I suggest taking a look at the poison section of the 3.5 book "Arms and Equipment Guide" if you can get your hands on it. The poison rules and processes in it will help you with homebrewing some rules for your player. (It's what I did with a player that wanted to get into poisons.)
One word of advice though, there is probably a reason poison rules are wonky. If you make them too easy or too cheap to get, or not that illegal in your world, the next thing you know you'll have just about every player in your party coating their weapons for almost every battle. Even just having some "advanced" basic poison that does an extra 2d6 or 2d8 damage can throw off CR/encounter building if your bad guys aren't immune.
I’m of the mind that poison should simulate “real world” application. So, someone poisoned usually doesn’t “keel over” from damage, unless we are talking a ludicris dose in one application (some of the more deadly snakes in the world). So, my take would be a cumulative effect unless there is a save, or a save for half. So, poison should look like this:
First hit with poison: take 2D6 (save for half DC 10
still in system? Take 3D6 (save for half DC 13)
”reaches vitals” Take 4D6 (save for half DC 15)
This method also gives those with medicine something to do besides save you from Death Saves, as a successful medicine check should stop successive rolls for damage. Use the same DCs as above for the Medicine checks.
I'm trying to develop a poison-using Ranger subclass right now. (Can you tell the default alignment of it?)
I appreciate the thoughts that many have contributed here. There are a lot of balance issues to think about and I guess I'm contributing a few of my own.
I remember in 2nd edition AD&D when the poison condition could easily kill a PC in less than an hour unless someone had Slow Poison or Neutralize Poison prepared. Not coincidentally, 5th edition no longer has the Slow Poison spell. I guess that's not a coincidence b/c the devs seem to dislike save-or-die abilities being used. The ones that do remain seem to fairly high level. Disadvantage seems to be something that is fairly easy to work around as well, so most of the time, the poisoned condition is mostly more of an inconvenience that a real source of in-game tension building.
Is this to reduce the lethality of the gameworld for PCs played by folks new to D&D 5e? Or did they decide that it slowed down combat too much? Reduce the accounting involved?
Real world situations are what we usually draw inspiration from. While it's disappointing that poison use seems rather restricted by rules a written, would making poison more realistic break the game or at least necessitate that every party traveled with a Cleric or Druid?
I'm trying to develop a poison-using Ranger subclass right now. (Can you tell the default alignment of it?)
I love having my characters use poison when I'm a player and working poison into campaigns as a DM.
If you're interested, in my Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, among the many poison-centric subclass options across all classes, there are three for Rangers:
Slithering Sentinel Conclave: fully developed new Ranger subclass restricted to Yuan-ti
Variant for all Rangers' greater favorite enemy: Venomous creatures option
Expanded options for Beast conclave to include a variety of venomous animal companions
Also new poison-focused backgrounds, dozens of new poisons, expanded rules for harvesting poisons from monsters and the environment and for crafting poisons, tables presenting poison as treasure, etc...
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Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
Meh... well, I basically treat poison like its a magical potion, and can be crafted as making magical items rules in Xanathar's. The damage-dealing poisons I eliminate the saving throw on, while other poisons I allowed the DC to bump up based on your Proficiency if you can use a poisoner's kit.
It always struck me as extremely odd that the basic poison needed a successful hit AND a save AND damage rolls. That's three rolls - nothing else in the game does that. You either have an attack roll, or the opponent rolls a save.
Poisons are not Magical, and as such are not nullified by a Beholder's Gaze, unlike a Potion of Healing (of any variety) amongst other types of Potions. Also, Poisons are not detected by the Spell Detect Magic, unlike Potions, and instead have a separate Spell (Detect Disease & Poison) for their detection.
Potions are so expensive because they have a specific purpose, and usually need to be made using exact methods, such as growing a Rare Plant in specific conditions before harvesting the result followed by finally refining the harvested materials into a specific concoction (the Belladonna Plant is full of useful information for Alchemy & Poisons for a quick reference).
The DC wouldn't be affected by anyone's Proficiency due to their skill in application not having any effect on the strength of the Poison, nor would their Proficiency have any effect on the ability of their Immune System resisting the Poison.
The Attack Roll is to see if your Weapon hits, The Save is to see how your body reacts to the Poison, and the Damage is how much it hurt. Almost every single Poisonous Monster follows this pattern, such as the Giant Wolf Spider, and the Phase Spider, as well as Poisonous Snakes, Scorpions, even the Drow Poison that the Drow NPCs use follow the same ruleset of Attack + Save + Damage. Ingested Poisons even have a chance to be Detected before they are ingested, so that one also has 3 Rolls.
