short rest recover from heat?
Actually, those all are valid concerns, and covered by rules. This is one case where the rules fail to catch the reality of walking in air thick enough to cut and hot as an oven wearing completely inappropriate gear for the environment.
The module even shows concerns about this, saying that the party should encourage an NPC to not wear heavy armor into the jungle. If it wasn't dangerous why would they say that? I'm looking for any ideas on how to reflect this in game if a person is not dehydrated.
P.S. As we well know, hit points are not considered direct damage that someone could take. A fighter doesn't actually just shrug off having 20 arrows in him, it's an abstract system showing being worn out, etc. That'd explain why resting helps.
P.P.S. I'd actually strongly encourage the spellcasters to make such intelligent use of their abilities. Yet another good reason to enforce reality about wearing heavy armor in extreme heat and humidity that a character is unaccustomed to. Creative play like that should be rewarded.
Hey Quasimojo. Definitely interesting to hear from someone with experience.
If someone is a foreigner and not used to this kind of environment, what kind of game rulings do you think would be sensible until they acclimate?
Thanks!
Just because it's not pleasant, that doesn't mean it's going to cause serious complications for the character.
I wouldn't bother with additional rules unless they're high-impact. It's just needless complication.
I'm not sure why the adventure would state that the players should dissuade a foreign NPC from wearing heavy armor in the jungle if it wasn't an issue. I probably wouldn't give a penalty on lower degree days, but if it's hotter than normal weather (above 100) then I think something is in order.
Since I will be following the adventure's guidelines and assuming that it is dangerous wearing a portable sauna while doing vast amounts of strenuous activity (certainly for those not acclimated), I'm more interested as to what a fair penalty is. I'm sure exhaustion plays a role, but probably not to the extent in the book where if it's over 100 and you don't have suitable water you have problems extremely quickly.
Thoughts from anyone about what a fair penalty for this foolish behavior would be?
If you decided a penalty was in order I would just use the exhaustion rules. They are are quite reasonable and should suffice nicely.
ETA: found in PHB appendix A
Perpetually annoyed that Eldritch Knights can't use Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Smite, and Eldritch Sight.
Playing with an idea... On extreme heat days I could only have rolls if strenuous activity was done in a given hour, resetting if they rest. Alternatively checks less often may work, such as daily or every x hours. Possibly with an exception for medium armor not affecting those acclimated to the environment.
Wouldn't mind any advice about these possible solutions, since there will be some sort of penalty.
Thank you Quasimojo. I think after considering the situation, as long as they stay hydrated I'll have it use the exhaustion rules on extreme heat days only, but only if they're undergoing activity that would give a good workout. Those acclimated can ignore this if not in heavy armor. From research online it usually takes a couple of weeks to acclimate to heat with steady exercise.
This may have the added benefits of encouraging creative spell use as well as taking sensible breaks while exploring a dangerous jungle. Dressing for appropriate exploration would be a part of that. Hiring porters for heavy equipment would make sense for those who want to battle turtle in armor when they see a challenge coming. I definitely want this to feel like a true exploration and not a hex-based dungeon crawl that plays just like every other medieval setting. Kind of a 1st edition style idea where logistics are actually important, not just jumping from pre-set narrative point to the next.
Thanks for the assistance. If anyone has further input I'd be glad to hear it.
Disadvantage on Athletics checks for heavy armour on an unusually steamy hot day? Then also add some random quicksand-type hazards which require an Athletics check to escape from to explain the danger.
Those are good ideas as well, RegentCorreon. I especially like the idea of quicksand, very jungle themed.
Aaand I'm a moron. The adventure actually covers this by stating that the party needs 2 gallons of fresh water each day to avoid the heat effects and that they can't just drink from the sluggish rivers or ground water without purifying first or buying a rain gatherer. I may cause more trouble though on days where it's over 100, still thinking on that one.
