Now, already have an example of RAW that, so far as I am aware, literally 0% of people play with (including in official WOTC-sponsored games), so I'm going to mention the universal consensus house rule everyone uses.
The RAW above means that order matters: if you have speeds Walk 30 Climb 10 and you walk 10 feet, you have no Climb speed left, because you used it up while walking. By universal accord, this is not done in practice; Walk 30 Climb 10 is instead interpreted as "you have 30 feet of movement for walking, up to 10 of which can be used as climbing movement".
The most critical problem with this is that "your speed" doesn't exist, in general. It is both common and typical for creatures to have more than one speed (making "your speed" undefined). Less importantly but also significant, if you just pick a speed and use that for the Dash rules, you end up with absolutely bizarre consequences, RAW. Here are two examples:
A giant toad that dashes with its Walk speed (e.g. if you rule that Dash is always based on Walk speed) effectively can't Dash while swimming. The same monster dashing with its swim speed ends up with 80 feet of "movement" but, in terms of strict RAW, because it is still Swim 40, the farthest it can Swim is 60 feet (40 thanks to Swim 40, and then its remaining 40 feet of "movement" have to pay double cost like normal for anyone who's exhausted their Swim speed).
A cat has the opposite problem of the toad, where its non-walk speed is less than its walk speed. The same fundamental question applies and we still have no useful RAW answer: when a cat dashes, how far can it walk and how far can it climb?
Much like the universally-agreed upon house rule for handling order of movement, I'm wondering if everyone is handling Dash the same way as each other, because I can only think of one solution, and it doesn't seem to have any substantial flaws. Here's my theory on how people are actually playing:
Given a creature with a Burrow speed B, Climb speed C, Fly speed F, Swim speed S, and Walk speed W, proceed as follows:
Per the stock movement movement rules, strict RAW, the creature's total movement T = max(B,C,F,S,W), where max means maximum.
Using the universal house rule for movement, we can sanely refer to terms like "Burrow movement" - the creature has Burrow movement B, regardless of whether or not B equals its total movement, and it consumes this (as well as total movement) when it Burrows.
Each time the creature Dashes, increase all of these movement values by their original value: 1 Dash means the creature is at 2T = max(2B,2C,2F,2S,2W), 2 Dashes means the multiplier is 3, and so on.
Going back to our monsters above, they work like this:
A giant toad has 40' movement with Swim 40 and Walk 20. When it Dashes once, it has 80' of movement and moves as if it's Swim 80 Walk 40.
A cat has 40' movement with Walk 40 and Climb 30. When it Dashes once, it has 80' of movement and moves as if it's Walk 80 Climb 60.
Is that how everyone else does it? I asked around with some friends of mine and they seem to immediately agree that this is how they do it, too. If not, how do you obey the RAW, given that you don't have "a speed" to double?
Your interpretation is entirely in line with the RAW and the way I've always seen it played. I don't see any reason to restrict "your speed" to referring only to a single type of movement.
As for the house rule you mentioned, we've always played with the RAW movement rules and never had an issue. It isn't common for people to want to use a faster movement speed followed by a slower movement speed on the same turn during combat.
It's definitely an area of the rules that they need to clear up with One D&D.
The way I tend to think of it is with "speed" being like your maximum hit-points (how much you can use in total) and movement is how much you've used for the round, and both reset at the start of your turn.
Taking the Dash action adds your current base speed to your current speed, so double if you Dash once, triple if you double Dash using Cunning Action, Step of the Wind, expeditious retreat etc.
For mixed speeds, I think of the highest as the maximum, and everything else as resources you can spend during the turn if you like. So if you have a 30 foot walking speed and 10 foot flying, then you can move a total of 30 feet, up to 10 of which can be flying.
If this isn't Rules As Intended, then it needs to be.
You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet.
Moving Between Attacks
If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an attack, move 15 feet, and then attack again.
Using Different Speeds
If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you’ve already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can’t use the new speed during the current move.
For example, if you have a speed of 30 and a flying speed of 60 because a wizard cast the fly spell on you, you could fly 20 feet, then walk 10 feet, and then leap into the air to fly 30 feet more.
There is a good example in Chapter 9: Combat in the PHB how to use different move speeds (see in blue below).
For example, if you have a speed of 30 and a flying speed of 60 because a wizard cast the fly spell on you, you could fly 20 feet, then walk 10 feet, and then leap into the air to fly 30 feet more.
The difficulty with this example is; what happens if you fly 30 feet first, are you then incapable of walking? Or you can you spend the 30 feet of extra flying movement first?
