I have always only quoted the rules and not engaged with your strange ideas concerning how the wording of other spellcastings features are worded or used by other classes. I find they don't add anything to this argument as I'm using a feat that quite clearly says what I can and can't do with it.
If it helps you at all I agree with more than 80 or 90 percent of what you say. Its just the parts that deviate from the RAW that I have a problem with.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
You ignore general rules when they don't compliment, but contradict a specific rule.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
And it isn't house ruled if I use it to do what it says it does instead of what I want.
I will ignore what I want and just go by what the feat says.
Read once again what the 3rd bullet point says, its right there in black and white... or red if you read it from the post I put it in.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I agree with you. That is how all spellcasting works. (Not entirely sure which post you're referring to, so maybe I don't agree with you after all.) But I'm going to assume you're talking about some general rule that we both agree on.
Whatever general rule it is, it no longer applies when a specific rule states something different. You then go with the specific rule.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Condensing and paraphrasing and misquoting what I actually said to try and make me say something else won't work.
I have always only quoted the rules and not engaged with your strange ideas concerning how the wording of other spellcastings features are worded or used by other classes. I find they don't add anything to this argument as I'm using a feat that quite clearly says what I can and can't do with it.
If it helps you at all I agree with more than 80 or 90 percent of what you say. Its just the parts that deviate from the RAW that I have a problem with.
The changes to your quote would have still held true even if I didnt cut out all the extra blathering.
My "strange ideas" of effects with exactly the same wording having never worked the way you are saying it works in this case "doesn't add to this argument"?
I assume the "parts that deviate from the RAW" in my ctrl+r quote that you have problems with are the same parts of your argument that we have a problem with.
I can't find a rule that says I cannot use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't require a M component.
I also can't find a rule that says I can.
The rules rarely if ever go into exhaustive detail of all the things you can't do. That just isn't how rules are written.
Hey... Remember those rules that "don't add anything to this argument"...? You know, the ones with the exact same phrasing about things being used as a spell focus that every spellcasting class has? Well between those rules and the material component rules that say a focus can be used in place of a material component, that's the who, what, when, and how of using a focus.
I agree with you. That is how all spellcasting works. (Not entirely sure which post you're referring to, so maybe I don't agree with you after all.) But I'm going to assume you're talking about some general rule that we both agree on.
Whatever general rule it is, it no longer applies when a specific rule states something different. You then go with the specific rule.
Probably the part of the argument about how all spellcasting works:
Condensing and paraphrasing and misquoting what I actually said to try and make me say something else won't work.
I have always only quoted the rules and not engaged with your strange ideas concerning how the wording of other spellcastings features are worded or used by other classes. I find they don't add anything to this argument as I'm using a feat that quite clearly says what I can and can't do with it.
If it helps you at all I agree with more than 80 or 90 percent of what you say. Its just the parts that deviate from the RAW that I have a problem with.
Yes. Those are the same general rules that I always use.
But when i saw that this feat has RAW that allowed me to cast a spell with a focus that didn't have a M component, I thought this was a pretty specific wording that got around the general rule that we all accept and play by.
If we continued to enforce that general rule we would be imposing conditions on which spells can be cast with that focus, conditions that are not written into the 3rd bullet point of the feat. And not only that they now limit the spells you can cast this way even more, and that isn't written anywhere in the 3rd bullet point.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I agree with you. That is how all spellcasting works. (Not entirely sure which post you're referring to, so maybe I don't agree with you after all.) But I'm going to assume you're talking about some general rule that we both agree on.
Whatever general rule it is, it no longer applies when a specific rule states something different. You then go with the specific rule.
But that specific rule doesn’t change spell components either. So they remain normal.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Glad you agree with me that the spell components remain normal.
I have always argued this point and am glad that someone else finally agrees with me that the spell components remain unchanged and normal.
Good. I'm glad the discussion is over. You cannot cast a spell without M components using a focus of any kind. Even the Artificer base class tells you in Tools Required that the spells change to include M components to reinforce this point.
Except I can do this very thing with the Artificer Initiate feat because the 3rd bullet point says I can.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Not following what exactly you're saying. I thought you just agreed with me that the V,S that are the components of the magic missile spell remain the same and don't change.
If you're now trying to change them or add on M then I don't agree with that.
I think the magic missile rules for having V.S as their components should remain the same and not be changed.
If you want to go with that then you can once again join me in being on the right sort of the rules and not trying to homebrew, change, or impose our own opinions on what is already perfectly fine.
