I have a Spell concept that I was wondering would be considered Over Powered and if i could tweak it or just get helpful suggestions, but first let me give you some back story...
My Female Tiefling Warlock blah blah blah i haven't fleshed out the character details, but more of the Patron she receives her power from. This Patron is a Powerful Deity called the Black Phoenix. Okay so this deity gives my character a few powerful of perks. One of those perks being a level 1 spell.
Scared Flame of the Black Phoenix:
Description: Smoldering Black flame that surrounds the creatures hands like a burning shadow emitting a Heat or Sickening Aura (No actual effect just flavor.)
On hit a creature suffers (1d8+(CHA mod))+(1d6) Necrotic/Fire (Can change the type after long rest) /// Grants an additional 1d8 force + 1d6 (Necro/Fire) per level cast.
This spell is always a critical strike, unless the creature is immune to critical's. Additionally Depending on the level cast the multiplayer increases.
1st-4th Level: x2 (CHA damage is also multiplied)
5th-8th Level: x3 (CHA damage is also multiplied)
9th Level: x4 (CHA damage is also multiplied)
Condition: If a creature is reduced to 0 Hp they must make a CON saving throw (8 + proficiency) or the targets body is destroyed. Furthermore, if a creature is destroyed by this effect the Warlock can cast another spell this round.
So that's it essentially! let me know what you think I could change. I'm planning on presenting this whole idea and concept to my DM for our next Campaign. Thanks for your ideas/help in advanced!
I'm wondering, you're breaking/bending the rules on criticals rather significantly. I feel it is rather too powerful considering you deal more damage AND you get an automatic critical AND the multiplier increases AND the static Cha modifier is multiplied as well. As well as breaking the standard casting time of 1 action for spells of this type (most attack spells have 1 action as casting time). It's somewhat like a buffed-up disintegrate spell yet more complex for some reason.
Is just seems somewhat convoluted and a strange spell which is way more powerful than existing possibilities. Not that many creatures are immune to criticals, so basically you always do WAY more damage than similar spells. The whole "you can cast another spell this round" is a bit unclear; if it means you can do it for free (you get your action back) that's insanely overpowered.
This puts it into perspective that is an insane amount of Damage. I should go back to the drawing board and do the math. Seems like i got ahead of myself. However, i'm not scraping the idea.
i like the idea of a spell that crits but takes a longer time to flourish. High risk high reward sort of thing. what could I do to keep this spell on par with the normal spells yet still stay unique to my own ideas?
I have a Spell concept that I was wondering would be considered Over Powered and if i could tweak it or just get helpful suggestions, but first let me give you some back story...
My Female Tiefling Warlock blah blah blah i haven't fleshed out the character details, but more of the Patron she receives her power from. This Patron is a Powerful Deity called the Black Phoenix. Okay so this deity gives my character a few powerful of perks. One of those perks being a level 1 spell.
Scared Flame of the Black Phoenix:
Description: Smoldering Black flame that surrounds the creatures hands like a burning shadow emitting a Heat or Sickening Aura (No actual effect just flavor.)
On hit a creature suffers (1d8+(CHA mod))+(1d6) Necrotic/Fire (Can change the type after long rest) /// Grants an additional 1d8 force + 1d6 (Necro/Fire) per level cast.
This spell is always a critical strike, unless the creature is immune to critical's. Additionally Depending on the level cast the multiplayer increases.
1st-4th Level: x2 (CHA damage is also multiplied)
5th-8th Level: x3 (CHA damage is also multiplied)
9th Level: x4 (CHA damage is also multiplied)
Condition: If a creature is reduced to 0 Hp they must make a CON saving throw (8 + proficiency) or the targets body is destroyed. Furthermore, if a creature is destroyed by this effect the Warlock can cast another spell this round.
So that's it essentially! let me know what you think I could change. I'm planning on presenting this whole idea and concept to my DM for our next Campaign. Thanks for your ideas/help in advanced!
Wow, just wow.
:cracks knuckles:
Let's see what we have here, a long lasting, concentration spell that does what seems at first glance to be good damage, but ribbon text says it *always* crits. Further, if the spell is Upcast it is capable of doing even more damage than would ordinarily be apparent.