You're incapable of using any movement with 0 speed left. In the blue exemple the maximum it could walk was 10 feet because after using a total of 30 feet of speed it had none left. Flying 30+ feet first also reach the same result. Flying 10 feet instead would leave it up to 20 feet of speed left to walk because of the speed limit by movement type.
You're incapable of using any movement with 0 speed left. In the blue exemple the maximum it could walk was 10 feet because after using a total of 30 feet of speed it had none left. Flying 30+ feet first also reach the same result. Flying 10 feet instead would leave it up to 20 feet of speed left to walk because of the speed limit by movement type.
I don't think the rules actually make that clear, the examples certainly don't which was my point, and it's a pretty silly way to rule it.
It seems like the system is intended to represent some movement types being more efficient than others, but it abstracts it in a way that isn't actually all that simple and is really clunky and confusing. While it would still be complicated, the better rule would be if creatures had a single speed, and different movement costs, i.e- by default creatures have 30 feet of walking speed, and climbing and swimming cost 2 feet (i.e- for every 1 feet of climbing/swimming it will cost you 2 feet of movement), so basically the same as difficult terrain already works.
For the 30 feet and 60 feet flying example you'd have 30 feet of speed, but flying costs 0.5 feet (you can fly 2 feet for every 1 feet of movement you spend), because this actually represents some movement being easier or harder than others.
The current system as it seems to be written (while less clear on intention) is basically the worst of all methods; it's complicated without being useful, and simplified in a way that doesn't make it simpler. It means that a bunch of awkward, annoying cases can arise that aren't fun for anyone.
I don't understand the question at all. I have never felt that the movement speed rules were ambiguous or vague.
Edit: Okay, it took me a bit. I see the issue now, yes.
I have always seen it played like this: You can go as far as your fastest speed, if using that speed. So if you have climb 10, walk 30, you can go 30ft in any order, but only up to 10ft of it can be climbing.
You're incapable of using any movement with 0 speed left. In the blue exemple the maximum it could walk was 10 feet because after using a total of 30 feet of speed it had none left. Flying 30+ feet first also reach the same result. Flying 10 feet instead would leave it up to 20 feet of speed left to walk because of the speed limit by movement type.
I don't think the rules actually make that clear, the examples certainly don't which was my point, and it's a pretty silly way to rule it.
It's clear to me when Using Different Speed that when your speed is 0 for a given movement type, you can't use it to move.
Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you’ve already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can’t use the new speed during the current move.
It seems weird to approach a discussion on how to make something work with the assumption that it is fundamentally broken, when it seems that most people don't see it as fundamentally broken and have been using it as-is all along.
It seems weird to approach a discussion on how to make something work with the assumption that it is fundamentally broken, when it seems that most people don't see it as fundamentally broken and have been using it as-is all along.
I didn't assume, I read the actual rules. That's the opposite of assuming.
It seems weird to approach a discussion on how to make something work with the assumption that it is fundamentally broken, when it seems that most people don't see it as fundamentally broken and have been using it as-is all along.
I didn't assume, I read the actual rules. That's the opposite of assuming.
The rules on Dash aren't broken.
They only become complicated when you are mixing different movement types with differing speeds.
This thread's title doesn't reflect that the OP is suggesting is broken only when trying to use it with more more than one movement type that have different speeds.
A creature with a walk speed of 30 and climb speed of 10 could EITHER move 30' walking or 10' climbing in a turn using ALL of its movement. It can't do both.
If the creature moves 10' walking then it has 20' of walking left and 0' feet of climbing because RAW you take the 10' of climb and subtract the 10' walked and you are left with 0.
The reason for this is to save all of the proportionality math required. In theory, a creature who has used 1/3 of its walk speed still has 2/3 of its walk speed OR 2/3 of its climb speed left but this gets too onerous to work out so the rules simplify it by just subtracting the amount moved from ALL other move speeds.
You gain EXTRA movement for the current turn and the increase equals your current speed.
A creature who has 80' swim, 60' fly, 40' walk, 20' climb could use ANY of these movement speeds during their dash action (the same as their move). This means that they could swim another 80', fly 60', walk 40' OR climb 20'.
In addition, any movement used is subtracted from ALL of the movement speeds. So if you move 20' using ANY type of movement, you can't climb anymore. If you walk 40', you have 20' of flying left and 40' of swimming.
----------
This is what RAW says and honestly that is how I run it in my games.
Does RAW make sense? Not really :) but as you've said before there are lots of places where RAW may not make sense or give a good "simulation" of reality. In this case, it gives something simple that can be easily calculated if not particularly realistic.