I have no idea how you consider a slow and meticulous process such as the Medieval methods of creating & refining Poisons into useful quantities is considered worth roughly $25 per 8 hours of work in a Economy where a Blacksmith that is getting Military Contracts to outfit Guards, Armies, & Adventurers is only making $5 per 8 hours of work (1 Gold = 100 Copper, thus 1 Gold = $1). You're destabilizing your economy on a drastic scale and have no idea the ramifications of such things, as you've just made a simple Venomous Snake worth a few hundred gold dead, more alive. If they find a Phase Spider they'll be able to probably afford some Plate Mail from the single dose they'd harvest, and heaven help you if they capture it, or worse, befriend it! Imagine them harvesting even 200+ GP per Day, using Drow Poison for measurement, and tell me that's not going to be a problem for you later. Because Phase Spider Venom is extremely useful for its Neurotoxin Properties, as it makes a perfect Anesthetic for any Medical Procedure if you Heal them afterwards without curing their Poison Status. It's also useful for pretending to be Dead, should the need arise, so long as they don't do anything to you before you wake up an hour later. They'll be able to easily find a Buyer, hell they could sell it to a Temple!
There's PLENTY of Save or Die abilities; Shadow, Weight, Specter, Intellect Devourer, etc.
Shadows & Specters are easily kill-able by a few Lv 3 Players, but also easily can Perma-Kill a Lv1 in 1 shot. Unless you think having less than 1 Strength or less than 1 Max HP is survivable, because nothing says survivable like being incapable of expanding your Chest so you can Breath (0 Strength), yes that is actually a thing, that's why it is Federally Illegal for Police to jam their Knee into your upper back; because they were tired of people DYING, so they made a Federal Law against it, just like the Law against using a Taser on a Person's Face because it causes Seizures in addition to the risk of going into V-Tac (Heart Attack) that simply being Tasered carries.
There's even the ability to buy Pale Tincture, which is explicitly Save 7 times or Die, and is only 250 GP.
You seem to forget that the majority of Parties actually don't focus on counteracting Poisons, and will usually forget entirely that Poison is a thing until they need an Antidote. That being said, if they wanted to be consistently prepared, they'll want someone proficient in Herbalism Kit, as they're the ones capable of not only creating Potions of Healing, but also Antitoxins, amongst other things.
I suggest taking a look at the poison section of the 3.5 book "Arms and Equipment Guide" if you can get your hands on it. The poison rules and processes in it will help you with Homebrewing some rules for your player. (It's what I did with a player that wanted to get into poisons.)
One word of advice though, there is probably a reason poison rules are wonky. If you make them too easy or too cheap to get, or not that illegal in your world, the next thing you know you'll have just about every player in your party coating their weapons for almost every battle. Even just having some "advanced" basic poison that does an extra 2d6 or 2d8 damage can throw off CR/encounter building if your bad guys aren't immune.
Well said! You are indeed correct! I have an Assassin Rogue in my Party! So, I have an Exacerbated situation, where I'm not only dealing with Poison, but it's almost always going to be a Crit during the first Round, so the 3d8 Phase Spider Venom suddenly jumps to 6d8, and we have an entire Phase Spider & Giant Wolf Spider Nest that we're clearing out, so he's likely going to be harvesting a LOT of poison. I'm even reducing the Damage to simulate "Loss of Efficacy" (as well as make it easier to apply to Ammunition), it's ORIGINALLY 4d8, which would double to 8d8 with a Crit!
Here's what I have calculated for the two Poisons I'm dealing with here:
Phase Spider
Source: 4d8 (DC 11)
Weapon: 3d8 (DC 11)
Ammunition: 1d8 (x3) (DC 11)
Giant Wolf Spider
Source: 2d6 (DC 11)
Weapon: 1d12 (DC 11)
Ammunition: 1d4 (x3) (DC 11)
The reason why I allowed the Giant Wolf Spider a smaller drop in Damage is primarily due to the low initial starting point. You'll also notice that the Ammunition isn't entirely OP with 3 applications of the Weapon damage to it per 4 oz. Vial (1 "Dose") of the stuff. The Giant Wolf Spider Venom (DC 11) is actually on par with the 100 GP Basic Poison (DC 10), except I insulated my Economy by having it be a questionable acquisition, which is a flat (Value/2) in addition to the compounded (Value/2) Selling Penalty, so they'll only be offered roughly ((Value/2)/2)=25 GP for the Vial of Giant Wolf Spider Venom, and I doubt they'll even WANT to sell the Phase Spider Venom, because those things have been annihilating the Party with their Venom (a few of which are even PCWerewolves, so their Invincible Pride has been wounded by the turn of events), and because it's actually potent enough to be useful.