If I can I'd like to address the elements in light of the only other published Concentration Offensive level 1 spell I could find: Witch Bolt. There might be others, but for sake of argument we will start there.
Witch Bolt has a fixed 30 foot range, your spell doubles that. Moreover, it states that if at any time the target or the caster moves beyond the 30 feet the spell ends. There is also the part about ending when the target can no longer been seen by the caster. My read so far is that this spell needs to have reduced range of effect.
Components: Witch Bolt has a VSM with the M being a twig from a lightning struck tree (very specific item here), Your spell has only a simple V and S. Given the potency you want out of the spell a comparable Material cost should be associated. I hate to draw in another spell, but Chromatic Orb requires a 50gp Diamond to cast it, and that spell can if Upcast do extreme damage. I would suggest finding a thematic element to serve as the Material Component .
Damage: And this is where you lost me. Force Damage, one of the few types of damage that most Mobs are going to be vulnerable to, and you choose it as the main part of the Spell Damage. I know Eldritch Blast is Force Damage and it is a Cantrip that deals the same Die Code, but you have added your CHA modifier to the damage as well. IIRC, Warlocks need an Invocation to do that to their EB. But it gets worse, Fire or Necrotic Damage are also applied to the target, you make no comment about how the choice is made so it seems players could just hot swap it based on a current foe. Ummm..no. Way over the top in potency. Add to that the D6 die code assigned and it just gets mind boggling. But, I digress, compared to Witch Bolt which does 1d12 damage as a level one spell with no secondary effects, like say Ice Knife, this spell is too potent for its level. I'd say choose Force or Fire or Necrotic for this Continuous effect spell to rein it in.
Damage Part Two: The Electric Bugaloo or as I can it--Can I Critical Hit with a Spell? Answer: Why yes, yes you can. If you roll to hit and roll a Natural 20 that hit is a Critical and would follow all the rules entailed. As such, auto-critting this spell is way out of line, as it defeats the purpose of the Critical Hit rules. Moreover, multiplying the modifier just is not done. Now, it might only add from 2-5 damage to the total pool, but that is irrespective of the fact that mods just don't get multiplied. Next, just because you are Upcasting the spell does not mean that the Critical Multiplier should adjust. Warlock spells are Automatically Upcast! Shiver...no just no. Back the Witch Bolt touch stone, can you crit with it, yes. That would enable you to roll good damage on the hit, but that Critical Damage would not apply to the continuous damage should the target not manage to escape the range on its turn.
Disintegration Effect. If that was the only thing this 1st level effect did was poof away a dead body it would be okay, but as a it stands it is like a final insult to the character. "No, you shall not be Raised from Death, because I have used this spell and now you need a 1000gp Diamond and a Really Powerful Cleric. Good Luck with that." I get how you might think it is thematic to just Ash your enemies but you even placed the Saving throw at below what most Saves are at "8+Proficiency Mod" Back to Witch Bolt and we see no secondary condition applied.
Lastly, that bit about regaining not only your spent spell slot and getting a free cast is unbalancing. Warlocks refresh on Short Rests, which balances their lack of slots. Further, casting rules state that you can cast two spells in one round, one of them must be a Cantrip. If you want this to be your Locks bread and Butter, I suggest looking back at Eldritch Blast and it's associated Invocations because what you have created here is just not kosher for a 1st level spell.
Hi Velroc, welcome to the D&D Beyond forums! I like the idea of the concept of a delayed spell. However, at first glance it appears this spell is trying to do too many things at once - it has so many unique points that they could be spread out to form several spells.
If it were me, I would simplify it a lot. Some spells are more complicated than others, but level 1 spells and straight damage spells don't tend to have a great deal of complexity - you already have to involve your spell attack modifier, an attack roll, the enemy's AC, the enemy's resistances/vulnerabilities (with 2-3 damage types possible in one casting of this spell, resistances/vulnerabilities are an even bigger factor here as the DM will have to check multiple damage type). In short, the more you add to a spell, the more the game slows down and the harder it is to balance it.
I'd start by identifying the core aspects of the spell. Anything you trim out, you can keep handy for the next spells you design. Personally, this spell appears at a base level to have three major components it requires as part of its identity:
It needs to:
Deal damage
Have a charge-up time
Fit with the theme of the associated patron
And honestly, looking at that, I think that would be enough.