Magic missle's components should remain as they are... V, S.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Not following what exactly you're saying. I thought you just agreed with me that the V,S that are the components of the magic missile spell remain the same and don't change.
If you're now trying to change them or add on M then I don't agree with that.
I think the magic missile rules for having V.S as their components should remain the same and not be changed.
If you want to go with that then you can once again join me in being on the right sort of the rules and not trying to homebrew, change, or impose our own opinions on what is already perfectly fine.
Magic missle's components should remain as they are... V, S.
So you are finally starting to see the cognitive disconnect in your own logic?
If the spell's components are V,S, then you follow those rules (V and S only) to cast it, even as an Artificer Initiate.
But the feat doesn't do what you are using it for. That is what makes it house ruled.
Not if you are ignoring spell component rules in chapter 10 or changing the effect of the feat it doesn't.
[REDACTED]
I have always only quoted the rules and not engaged with your strange ideas concerning how the wording of other spellcastings features are worded or used by other classes. I find they don't add anything to this argument as I'm using a feat that quite clearly says what I can and can't do with it.
If it helps you at all I agree with more than 80 or 90 percent of what you say. Its just the parts that deviate from the RAW that I have a problem with.
You ignore general rules when they don't compliment, but contradict a specific rule.
Remember, even without this feat and if I wasn't planning on casting magic missile but some other spell.
I can't find a rule that says I cannot use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't require a M component.
I also can't find a rule that says I can.
And it isn't house ruled if I use it to do what it says it does instead of what I want.
I will ignore what I want and just go by what the feat says.
Read once again what the 3rd bullet point says, its right there in black and white... or red if you read it from the post I put it in.
Why not? That is how all spellcasting works.
WolfOfTheBees
I agree with you. That is how all spellcasting works. (Not entirely sure which post you're referring to, so maybe I don't agree with you after all.) But I'm going to assume you're talking about some general rule that we both agree on.
Whatever general rule it is, it no longer applies when a specific rule states something different. You then go with the specific rule.
The changes to your quote would have still held true even if I didnt cut out all the extra blathering.
My "strange ideas" of effects with exactly the same wording having never worked the way you are saying it works in this case "doesn't add to this argument"?
I assume the "parts that deviate from the RAW" in my ctrl+r quote that you have problems with are the same parts of your argument that we have a problem with.
The rules rarely if ever go into exhaustive detail of all the things you can't do. That just isn't how rules are written.
Hey... Remember those rules that "don't add anything to this argument"...? You know, the ones with the exact same phrasing about things being used as a spell focus that every spellcasting class has? Well between those rules and the material component rules that say a focus can be used in place of a material component, that's the who, what, when, and how of using a focus.
Probably the part of the argument about how all spellcasting works:
Yes. Those are the same general rules that I always use.
But when i saw that this feat has RAW that allowed me to cast a spell with a focus that didn't have a M component, I thought this was a pretty specific wording that got around the general rule that we all accept and play by.
If we continued to enforce that general rule we would be imposing conditions on which spells can be cast with that focus, conditions that are not written into the 3rd bullet point of the feat. And not only that they now limit the spells you can cast this way even more, and that isn't written anywhere in the 3rd bullet point.
But that specific rule doesn’t change spell components either. So they remain normal.
Not trying to change any spell components.
Glad you agree with me that the spell components remain normal.
I have always argued this point and am glad that someone else finally agrees with me that the spell components remain unchanged and normal.
Using something as a focus means something. Remind me what it means again?
Good. I'm glad the discussion is over. You cannot cast a spell without M components using a focus of any kind. Even the Artificer base class tells you in Tools Required that the spells change to include M components to reinforce this point.
Except I can do this very thing with the Artificer Initiate feat because the 3rd bullet point says I can.
Where does it mention adding material components to spells? Point to it.
Sure. You can use your tools as a focus for any int spells as you normally would. That is to say, not at all for magic missile.
Not following what exactly you're saying. I thought you just agreed with me that the V,S that are the components of the magic missile spell remain the same and don't change.
If you're now trying to change them or add on M then I don't agree with that.
I think the magic missile rules for having V.S as their components should remain the same and not be changed.
If you want to go with that then you can once again join me in being on the right sort of the rules and not trying to homebrew, change, or impose our own opinions on what is already perfectly fine.
Magic missle's components should remain as they are... V, S.
So you are finally starting to see the cognitive disconnect in your own logic?
If the spell's components are V,S, then you follow those rules (V and S only) to cast it, even as an Artificer Initiate.