I have an Assassin Rogue in my Party! So, I have an Exacerbated situation, where I'm not only dealing with Poison, but it's almost always going to be a Crit during the first Round, so the 3d8 Phase Spider Venom suddenly jumps to 6d8, and we have an entire Phase Spider & Giant Wolf Spider Nest that we're clearing out, so he's likely going to be harvesting a LOT of poison. I'm even reducing the Damage to simulate "Loss of Efficacy" (as well as make it easier to apply to Ammunition), it's ORIGINALLY 4d8, which would double to 8d8 with a Crit!
My take on it is that the poison on a weapon or ammo wouldn't deal extra damage on a critical hit. To me, the critical hit damage reflects a more grievous wound from a perfectly executed weapon blow. The poison is either introduced through the wound or it's not, but there are no existing mechanics in the game that contemplate reduced damage if only a little poison gets in the wound or increased damage for a lot getting in. If the poison enters the target's body through the injury, the target take the full poison damage, no more, no less, even if the injury itself is critical. By the same token, I wouldn't reduce the poison damage if the weapon damage roll for a non-critical hit is a 1. The poison still gets in the wound. Again, that's just my take on it; others may feel differently...
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Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
My take on it is that the poison on a weapon or ammo wouldn't deal extra damage on a critical hit. To me, the critical hit damage reflects a more grievous wound from a perfectly executed weapon blow. The poison is either introduced through the wound or it's not, but there are no existing mechanics in the game that contemplate reduced damage if only a little poison gets in the wound or increased damage for a lot getting in. If the poison enters the target's body through the injury, the target take the full poison damage, no more, no less, even if the injury itself is critical. By the same token, I wouldn't reduce the poison damage if the weapon damage roll for a non-critical hit is a 1. The poison still gets in the wound. Again, that's just my take on it; others may feel differently...
I would add, though, that it DOES makes sense to me that a monster like a phase spider would deal bonus poison damage on a critical hit, since there you're talking about a natural weapon, and on a critical hit, one could imagine the monster's poison glands (or whatever) continuing to pump massive amounts of additional poison into the target's body. With a poison-coated weapon, the amount of poison is finite and it's simply a matter of introducing it through a wound or not...
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Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
What you have here is a double standard, multiple ones in fact.
A Poison Gland is only capable of excreting a finite amount of Poison, which is why there are thousands of Snakes milked for their Venom every day in order to make Anti-Venom.
The Poison Damage is a tool for emulating the damage done to a Creature's Internal Organs & Circulatory System. If one stabs you in the Heart, or the Lung, or the Throat, would the Poison cause as much Damage as if you'd stabbed them in the Foot? By the standards which you just outlined; Yes, stabbing their Foot deals an equal amount of Internal Organ Destruction as stabbing them in the Heart. In 5e this is not the case, as the Damage Dice are Doubled for such Critical Strike.
The amount of Time per ROUND is still 6 Seconds, and that has a finite limit of how much Poison can be transferred via the means provided. A Bee for example is capable of Stinging you, and the Venom will be painful and Itchy and cause swelling, however the Bee still has PLENTY of Venom left, and it takes roughly half a minute to inject it all into you, no matter how vital their strike was, and that is why their Stinger is pulled out, disemboweling the Bee in the Process, in order to do exactly as you described; Excrete more venom out of their Gland as fast as it possibly can.
Another name for a "Critical Hit" is "Vital Strike". If you Strike something Vital with a Poisoned Blade, such as the creature's Heart, would the Poison do extra Damage? Yes, it would be roughly twice as effective, as it has now bypassed the Body's entire natural defense, and the Con Save that the Creature is forced to roll against it is to simulate whether or not their Body's defenses were already prepared in such a Location. The damage will still be done, but it will be lessened if their immune system is already there and already prepared.
A Poison Gland is only capable of excreting a finite amount of Poison
You make some good points, and as I said above, this is just my take on it. But I still maintain that a creature's venom glands--finite though they certainly are--have the ability to pump a significant amount of additional poison into a wound if either the bite is maintained for a longer duration or the hit is actually a quick succession of multiple bites or contact with a higher number of poison barbs or tendrils (each of which might be what happens on a venomous monster's critical hit; and remember, many of these monsters are magical creatures, not just real-world ones). In contrast, with a poison-coated weapon, that smear of poison on the blade or arrow tip, etc. has a much more limited range of possibility for increased volume of poison being introduced to the wound (assuming increased volume even matters).