I would trim out the ability to have it deal multiple damage types in one casting. Limit it to deal entirely fire or entirely necrotic damage (player choice), with the phrasing on their choice inspired from chromatic orb's text. Alternatively, just pick one of those - pehaps offer a second spell that deals the other type if necessary.
I would trim out the ability to have it let you cast another spell instantly. It breaks the 'action economy' (what you're allowed to do in one turn), it breaks the rule on only casting 1 spell on your turn, and cheapens the point of having a one-turn charge up if you're going to have a fair chance of casting something else instantly to make up for it.
I'd also trim out it destroying the body. There are a fair few reasons for avoiding your players having this as a DM, but as a player you may wish to think about your loot being accidentally annihilated. It's also just extra baggage on an early level spell.
As a 1st level spell, the charge-up time is more than enough of a unique feature to make it stand out - at least in my opinion. I like that as it is, although I would add that information clearly to its description as opposed to just putting it briefly in the spell's 'type'.
As for the damage numbers, look at existing spells. Given that this takes two turns, it has to be above average. However, given that it only takes one spell slot, it cannot be too high. Also, since it has the ability (at present) to deal at least two types of damage, there are very few creatures that will ever be able to resist both, thus bypassing the defensive mechanics of many creatures and meaning it will need its damage lowered slightly to be balanced against that. I'd vaguely estimate that you should aim for 19-22 damage on average with its first level of casting. I would tentatively suggest 4d10.
As for the scaling part of damage, spells typically only gain 1 dice per spell slot, and of the type of dice they use for damage. In this instance, with the above example, 1d10 per level of spell slot. Only one spell to my knowledge increases by more than 1 of its damage dice (2d6 as opposed to 1d6) per spell slot, and it's the best scaling damage spell in the game, and not a good representation of how to design one in general (for the record, it's scorching ray). You could do that, and increase the damage dice by a greater number, but then you'd start to risk eclipsing many other spells and leaving them redundant.
It's difficult to balance, given the charge-up time. It might take some trial and error to fine-tune it.
In the 'late game', as you reach higher levels, it will generally always be better to cast a cantrip + normal spell than use this delayed spell, since cantrips keep on scaling. Eldritch Blast is 1d10, which is 5.5 average damage, + Charisma modifier with the right warlock Invocation. Generally, it will be tough to beat it. The niche for this spell after the early levels may be to only use it when you know you're about to enter the fight, and use it as an opener. I feel like you want this to be your go-to attack, and it can be for several of the lower levels, but I don't see a great, balanced design to make it work as efficiently at every single level 1-20, I also think it would eventually become very dull since it discourages variety. Perhaps your patron can introduce another higher level spell at some point? I think that would be the better way to proceed, rather than break the spell-scaling system with one exponentially growing spell.
I hope this helps, best of luck with your spell!
Edit: I forgot to comment on the critical hit part. You could say that, but then you lose the chance to ever crit with it, which I feel is a little lacking in fun - effectively, no hit is a crit with this spell if they're all crits. However, if you did do that, you'd need to aim for just over half the damage I mentioned above (9-11). The other part of this is that it's more math every time - you roll damage, then you have to double it. You could just roll bigger/more dice in the first place. Also, as Hawksmoor above me points out, the critical hit modifier should not be touched - it's far too powerful.
Overall, to me, the spell should look something like this:
Your hands begin to glow with smoldering black flames as you charge up the spell. When you cast this spell, you choose fire or necrotic damage, and begin concentrating. On your next turn, you may use your action to make a ranged spell attack against a creature within 60 feet. On a hit, the target takes 4d10 damage of the type you chose when you began casting this spell.
After you cast this spell, the spell ends at the end of your next turn, after making a ranged spell attack as part of this spell, or when your concentration on it is broken.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d10 for each slot level above 1st.
Ok good points all around. I had no idea Witch Bolt was a thing. Good material! Lmao I have a feeling my DM would have had a serious talk about what monster I created In like two sessions. Thank you for your insight.
Yes! This is perfect! I’m definitely taking this! I can’t help that I’m one of those people who get overly imaginative and attempt to break all the rules. I probably gave most of you that feeling of “Ohhh god no just no!” Haha I’m sorry but yes I shall add more flavor and not mess with the numbers of this new spell. Thank you for your very detailed synopsis. Being new to this it’s hard to see what’s considered game breaking and what feels unfair. Again thank you!