I'll probably still implement quicksand and other reasons like that why heavy armor isn't the greatest idea. Plate may still be a bad idea as sweat wouldn't likely cool them as much with little exposure to air. Maybe they'll catch on.
Thanks for the advice everyone!
So since the water and heat is already handled, perhaps just go with a natural trap called Swampsand. It's hard to spot, so high DC Survival check to avoid. Then if you enter the area it's a Dex save to jump out, disadvantage if weaning heavy armour, if you fail you are restrained until you pass a high DC Athletics check, also disadvantage for heavy armour. Take small acid damage every turn you are in there from the corrosive swamp slime. People can throw ropes and whatever to help. Finally add some jungle monsters that love lurking near these things, or swamp zombies buried in the sand, and attacking during the panic. A fun thematic challenge which incorporates a punishment for heavy armour.
Swamp zombies with a nasty sinking sand trap? I like the cut of your jib, sir!
IRL:
I was going to add that in the middle ages the crusader knights DID fight in full heavy armor in the middle east.
That said the reason most cited when police don't wear kevlar is because it doesn't breath and is very very uncomfortable when worn for long periods of time in hot climates.
IFL:
I think Mephista point is very accurate and medically sound. The problem is dehydration. With enough water it's going to be uncomfortable, but not threatening. I think the worst extra penalty I might put on a player is that medium or heavy armor requires *additional* gallons of water (maybe +1 for medium and +2 for heavy). As you are sweating that much more.
Also keep in mind in the book on Chult medium armor costs 2x and heavy armor costs 3x.
The comment is that it's rare, because of the weather. If the weather made it so no one wants it then the price would plumet as merchants dump their stocks to get any profit possible. The reason it would be expensive is if it's rare to import due to the weather but also highly valued because it provides superior protection.
I do have it flavored that the Zhentarium guards on the walls wear medium and heavy armor, but they have shade, water, breaks. The benefits of heavy armor are worth being uncomfortable as it helps them outclass any enemy they deal with.
Also remember any creature with Resistance to Fire ignores all of that above.
I'm not going to let my players play fire giants though. :)
See, it does make sense in town to have armored guards, with the extra rest and water it would take. They have the resources nearby to get that rest, shade, etc... It's the slogging through a jungle that I think may be different. I'm pretty sure the crusaders didn't go across deserts wearing full armor. They'd don that when it was time for the kicking of butt to begin.
Hydration will be key in heavy armor, I agree with needing more water. I'm wondering about the possibility of heat stroke in full plate though. It's so very not breathable.
Tieflings have Fire Resistance.
The Con Save every day for dehydration is how the game is trying to model heat stroke, etc... That's why you get a save in no/light armor and auto-fail in med/heavy.
At a certain point you have to decide where realism and fun collide. I'm sure someone has invented all kinds of runs for long distance travel in different env, but at a certain point it becomes tedious. Heck, I wrote up a 2 and half pages of document covering every single thing I'd need in Chult on a daily base: weather, pace, navigation, random encounters, dehydration, malnourishment, and infection, foraging, and then a list of spell that effect the above. (if you want to see a copy of the sheet I made, PM me)
That said I have a Revised Ranger and every player is caster of some kind so pretty much everything except weather, pace, and encounters is moot. They can summon/purify nearly infinite water, Goodberry supplies 10 people with food, and lesser restoration cures poison/disease. So, they will have fewer spell slots in combat because many are reserved for survival.
That said my players are also considering hiring enough porters (npc hiringlings) and canoes that they can paddle canoes in three 8 hour shifts while the party remains in "resting/ready" allowing them to move at triple the normal rate. This will only work on the water, on land they will have to travel normally.
The porters are all non-combatant NPCs and so don't take a share of XP. I think they are also hiring one or tow actual guards, but he's purely there to protect the porters/camp site when the party is away.
My biggest complain about Chult is there are a lot of rules about wilderness survival, travel, etc... and they are spread in different parts of the PHB, DMG, and ToA. I would have liked it if the Devs had put in a "Quick Guide to daily survival in Chult".