No, the Artificer Initiate has its own unique text. It does not rely on Tools Required at all. There is no reference to it or shared language regarding M components.
Agreed, my previous posts support the concept.
Then, again, I think we are talking past each other.
.... I can now have a 5th level artificer/alchemist who multi classes into a 2nd level wizard/scribe, and with the Artificer Initiate feat I can cast Magic Missile using my Alchemist's Supplies and add my INT bonus to the damage roll.
This makes some chunky darts!!!
You can not add INT bonus to the damage roll, Brian! Magic Missile deals 'force' damage, and the 'Alchemical Savant (5th level feature)' won't allow it because of the damage type:
"You've developed masterful command of magical chemicals, enhancing the healing and damage you create through them. Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1)."
And by using the RAW to do what the 3rd bullet point allows me to do makes a big difference. I can now have a 5th level artificer/alchemist who multi classes into a 2nd level wizard/scribe, and with the Artificer Initiate feat I can cast Magic Missile using my Alchemist's Supplies and add my INT bonus to the damage roll.
This makes some chunky darts!!!
Just looking at this specific example, from where do you assume you get the ability to add your INT bonus to the damage roll? The Alchemist doesn't have a feature like that, since the spell does Force damage. The Scribes Wizard doesn't have a feature like that.
The 2nd level wizard/scribe has an ability to switch the damage type of a spell to another damage type.
I can do this by RAW.
The 3rd part of the bullet point of the feat: Artificer Initiate states I can cast any spell with artisan tools of my choosing... any spell. Not any spell that I could normally cast. Not any spell that has M components. Just... any spell.
Of course that any spell also has to be one that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
Magic Missile is any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
The exception and specific rule in this case is spelled out under the 3rd bullet point of the feat.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
.... I can now have a 5th level artificer/alchemist who multi classes into a 2nd level wizard/scribe, and with the Artificer Initiate feat I can cast Magic Missile using my Alchemist's Supplies and add my INT bonus to the damage roll.
This makes some chunky darts!!!
You can not add INT bonus to the damage roll, Brian! Magic Missile deals 'force' damage, and the 'Alchemical Savant (5th level feature)' won't allow it because of the damage type:
"You've developed masterful command of magical chemicals, enhancing the healing and damage you create through them. Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1)."
Just looking at this specific example, from where do you assume you get the ability to add your INT bonus to the damage roll? The Alchemist doesn't have a feature like that, since the spell does Force damage. The Scribes Wizard doesn't have a feature like that.
Edit: What InkedBee said.
Use the scribe wizard's awakened spellbook to change the damage type.
But you wouldn't be able to cast magic missile with alchemist supplies unless it was an artificer spell (since it has no material component).
The 2nd level wizard/scribe has an ability to switch the damage type of a spell to another damage type.
I can do this by RAW.
The 3rd part of the bullet point of the feat: Artificer Initiate states I can cast any spell with artisan tools of my choosing... any spell. Not any spell that I could normally cast. Not any spell that has M components. Just... any spell.
... while still following the other rules for spellcasting. Magic Missile does not have a Material requirement, so you do not use a focus while casting it.
This first part is from the 5th level Artificer feature Alchemical Savant:
Alchemical Savant
5th-level Alchemist feature
You've developed masterful command of magical chemicals, enhancing the healing and damage you create through them. Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).
This second part is from the 2nd level Scribe feature Awakened Spellbook:
Awakened Spellbook
2nd-level Order of Scribes feature
Using specially prepared inks and ancient incantations passed down by your wizardly order, you have awakened an arcane sentience within your spellbook.
While you are holding the book, it grants you the following benefits:
You can use the book as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells.
When you cast a wizard spell with a spell slot, you can temporarily replace its damage type with a type that appears in another spell in your spellbook, which magically alters the spell’s formula for this casting only. The latter spell must be of the same level as the spell slot you expend.
When you cast a wizard spell as a ritual, you can use the spell’s normal casting time, rather than adding 10 minutes to it. Once you use this benefit, you can’t do so again until you finish a long rest.
If necessary, you can replace the book over the course of a short rest by using your Wizardly Quill to write arcane sigils in a blank book or a magic spellbook to which you’re attuned. At the end of the rest, your spellbook’s consciousness is summoned into the new book, which the consciousness transforms into your spellbook, along with all its spells. If the previous book still existed somewhere, all the spells vanish from its pages.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The 2nd bullet point from the awakened spellbook is what I would use to change the damage type to one that is compatible with the alchemical savant feature so that I could indeed add my INT bonus to the damage roll of the magic missile spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
This interaction is still probably wrong. Artificer Initiate only allows you to use the tools you choose as your focus for int spells. As an alchemist already, you would already have proficiency in alchemist supplies, which means you couldn't choose it for the feat, and therefore couldn't cast wizard spells using alchemist supplies. In order to gain the int bonus, you need to use that tool, no others.