Yes! This is perfect! I’m definitely taking this! I can’t help that I’m one of those people who get overly imaginative and attempt to break all the rules. I probably gave most of you that feeling of “Ohhh god no just no!” Haha I’m sorry but yes I shall add more flavor and not mess with the numbers of this new spell. Thank you for your very detailed synopsis. Being new to this it’s hard to see what’s considered game breaking and what feels unfair. Again thank you!
I think VillanTheory gave an excellent option that suits your needs very well. And about your post, at least you were willing to put it up for feedback without going in with a "you guys don't understand, this spell is great!"-attitude. Welcome to the DnD forums, luckily a place that's not as toxic as many other gaming fora :)
Hello fellow DnD players and enthusiasts!
I have a Spell concept that I was wondering would be considered Over Powered and if i could tweak it or just get helpful suggestions, but first let me give you some back story...
My Female Tiefling Warlock blah blah blah i haven't fleshed out the character details, but more of the Patron she receives her power from. This Patron is a Powerful Deity called the Black Phoenix. Okay so this deity gives my character a few powerful of perks. One of those perks being a level 1 spell.
Scared Flame of the Black Phoenix:
Description: Smoldering Black flame that surrounds the creatures hands like a burning shadow emitting a Heat or Sickening Aura (No actual effect just flavor.)
Type: Concentration (Turn 1 incantation / Turn 2 Attack)
Range: Ranged Spell attack / 60ft.
Casting Time: 1 Action
Components: V, S
School: Evocation
Damage/Effect: Force + Fire (Or Necrotic)
On hit a creature suffers (1d8+(CHA mod))+(1d6) Necrotic/Fire (Can change the type after long rest) /// Grants an additional 1d8 force + 1d6 (Necro/Fire) per level cast.
This spell is always a critical strike, unless the creature is immune to critical's. Additionally Depending on the level cast the multiplayer increases.
1st-4th Level: x2 (CHA damage is also multiplied)
5th-8th Level: x3 (CHA damage is also multiplied)
9th Level: x4 (CHA damage is also multiplied)
Condition: If a creature is reduced to 0 Hp they must make a CON saving throw (8 + proficiency) or the targets body is destroyed. Furthermore, if a creature is destroyed by this effect the Warlock can cast another spell this round.
So that's it essentially! let me know what you think I could change. I'm planning on presenting this whole idea and concept to my DM for our next Campaign. Thanks for your ideas/help in advanced!
I'm wondering, you're breaking/bending the rules on criticals rather significantly. I feel it is rather too powerful considering you deal more damage AND you get an automatic critical AND the multiplier increases AND the static Cha modifier is multiplied as well. As well as breaking the standard casting time of 1 action for spells of this type (most attack spells have 1 action as casting time). It's somewhat like a buffed-up disintegrate spell yet more complex for some reason.
Is just seems somewhat convoluted and a strange spell which is way more powerful than existing possibilities. Not that many creatures are immune to criticals, so basically you always do WAY more damage than similar spells. The whole "you can cast another spell this round" is a bit unclear; if it means you can do it for free (you get your action back) that's insanely overpowered.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Did some math, it quickly goes from stupid powerful to gamebreaking proportions:
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
This puts it into perspective that is an insane amount of Damage. I should go back to the drawing board and do the math. Seems like i got ahead of myself. However, i'm not scraping the idea.
i like the idea of a spell that crits but takes a longer time to flourish. High risk high reward sort of thing. what could I do to keep this spell on par with the normal spells yet still stay unique to my own ideas?
Hi Velroc, welcome to the D&D Beyond forums! I like the idea of the concept of a delayed spell. However, at first glance it appears this spell is trying to do too many things at once - it has so many unique points that they could be spread out to form several spells.
If it were me, I would simplify it a lot. Some spells are more complicated than others, but level 1 spells and straight damage spells don't tend to have a great deal of complexity - you already have to involve your spell attack modifier, an attack roll, the enemy's AC, the enemy's resistances/vulnerabilities (with 2-3 damage types possible in one casting of this spell, resistances/vulnerabilities are an even bigger factor here as the DM will have to check multiple damage type). In short, the more you add to a spell, the more the game slows down and the harder it is to balance it.