Does order of use of movement speeds matter? YES ... You could climb 20' and still have 60' of swimming left but if you swim 20' first you will have no climbing left. It is a simplified game mechanic.
Do these rules as written work? YES. Are they unplayable? Absolutely not. Are they realistic? NO.
-----
If you want realism you need to go to a proportional movement system where a creature with 80' swim and 40' walk can use 1/4 of one speed and have 3/4 of EITHER of the others remaining. That would be more realistic
eg
RAW - creature with 80' swim, 40' walk ... walks 10' and they then have 30' walking OR 70' swimming left ... walks 40' and they have 0' walking and 40' swimming left.
Proportional (more realistic) house rule - creature with 80' swim, 40' walk ... walks 10' and they then have 30' walking OR 60' swimming left (1/4 total movement of any type used) ... walks 40' and they have 0' walking and 0' swimming left (100% total of any movement used) ... but this is a house rule and gets complicated with 5' increments and worse if switching back and forth between move speeds which is why the designers likely picked simple over realistic in this case.
Reading/searching on the internet about dashing when your character has different speeds, I found this entry in Sage Advice (not the official page here in DnD Beyond!) with some Q&A from Jeremy Crawford. The Tweet that caught my interest is this one:
When you take the Dash action, you get extra movement equal to your speed. If you have more than one speed, the relevant speed is the one you're using to move. The Dash action doesn't use the speed of an item/vehicle/mount you're using
Does that imply that the additional movement should only be applied to one of your multiple speeds?
Honestly, could go either way based on that blurb. It could mean that whatever speed you use that turn has its base value doubled, or it could mean that you’re supposed to pick one speed to Dash with. I could kinda see the latter as a small check on Dash with multiple speeds, just to preempt people coming up with some kind of shenanigans around it.
The issue is not Dash but with combining different speeds. Dash is fine. Leave it alone.
Combining different speeds however is badly broken and should be fixed.
Personally, I do proportionally. If you use half your fly, you have used half of swim, walk, climb, etc. etc. etc. If you use 3/4, you have used 3/4 of all.
This is house ruling, not raw, but what I prefer to do.
Honestly, could go either way based on that blurb. It could mean that whatever speed you use that turn has its base value doubled, or it could mean that you’re supposed to pick one speed to Dash with. I could kinda see the latter as a small check on Dash with multiple speeds, just to preempt people coming up with some kind of shenanigans around it.
Yeah, I know, it's just a Tweet 😣, but even if it's like you said ("it could mean that you’re supposed to pick one speed to Dash with"), the correct way is to add the extra movement to all your movement types, right?
Or at least, it's how I understand the rules and this thread.
Honestly, could go either way based on that blurb. It could mean that whatever speed you use that turn has its base value doubled, or it could mean that you’re supposed to pick one speed to Dash with. I could kinda see the latter as a small check on Dash with multiple speeds, just to preempt people coming up with some kind of shenanigans around it.
Yeah, I know, it's just a Tweet 😣, but even if it's like you said ("it could mean that you’re supposed to pick one speed to Dash with"), the correct way is to add the extra movement to all your movement types, right?
Or at least, it's how I understand the rules and this thread.
That seems to be the consensus, and I agree, but it’s tricky to call based strictly on what’s written in the PHB or this tweet.
Lets say you have a swim speed of 20, a walk of 30, and a fly of 50.
You fly 10 ft forward, 5 ft above the ocean, to attack a flying fish, then hit him. He has some kind of reaction attack that knocks you down, falling 5 ft down into the ocean, for a total of 15 ft of flying. You swim 5 ft to the beach. This has taken up your movement and attack. Your total movement is now 20 ft, and you used some swimming last, so you have now used up all your movement for ANY type.
But you are a rogue and have a bonus action dash, which you use to walk 15 ft, away from those nasty flying fish above your head, then leap into the air. You are now flying, having used 15 ft of movement earlier by walking, leaving 35 ft of flying movement left.
This is RAW, but stupid in my opinion. How much movement you have left depends entirely on the last kind of movement you used, not the total movement.
I went over the Dash rules recently, and they appear to be unplayable; I'm wondering if everyone uses the same solution for solving this or not.
First, let's recap the normal movement rules, without the Dash action.
Now, already have an example of RAW that, so far as I am aware, literally 0% of people play with (including in official WOTC-sponsored games), so I'm going to mention the universal consensus house rule everyone uses.
And now, the unplayable Dash rules.
The most critical problem with this is that "your speed" doesn't exist, in general. It is both common and typical for creatures to have more than one speed (making "your speed" undefined). Less importantly but also significant, if you just pick a speed and use that for the Dash rules, you end up with absolutely bizarre consequences, RAW. Here are two examples:
Much like the universally-agreed upon house rule for handling order of movement, I'm wondering if everyone is handling Dash the same way as each other, because I can only think of one solution, and it doesn't seem to have any substantial flaws. Here's my theory on how people are actually playing:
Is that how everyone else does it? I asked around with some friends of mine and they seem to immediately agree that this is how they do it, too. If not, how do you obey the RAW, given that you don't have "a speed" to double?
Your interpretation is entirely in line with the RAW and the way I've always seen it played. I don't see any reason to restrict "your speed" to referring only to a single type of movement.
As for the house rule you mentioned, we've always played with the RAW movement rules and never had an issue. It isn't common for people to want to use a faster movement speed followed by a slower movement speed on the same turn during combat.
While I am not aware of any rigorous definition for the term "your speed", this is something Jeremy Crawford has addressed in a tweet: https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/618278294912286721?lang=en
While I wouldn't consider this a RAW or RAI source, it does help reinforce what most people would intuitively expect the Dash action to do.
It's definitely an area of the rules that they need to clear up with One D&D.
The way I tend to think of it is with "speed" being like your maximum hit-points (how much you can use in total) and movement is how much you've used for the round, and both reset at the start of your turn.
Taking the Dash action adds your current base speed to your current speed, so double if you Dash once, triple if you double Dash using Cunning Action, Step of the Wind, expeditious retreat etc.
For mixed speeds, I think of the highest as the maximum, and everything else as resources you can spend during the turn if you like. So if you have a 30 foot walking speed and 10 foot flying, then you can move a total of 30 feet, up to 10 of which can be flying.
If this isn't Rules As Intended, then it needs to be.
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There is a good example in Chapter 9: Combat in the PHB how to use different move speeds (see in blue below).
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/combat#BreakingUpYourMove
Breaking Up Your Move
You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet.
Moving Between Attacks
If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an attack, move 15 feet, and then attack again.
Using Different Speeds
If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you’ve already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can’t use the new speed during the current move.
For example, if you have a speed of 30 and a flying speed of 60 because a wizard cast the fly spell on you, you could fly 20 feet, then walk 10 feet, and then leap into the air to fly 30 feet more.
The difficulty with this example is; what happens if you fly 30 feet first, are you then incapable of walking? Or you can you spend the 30 feet of extra flying movement first?
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Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
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Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
You're incapable of using any movement with 0 speed left. In the blue exemple the maximum it could walk was 10 feet because after using a total of 30 feet of speed it had none left. Flying 30+ feet first also reach the same result. Flying 10 feet instead would leave it up to 20 feet of speed left to walk because of the speed limit by movement type.
I don't think the rules actually make that clear, the examples certainly don't which was my point, and it's a pretty silly way to rule it.
It seems like the system is intended to represent some movement types being more efficient than others, but it abstracts it in a way that isn't actually all that simple and is really clunky and confusing. While it would still be complicated, the better rule would be if creatures had a single speed, and different movement costs, i.e- by default creatures have 30 feet of walking speed, and climbing and swimming cost 2 feet (i.e- for every 1 feet of climbing/swimming it will cost you 2 feet of movement), so basically the same as difficult terrain already works.
For the 30 feet and 60 feet flying example you'd have 30 feet of speed, but flying costs 0.5 feet (you can fly 2 feet for every 1 feet of movement you spend), because this actually represents some movement being easier or harder than others.
The current system as it seems to be written (while less clear on intention) is basically the worst of all methods; it's complicated without being useful, and simplified in a way that doesn't make it simpler. It means that a bunch of awkward, annoying cases can arise that aren't fun for anyone.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
I don't understand the question at all. I have never felt that the movement speed rules were ambiguous or vague.
Edit: Okay, it took me a bit. I see the issue now, yes.
I have always seen it played like this: You can go as far as your fastest speed, if using that speed. So if you have climb 10, walk 30, you can go 30ft in any order, but only up to 10ft of it can be climbing.
It's clear to me when Using Different Speed that when your speed is 0 for a given movement type, you can't use it to move.
It seems weird to approach a discussion on how to make something work with the assumption that it is fundamentally broken, when it seems that most people don't see it as fundamentally broken and have been using it as-is all along.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I didn't assume, I read the actual rules. That's the opposite of assuming.
The rules on Dash aren't broken.
They only become complicated when you are mixing different movement types with differing speeds.
This thread's title doesn't reflect that the OP is suggesting is broken only when trying to use it with more more than one movement type that have different speeds.
Nope. That isn't how I handle it or read the RAW.
1) I play the following as written:
If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you've already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can't use the new speed during the current move.
A creature with a walk speed of 30 and climb speed of 10 could EITHER move 30' walking or 10' climbing in a turn using ALL of its movement. It can't do both.
If the creature moves 10' walking then it has 20' of walking left and 0' feet of climbing because RAW you take the 10' of climb and subtract the 10' walked and you are left with 0.
The reason for this is to save all of the proportionality math required. In theory, a creature who has used 1/3 of its walk speed still has 2/3 of its walk speed OR 2/3 of its climb speed left but this gets too onerous to work out so the rules simplify it by just subtracting the amount moved from ALL other move speeds.
2) I don't find the Dash rules unplayable either
You gain EXTRA movement for the current turn and the increase equals your current speed.
A creature who has 80' swim, 60' fly, 40' walk, 20' climb could use ANY of these movement speeds during their dash action (the same as their move). This means that they could swim another 80', fly 60', walk 40' OR climb 20'.
In addition, any movement used is subtracted from ALL of the movement speeds. So if you move 20' using ANY type of movement, you can't climb anymore. If you walk 40', you have 20' of flying left and 40' of swimming.
----------
This is what RAW says and honestly that is how I run it in my games.
Does RAW make sense? Not really :) but as you've said before there are lots of places where RAW may not make sense or give a good "simulation" of reality. In this case, it gives something simple that can be easily calculated if not particularly realistic.
Does order of use of movement speeds matter? YES ... You could climb 20' and still have 60' of swimming left but if you swim 20' first you will have no climbing left. It is a simplified game mechanic.
Do these rules as written work? YES. Are they unplayable? Absolutely not. Are they realistic? NO.
-----
If you want realism you need to go to a proportional movement system where a creature with 80' swim and 40' walk can use 1/4 of one speed and have 3/4 of EITHER of the others remaining. That would be more realistic
eg
RAW - creature with 80' swim, 40' walk ... walks 10' and they then have 30' walking OR 70' swimming left ... walks 40' and they have 0' walking and 40' swimming left.
Proportional (more realistic) house rule - creature with 80' swim, 40' walk ... walks 10' and they then have 30' walking OR 60' swimming left (1/4 total movement of any type used) ... walks 40' and they have 0' walking and 0' swimming left (100% total of any movement used) ... but this is a house rule and gets complicated with 5' increments and worse if switching back and forth between move speeds which is why the designers likely picked simple over realistic in this case.
Reading/searching on the internet about dashing when your character has different speeds, I found this entry in Sage Advice (not the official page here in DnD Beyond!) with some Q&A from Jeremy Crawford. The Tweet that caught my interest is this one:
Does that imply that the additional movement should only be applied to one of your multiple speeds?
Honestly, could go either way based on that blurb. It could mean that whatever speed you use that turn has its base value doubled, or it could mean that you’re supposed to pick one speed to Dash with. I could kinda see the latter as a small check on Dash with multiple speeds, just to preempt people coming up with some kind of shenanigans around it.
The issue is not Dash but with combining different speeds. Dash is fine. Leave it alone.
Combining different speeds however is badly broken and should be fixed.
Personally, I do proportionally. If you use half your fly, you have used half of swim, walk, climb, etc. etc. etc. If you use 3/4, you have used 3/4 of all.
This is house ruling, not raw, but what I prefer to do.
Yeah, I know, it's just a Tweet 😣, but even if it's like you said ("it could mean that you’re supposed to pick one speed to Dash with"), the correct way is to add the extra movement to all your movement types, right?
Or at least, it's how I understand the rules and this thread.
That seems to be the consensus, and I agree, but it’s tricky to call based strictly on what’s written in the PHB or this tweet.
Here are the rules for combining movement.
Lets say you have a swim speed of 20, a walk of 30, and a fly of 50.
You fly 10 ft forward, 5 ft above the ocean, to attack a flying fish, then hit him. He has some kind of reaction attack that knocks you down, falling 5 ft down into the ocean, for a total of 15 ft of flying. You swim 5 ft to the beach. This has taken up your movement and attack. Your total movement is now 20 ft, and you used some swimming last, so you have now used up all your movement for ANY type.
But you are a rogue and have a bonus action dash, which you use to walk 15 ft, away from those nasty flying fish above your head, then leap into the air. You are now flying, having used 15 ft of movement earlier by walking, leaving 35 ft of flying movement left.
This is RAW, but stupid in my opinion. How much movement you have left depends entirely on the last kind of movement you used, not the total movement.