Yeah, when I read a rule as written and it says something like any spell, I take that to mean any spell, at least by RAW.
Now if we want to bring RAI or any other thing into the mix then I agree with most of you on the things that make sense.
But according to the RAW of the wording of the 3rd bullet point of that feat is simply says... any spell.
Not any spell but of course that means ones with M.
Or of course we still use a general rule to impose it over what is written there.
The RAW of the 3rd bullet point states any artisan tools that I choose. I chosse Alchemist's Supplies.
The it says I can cast any spell using them as a focus... any spell (period).
Magic Missile from the wizard's spell list is any spell.
The last condition of the 3rd bullet point is that it must be a spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability. The magic missile spell from the wizard's spell list is any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
By RAW I see nothing that prevents me from doing this.
All of your opinions and ideas and assumptions by what is meant by any spell, and how you can use the focus and everything is just that... opinions, ideas, and assumptions. They are not RAW.
I probably agree with most of what you're as RAI or something else.
But RAW allows for this to happen without changing or interpreting it in any special way or adding or subtracting anything from what is written.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Now you aren't even reading an entire sentence at a time.
"You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability."
You can't gain proficiency in something you're already proficient in. You can only use the benefit of this third bullet point with whatever tools you select to gain proficiency in. Notwithstanding that those tools only become a focus and are still subject to the focus rules.
You can choose the feat early before you get it as a 3rd level Artificer.
The feat isn't house ruled. It appears in the tasha's book. It is an officially published feat and fully legal.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The only reason you don't see by RAW why this doesn't work is that you want it to work. You aren't using RAW. You are relying on your hopes and dreams of what you want.
The 3rd bullet point of the feat says I can use the artisan tools, in this case Alchemist's Supplies, to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
This doesn't give magic missile a M component, but it doesn' t need to. The feat allows me to cast magic missile using my Alchemist Supplies so long as that casting of magic missile uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
Here is the feat Artificer Initiate:
Artificer Initiate
You’ve learned some of an artificer’s inventiveness:
You learn one cantrip of your choice from the artificer spell list, and you learn one 1st-level spell of your choice from that list. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
You can cast this feat’s 1st-level spell without a spell slot, and you must finish a long rest before you can cast it in this way again. You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
By RAW I see nothing that prevents me from casting cure wounds with only the hand holding my shield.
All of your opinions, ideas, chapter 10 of the PHB, and assumptions by what is meant by cleric spells, and how you can use the focus and everything is just that... opinions, ideas, and assumptions. They are not RAW.
So... You can cast cure wounds with no empty hands then? I'm pretty sure there is a specific official ruling that says the exact opposite, but what they know? They only wrote the rules, they don't know the RAW (I am being facetious here, but this sentence is actually annoyingly accurate sometimes...)
The 2nd sentence of post #97 answers your question (are you even reading what I'm posting?).
Let me repost it below and enlarge it for you so you won't miss it this time.
This doesn't give magic missile a M component, but it doesn' t need to.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
— A basic prayer.
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Then, again, I think we are talking past each other.
You can not add INT bonus to the damage roll, Brian! Magic Missile deals 'force' damage, and the 'Alchemical Savant (5th level feature)' won't allow it because of the damage type:
"You've developed masterful command of magical chemicals, enhancing the healing and damage you create through them. Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1)."
InkedBee (Undead_Analyst)
Covetous, Dragonish Thoughts - Jenviel Tsumara: Fallen Aasimar- Monk|Crimson Sands of Time - Navarra Iltazyara: Human- Druid/Warlock| Bleak Prospect - Ermasnietsz: Reborn- Clockwork Soul Sorcerer
Just looking at this specific example, from where do you assume you get the ability to add your INT bonus to the damage roll? The Alchemist doesn't have a feature like that, since the spell does Force damage. The Scribes Wizard doesn't have a feature like that.
Edit: What InkedBee said.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
The 2nd level wizard/scribe has an ability to switch the damage type of a spell to another damage type.
I can do this by RAW.
The 3rd part of the bullet point of the feat: Artificer Initiate states I can cast any spell with artisan tools of my choosing... any spell. Not any spell that I could normally cast. Not any spell that has M components. Just... any spell.
Of course that any spell also has to be one that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
Magic Missile is any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
The exception and specific rule in this case is spelled out under the 3rd bullet point of the feat.
Use the scribe wizard's awakened spellbook to change the damage type.
But you wouldn't be able to cast magic missile with alchemist supplies unless it was an artificer spell (since it has no material component).
... while still following the other rules for spellcasting. Magic Missile does not have a Material requirement, so you do not use a focus while casting it.
Well, at least now we know why exactly you're being so insistent about the rules working that way.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
This first part is from the 5th level Artificer feature Alchemical Savant:
Alchemical Savant
5th-level Alchemist feature
You've developed masterful command of magical chemicals, enhancing the healing and damage you create through them. Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).
This second part is from the 2nd level Scribe feature Awakened Spellbook:
Awakened Spellbook
2nd-level Order of Scribes feature
Using specially prepared inks and ancient incantations passed down by your wizardly order, you have awakened an arcane sentience within your spellbook.
While you are holding the book, it grants you the following benefits:
If necessary, you can replace the book over the course of a short rest by using your Wizardly Quill to write arcane sigils in a blank book or a magic spellbook to which you’re attuned. At the end of the rest, your spellbook’s consciousness is summoned into the new book, which the consciousness transforms into your spellbook, along with all its spells. If the previous book still existed somewhere, all the spells vanish from its pages.
The 2nd bullet point from the awakened spellbook is what I would use to change the damage type to one that is compatible with the alchemical savant feature so that I could indeed add my INT bonus to the damage roll of the magic missile spell.
This interaction is still probably wrong. Artificer Initiate only allows you to use the tools you choose as your focus for int spells. As an alchemist already, you would already have proficiency in alchemist supplies, which means you couldn't choose it for the feat, and therefore couldn't cast wizard spells using alchemist supplies. In order to gain the int bonus, you need to use that tool, no others.
Alchemist 5/scribe 2 with a house ruled feat is a lot of extra steps to get the evocation wizard's level 10 feature early.
Just think, you could have been a full caster with 2 feats.
Yeah, when I read a rule as written and it says something like any spell, I take that to mean any spell, at least by RAW.
Now if we want to bring RAI or any other thing into the mix then I agree with most of you on the things that make sense.
But according to the RAW of the wording of the 3rd bullet point of that feat is simply says... any spell.
Not any spell but of course that means ones with M.
Or of course we still use a general rule to impose it over what is written there.
The RAW of the 3rd bullet point states any artisan tools that I choose. I chosse Alchemist's Supplies.
The it says I can cast any spell using them as a focus... any spell (period).
Magic Missile from the wizard's spell list is any spell.
The last condition of the 3rd bullet point is that it must be a spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability. The magic missile spell from the wizard's spell list is any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
By RAW I see nothing that prevents me from doing this.
All of your opinions and ideas and assumptions by what is meant by any spell, and how you can use the focus and everything is just that... opinions, ideas, and assumptions. They are not RAW.
I probably agree with most of what you're as RAI or something else.
But RAW allows for this to happen without changing or interpreting it in any special way or adding or subtracting anything from what is written.
Now you aren't even reading an entire sentence at a time.
"You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability."
You can't gain proficiency in something you're already proficient in. You can only use the benefit of this third bullet point with whatever tools you select to gain proficiency in. Notwithstanding that those tools only become a focus and are still subject to the focus rules.
You can choose the feat early before you get it as a 3rd level Artificer.
The feat isn't house ruled. It appears in the tasha's book. It is an officially published feat and fully legal.
The only reason you don't see by RAW why this doesn't work is that you want it to work. You aren't using RAW. You are relying on your hopes and dreams of what you want.
Which of these features gives magic missile a M component?
The 3rd bullet point of the feat says I can use the artisan tools, in this case Alchemist's Supplies, to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
This doesn't give magic missile a M component, but it doesn' t need to. The feat allows me to cast magic missile using my Alchemist Supplies so long as that casting of magic missile uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
Here is the feat Artificer Initiate:
Artificer Initiate
You’ve learned some of an artificer’s inventiveness:
But you didn't answer the question. It was pretty direct.
So... You can cast cure wounds with no empty hands then? I'm pretty sure there is a specific official ruling that says the exact opposite, but what they know? They only wrote the rules, they don't know the RAW (I am being facetious here, but this sentence is actually annoyingly accurate sometimes...)
The 2nd sentence of post #97 answers your question (are you even reading what I'm posting?).
Let me repost it below and enlarge it for you so you won't miss it this time.
This doesn't give magic missile a M component, but it doesn' t need to.