I'd start by identifying the core aspects of the spell. Anything you trim out, you can keep handy for the next spells you design. Personally, this spell appears at a base level to have three major components it requires as part of its identity:
It needs to:
And honestly, looking at that, I think that would be enough.
I would trim out the ability to have it deal multiple damage types in one casting. Limit it to deal entirely fire or entirely necrotic damage (player choice), with the phrasing on their choice inspired from chromatic orb's text. Alternatively, just pick one of those - pehaps offer a second spell that deals the other type if necessary.
I would trim out the ability to have it let you cast another spell instantly. It breaks the 'action economy' (what you're allowed to do in one turn), it breaks the rule on only casting 1 spell on your turn, and cheapens the point of having a one-turn charge up if you're going to have a fair chance of casting something else instantly to make up for it.
I'd also trim out it destroying the body. There are a fair few reasons for avoiding your players having this as a DM, but as a player you may wish to think about your loot being accidentally annihilated. It's also just extra baggage on an early level spell.
As a 1st level spell, the charge-up time is more than enough of a unique feature to make it stand out - at least in my opinion. I like that as it is, although I would add that information clearly to its description as opposed to just putting it briefly in the spell's 'type'.
As for the damage numbers, look at existing spells. Given that this takes two turns, it has to be above average. However, given that it only takes one spell slot, it cannot be too high. Also, since it has the ability (at present) to deal at least two types of damage, there are very few creatures that will ever be able to resist both, thus bypassing the defensive mechanics of many creatures and meaning it will need its damage lowered slightly to be balanced against that. I'd vaguely estimate that you should aim for 19-22 damage on average with its first level of casting. I would tentatively suggest 4d10.
As for the scaling part of damage, spells typically only gain 1 dice per spell slot, and of the type of dice they use for damage. In this instance, with the above example, 1d10 per level of spell slot. Only one spell to my knowledge increases by more than 1 of its damage dice (2d6 as opposed to 1d6) per spell slot, and it's the best scaling damage spell in the game, and not a good representation of how to design one in general (for the record, it's scorching ray). You could do that, and increase the damage dice by a greater number, but then you'd start to risk eclipsing many other spells and leaving them redundant.
It's difficult to balance, given the charge-up time. It might take some trial and error to fine-tune it.
In the 'late game', as you reach higher levels, it will generally always be better to cast a cantrip + normal spell than use this delayed spell, since cantrips keep on scaling. Eldritch Blast is 1d10, which is 5.5 average damage, + Charisma modifier with the right warlock Invocation. Generally, it will be tough to beat it. The niche for this spell after the early levels may be to only use it when you know you're about to enter the fight, and use it as an opener. I feel like you want this to be your go-to attack, and it can be for several of the lower levels, but I don't see a great, balanced design to make it work as efficiently at every single level 1-20, I also think it would eventually become very dull since it discourages variety. Perhaps your patron can introduce another higher level spell at some point? I think that would be the better way to proceed, rather than break the spell-scaling system with one exponentially growing spell.
I hope this helps, best of luck with your spell!
Edit: I forgot to comment on the critical hit part. You could say that, but then you lose the chance to ever crit with it, which I feel is a little lacking in fun - effectively, no hit is a crit with this spell if they're all crits. However, if you did do that, you'd need to aim for just over half the damage I mentioned above (9-11). The other part of this is that it's more math every time - you roll damage, then you have to double it. You could just roll bigger/more dice in the first place. Also, as Hawksmoor above me points out, the critical hit modifier should not be touched - it's far too powerful.
Overall, to me, the spell should look something like this:
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Ok good points all around. I had no idea Witch Bolt was a thing. Good material! Lmao I have a feeling my DM would have had a serious talk about what monster I created In like two sessions. Thank you for your insight.
Yes! This is perfect! I’m definitely taking this! I can’t help that I’m one of those people who get overly imaginative and attempt to break all the rules. I probably gave most of you that feeling of “Ohhh god no just no!” Haha I’m sorry but yes I shall add more flavor and not mess with the numbers of this new spell. Thank you for your very detailed synopsis. Being new to this it’s hard to see what’s considered game breaking and what feels unfair. Again thank you!
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature