With the invocation, voice of the chain master, it allows you to telepathically link to your familiar if its on the same plane of existence and for you to speak through your familiar. One question i had is, if I didn't have this, would i only be able to perceive through their sense for 100 feet?
Yes exactly. The Warlock Pact feature works exactly like the spell Find Familiar, except where it specifies it's different.
Those differences being: I doesn't count as a spell known It can summon: imp, psuedodragon, quiasit, or sprite in addition to those from the spell Find Familiar The Warlock can sacrifice an attack to allow the familiar to use it's Reaction to attack on the Warlock's turn.
Those being the same still: Takes 1 hr to cast the spell and costs 10gp to cast the spell It would still have it's own initiative and act independently. If it's within 100' of the Warlock is can communicate telepathically and as an Action the Warlock can give it it's senses to see through the senses of the familiar.
That said Voice of the Chain Master as an Invocation further modifies it and allows this communication to take place at infinite distance as long as both the familiar and the Warlock are on the same plane.
read the invocation: voice of the chain master carefully, it supplants some benefits over the find familiar spell... for instance, seeing and hearing through your familiar doesn't leave you blind and deaf (since it doesn't say it does)
I would argue that it still leaves you blind and deaf. Just because it doesn't say it leaves you blind and deaf, doesn't mean that's the case. Its already stated in the spell that this is the effect, so I would assume that it would need to plainly write out that it doesn't leave you blind and deaf
It's worded in a way that leaves interpretation rather vague. I believe the intent is to modify the spell Find Familiar to increase range and allow the caster to speak through the familiar. No one will debate that these features are not granted.
However the wording can be taken without considering the limitations of the original spell. This could be interpreted to not require an action to look through the familiar, no longer limit the duration of that effect to one round, and/or not limit the Caster's other senses for that duration. Verify with the DM how this is handled at their table before making any choices.
The latter interpretation has some distinct and potent implications including the game altering point, a Warlock who's pet has blindsight has blindsight himself.
It's a real investment to spend an invocation on an ability, and giving players access to Blindsight or other increased senses won't alter the game to the point of breaking anything, so I would probably allow the latter interpretation in a normal game.
Exceptions are explicit. Voice of the Chain Master doesn't say you're no longer blind and deaf while using your familiar's senses, so you're still blind and deaf while using your familiar's senses. All it does is extend the range for communication/senses and let you speak through them.
How about this, is the phrase "as long as you are on the same plane of existence" an exception to time, distance, or both?
Anyway the feature doesn't directly reference Find Familiar so it can be interpreted as not being an exception to that spell. However it has Pact of the Chain as a requirement and so refers to the spell indirectly.
I would view it as replacing the relevant parts with what they actually do say, and since it's an Invocation I would think it does more than allow you to speak through your familiar.
Keep in mind the Warlock doesn't get blindsight, he sees through his familiar's eyes with blindsight.
If you only cast Find Familiar (as a warlock or wizard) then you are blind and deaf, but I would allow the Invocation to override this part with what it says under Voice of the Chain Master:
VOICE OF THE CHAIN MASTER Prerequisite: Pact of the Chain feature You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar's senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence. Additionally. while perceiving through your familiar's senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech.
Because it doesn't say there that you're blind and deaf, I would rule that it overrides that drawback from the Find Familiar spell. Otherwise all the Invocation would be doing is giving you a better range to communicate and allowing you to speak with your own voice... which isn't much considering the Imp, Quasit, and Sprite can all speak anyway.
When considered as an augmentation of the spell Find Familiar would read as follows:
"You gain the service of a familiar, ...
While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically (as long as you are on the same plane of existence). Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn (as long as you are on the same plane of existence?), gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses. (Additionally. while perceiving through your familiar's senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech.)
..."
The implication of this interpretation is situational. You must rescue the princess from some deep dark maze dungeon. You summon your familiar as a spider and it scouts out the entire maze going completely unnoticed. It locates the princess and opens a line of communication with her. Before you even approach the gate. A very powerful, yet situationally beneficial ability. I'd give it the added versatility of removing my question mark and the consequence of deafness and blindness, but I accept that that's a house ruling rather than the intended function.
I was looking at it more as each section of the find familiar spell being replaced by anything from the warlock boon, pact of the chain, or invocation, voice of the chain master, as replacing that section... so that the invocation had more power and worth:
FIND FAMILIAR 1st-level conjuration (ritual) Casting Time: 1 hour Range: 10 feet Components: V. S, M (10 gp worth of charcoal, incense, and herbs that must be consumed by fire in a brass brazier) Duration: Instantaneous You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel. When you cast the spell, you can choose one of the normal forms for your familiar or one of the following special forms: imp, pseudodragon, quasit, or sprite. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the familiar has the statistics of the chosen form, though it is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast. Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal.Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack of its own. When the familiar drops to 0 hit points, it disappears, leaving behind no physical form. It reappears after you cast this spell again While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn. gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar's senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence. Additionally. while perceiving through your familiar's senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech. As an action, you can temporarily dismiss your familiar. It disappears into a pocket dimension where it awaits your summons. Alternatively, you can dismiss it forever. As an action while it is temporarily dismissed, you can cause it to reappear in any unoccupied space within 30 feet of you. You can't have more than one familiar at a time. If you cast this spell while you already have a familiar, you instead cause it to adopt a new form. Choose one of the forms from the above list. Your familiar transforms into the chosen creature. Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it. If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll.
This compendium contains rules that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
There is nothing in Voice of the Chain Master that contradicts you being blind or deaf. New rules don't create exceptions by omission; they create them explicitly.
Your reading also scratches out the action cost and duration of using your familiar's senses. That's obviously not the intended reading.
Also because something is left out, you don't infer it is left in. Voice of the Chain Master doesn't say you are blind or deaf when using your familiars senses. Neither does casting Fireball.
To infer you are blind and deaf because it was omitted from Voice of the Chain Master... is the same as inferring you are blind and deaf from casting Fireball.
And your own argument is that an explicit rule overrides a general rule... would support that you use the senses the way they are written in Voice of the Chain Master and not the way they appear in the Find Familiar spell.
In one place it says you are blind and deaf when using the senses, and in another it doesn't say that. When selecting Voice of the Chain Master you would use that rule over the other.
But always check with your DM, they have final say. You may not want to take Voice of the Chain Master if it really dosn't do much of anything.
To infer you are blind and deaf because it was omitted from Voice of the Chain Master... is the same as inferring you are blind and deaf from casting Fireball.
Fireball doesn't build on top of Find Familiar the way Voice of the Chain Master does, so no, they're not the same.
I can see how it could be interpreted your way, but as I said that makes an Invocation that you can't take unless you meet it's prerequisite (which means it's more powerful than a regular Invocation that any warlock can take... only pact of the chain warlocks can take Voice of the Chain Master), only extends the range of using the familiars senses and let's you speak with your voice.
In my, and many other games, allowing it to be used without the blind and deaf penalty make it actually worth taking. Rule of Cool.
Having a prerequisite doesn't always mean it's meant to be more powerful, sometimes it's just there to protect players from themselves. Voice of the Chain Master is useless if you don't have a familiar, so putting the prerequisite on it prevents players from taking something that's useless to them. That's the same reason the Elemental Adept feat has "Prerequisite: The ability to cast at least one spell."
I don't have a problem with people doing things because of Rule of Cool, I just want to make sure the Rules as Written are clear.
Well... the rules as written is 5e are not clear. That is why there has been so much errata published since they have been released. And there are also entire sites dedicated to answering rules questions... simply because they are not clear. Sometimes they're meant to be taken RAW and other times RAI.
The rule we're debating can be interpreted to cherry pick very specific parts of find familiar and replace them with voice of the chain master... or you can override all the parts of find familiar that deal with senses and replace them with the voice of the chain master rules for using senses.
RAW are not clear on that. If they were, what would we be debating?
Unfortunately the rule on this one is not written clearly... It should read something like: "you may use your action to perceive through your familiar's senses as described in the spell Find Familiar without being within 100 feet of your familiar if you are on the same plane of existence. Also, something about your voice."
But it does not use that kind of wording, and so, is open to interpretation by the DM.
The invocation enhances the power which otherwise works as per the spell. The spell lets you use only one set of senses at a time. No language in the invocation modifies that part at all.
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With the invocation, voice of the chain master, it allows you to telepathically link to your familiar if its on the same plane of existence and for you to speak through your familiar. One question i had is, if I didn't have this, would i only be able to perceive through their sense for 100 feet?
Yes exactly.
The Warlock Pact feature works exactly like the spell Find Familiar, except where it specifies it's different.
Those differences being:
I doesn't count as a spell known
It can summon: imp, psuedodragon, quiasit, or sprite in addition to those from the spell Find Familiar
The Warlock can sacrifice an attack to allow the familiar to use it's Reaction to attack on the Warlock's turn.
Those being the same still:
Takes 1 hr to cast the spell and costs 10gp to cast the spell
It would still have it's own initiative and act independently.
If it's within 100' of the Warlock is can communicate telepathically and as an Action the Warlock can give it it's senses to see through the senses of the familiar.
That said Voice of the Chain Master as an Invocation further modifies it and allows this communication to take place at infinite distance as long as both the familiar and the Warlock are on the same plane.
It's an amazing ability.
so in short, i can send my familiar a mile out and see what it sees, but only with the invocation?
read the invocation: voice of the chain master carefully, it supplants some benefits over the find familiar spell... for instance, seeing and hearing through your familiar doesn't leave you blind and deaf (since it doesn't say it does)
I would argue that it still leaves you blind and deaf. Just because it doesn't say it leaves you blind and deaf, doesn't mean that's the case. Its already stated in the spell that this is the effect, so I would assume that it would need to plainly write out that it doesn't leave you blind and deaf
It's worded in a way that leaves interpretation rather vague. I believe the intent is to modify the spell Find Familiar to increase range and allow the caster to speak through the familiar. No one will debate that these features are not granted.
However the wording can be taken without considering the limitations of the original spell. This could be interpreted to not require an action to look through the familiar, no longer limit the duration of that effect to one round, and/or not limit the Caster's other senses for that duration. Verify with the DM how this is handled at their table before making any choices.
The latter interpretation has some distinct and potent implications including the game altering point, a Warlock who's pet has blindsight has blindsight himself.
Extended Signature
It's a real investment to spend an invocation on an ability, and giving players access to Blindsight or other increased senses won't alter the game to the point of breaking anything, so I would probably allow the latter interpretation in a normal game.
Extended Signature
Exceptions are explicit. Voice of the Chain Master doesn't say you're no longer blind and deaf while using your familiar's senses, so you're still blind and deaf while using your familiar's senses. All it does is extend the range for communication/senses and let you speak through them.
How about this, is the phrase "as long as you are on the same plane of existence" an exception to time, distance, or both?
Anyway the feature doesn't directly reference Find Familiar so it can be interpreted as not being an exception to that spell. However it has Pact of the Chain as a requirement and so refers to the spell indirectly.
Extended Signature
I would view it as replacing the relevant parts with what they actually do say, and since it's an Invocation I would think it does more than allow you to speak through your familiar.
Keep in mind the Warlock doesn't get blindsight, he sees through his familiar's eyes with blindsight.
If you only cast Find Familiar (as a warlock or wizard) then you are blind and deaf, but I would allow the Invocation to override this part with what it says under Voice of the Chain Master:
VOICE OF THE CHAIN MASTER Prerequisite: Pact of the Chain feature
You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar's senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence. Additionally. while perceiving through your familiar's senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech.
Because it doesn't say there that you're blind and deaf, I would rule that it overrides that drawback from the Find Familiar spell. Otherwise all the Invocation would be doing is giving you a better range to communicate and allowing you to speak with your own voice... which isn't much considering the Imp, Quasit, and Sprite can all speak anyway.
When considered as an augmentation of the spell Find Familiar would read as follows:
"You gain the service of a familiar, ...
While your familiar is within 100 feet of you,you can communicate with it telepathically (as long as you are on the same plane of existence). Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hearsuntil the start of your next turn(as long as you are on the same plane of existence?), gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses. (Additionally. while perceiving through your familiar's senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech.)..."
The implication of this interpretation is situational. You must rescue the princess from some deep dark maze dungeon. You summon your familiar as a spider and it scouts out the entire maze going completely unnoticed. It locates the princess and opens a line of communication with her. Before you even approach the gate. A very powerful, yet situationally beneficial ability. I'd give it the added versatility of removing my question mark and the consequence of deafness and blindness, but I accept that that's a house ruling rather than the intended function.
Extended Signature
I was looking at it more as each section of the find familiar spell being replaced by anything from the warlock boon, pact of the chain, or invocation, voice of the chain master, as replacing that section... so that the invocation had more power and worth:
FIND FAMILIAR 1st-level conjuration (ritual) Casting Time: 1 hour Range: 10 feet Components: V. S, M (10 gp worth of charcoal, incense, and herbs that must be consumed by fire in a brass brazier) Duration: Instantaneous
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel. When you cast the spell, you can choose one of the normal forms for your familiar or one of the following special forms: imp, pseudodragon, quasit, or sprite. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the familiar has the statistics of the chosen form, though it is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast. Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn.
A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal.Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack of its own. When the familiar drops to 0 hit points, it disappears, leaving behind no physical form. It reappears after you cast this spell againWhile your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn. gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar's senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence. Additionally. while perceiving through your familiar's senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech. As an action, you can temporarily dismiss your familiar. It disappears into a pocket dimension where it awaits your summons. Alternatively, you can dismiss it forever. As an action while it is temporarily dismissed,you can cause it to reappear in any unoccupied space within 30 feet of you. You can't have more than one familiar at a time. If you cast this spell while you already have a familiar, you instead cause it to adopt a new form. Choose one of the forms from the above list. Your familiar transforms into the chosen creature. Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it. If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll.
That's not how the rules work:
There is nothing in Voice of the Chain Master that contradicts you being blind or deaf. New rules don't create exceptions by omission; they create them explicitly.
Your reading also scratches out the action cost and duration of using your familiar's senses. That's obviously not the intended reading.
Also because something is left out, you don't infer it is left in. Voice of the Chain Master doesn't say you are blind or deaf when using your familiars senses. Neither does casting Fireball.
To infer you are blind and deaf because it was omitted from Voice of the Chain Master... is the same as inferring you are blind and deaf from casting Fireball.
And your own argument is that an explicit rule overrides a general rule... would support that you use the senses the way they are written in Voice of the Chain Master and not the way they appear in the Find Familiar spell.
In one place it says you are blind and deaf when using the senses, and in another it doesn't say that. When selecting Voice of the Chain Master you would use that rule over the other.
But always check with your DM, they have final say. You may not want to take Voice of the Chain Master if it really dosn't do much of anything.
Fireball doesn't build on top of Find Familiar the way Voice of the Chain Master does, so no, they're not the same.
I can see how it could be interpreted your way, but as I said that makes an Invocation that you can't take unless you meet it's prerequisite (which means it's more powerful than a regular Invocation that any warlock can take... only pact of the chain warlocks can take Voice of the Chain Master), only extends the range of using the familiars senses and let's you speak with your voice.
In my, and many other games, allowing it to be used without the blind and deaf penalty make it actually worth taking. Rule of Cool.
Having a prerequisite doesn't always mean it's meant to be more powerful, sometimes it's just there to protect players from themselves. Voice of the Chain Master is useless if you don't have a familiar, so putting the prerequisite on it prevents players from taking something that's useless to them. That's the same reason the Elemental Adept feat has "Prerequisite: The ability to cast at least one spell."
I don't have a problem with people doing things because of Rule of Cool, I just want to make sure the Rules as Written are clear.
Well... the rules as written is 5e are not clear. That is why there has been so much errata published since they have been released. And there are also entire sites dedicated to answering rules questions... simply because they are not clear. Sometimes they're meant to be taken RAW and other times RAI.
The rule we're debating can be interpreted to cherry pick very specific parts of find familiar and replace them with voice of the chain master... or you can override all the parts of find familiar that deal with senses and replace them with the voice of the chain master rules for using senses.
RAW are not clear on that. If they were, what would we be debating?
Unfortunately the rule on this one is not written clearly... It should read something like: "you may use your action to perceive through your familiar's senses as described in the spell Find Familiar without being within 100 feet of your familiar if you are on the same plane of existence. Also, something about your voice."
But it does not use that kind of wording, and so, is open to interpretation by the DM.
Extended Signature
Sage Advice, https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/696804013501591553
The invocation enhances the power which otherwise works as per the spell. The spell lets you use only one set of senses at a time. No language in the invocation modifies that part at all.