Also, while in many cases introducing a poison directly to an internal organ (as opposed to, say, a slashing wound on the upper arm) might result in the poison being more effective, this would not always be the case; it would depend on the nature of the poison and what the "poison damage" is meant to represent (neurotoxic, hemotoxic, cytotoxic, paralytic, etc). But for sure, a physical wound that pierces an internal organ would do greater hp damage than a slash to the upper arm, and that's what a critical hit increase on a *weapon* attack generally represents (again, to me; your mileage may vary).
That being said, I've homebrewed certain types of craftable poisons and monster venoms that ARE specifically designed to deal additional damage under optimal circumstances, so that (built into the poison's description) a critical hit on the attack or a critical fail (or maybe even failure by 5 or more) on the saving throw results in increased poison damage or additional effects such as the Stunned condition or Exhaustion or Suffocation, etc... :)
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Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
By the way, great discussion! I love thinking about different DM approaches to game mechanics. It's what gives each DM's campaigns a unique sort of flavor. In the end, consistency is really all that matters. :)
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Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
the Critical's increased Poison damage is indeed a result of the exposure to key locations, not a result of volume, just as a Weapon stabbing the Heart is a bad thing, so is the Heart being exposed to a Neurotoxin, Hemotoxin, Cytotoxin, etc. Specifically, any of those 3 would cause staggering amounts of Damage if introduced to the Heart, and almost equally bad amounts if introduced to a Vital Organ, especially a Cytotoxin.
The Volumetric & Potency end is handled by the base number & size of the Dice being rolled, which is why a Phase Spider & Giant Wolf Spider, despite both using Neurotoxins, have such vastly different damages for their Poisons (4d8 & 2d6 respectively), as the Phase Spider is a Large, whereas the Giant Wolf Spider is only a Medium, thus the Phase Spider has higher concentration and a faster rate of injection, which is represented accordingly by the Dice.
If the Phase Spider however had a lower Concentration than the Giant Wolf Spider's Poison, the Dice Size would likely decrease, reducing it to something akin to 4d4 vs 2d6, which would show a model that favors volume over potency, perhaps due to favoring smaller prey, or having larger venom glands.
If a Creature has such affects where they have multiple smaller poison "feeders" (for lack of a better general phrase), then it will be reflected in the Physical end of their Damages, such as a Grapple Effect, Multi-Attack for multiple chances to Poison, etc.
The Mechanical portions of the Poison itself in 5e are in direct reference to the Internal Damages that the Poison (in the case in question; Injury Poisons) actually does upon entering the System. If the Injury Poison enters a part of the Blood Stream where it deals magnitudes more Damage, such as a Vital Organ; That is a Critical Hit, or a Vital Strike if you will. If the Injury Poison instead enters though a wound to an extremity, the internal damage is respectively lower as a result since it is not Hitting a Critical area.
That is why the Poison deals potentially twice as much Damage, another thing to note is the Key Word: Potentially. Since a Crit rolls 2x the Dice, there is also the chance that it simply deals a lot of small numbers. I've seen blows which would have normally outright killed (Insta-Death) the average Player, instead only leave them badly beaten up, simply because the Damage rolled was incredulously low, despite being a Crit. Likewise, I've also seen a Non-Crit narrowly avoid instantly killing a player as well.
Whilst many players prefer the Average Damage Method, I find that it takes a lot of the Variance out of Combat, which is what keeps the Combat interesting for me, as it can create situations where the most mundane of Enemies becomes the strongest opponent, and conversely a massive Boss fight can become laughable, which would simply bolster the Fame of the Heroes further as word spreads, luring in stronger opponents to offer them a Worthy Challenge. I understand the option, I just simply don't find it entertaining.
Whilst many players prefer the Average Damage Method, I find that it takes a lot of the Variance out of Combat, which is what keeps the Combat interesting for me
Totally agree. I never use Average Damage.
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Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
There are many class abilites that add damage dice to weapon attack. Sneak dice, hunter's mark, divine smite. These are all governed by the hit roll that was provided by the weapon being used. The damage of abilites like these as well as the damage done by the weapon would be doubled on a crit. I don't see many things resolved by a saving throw being allowed to crit.
There are many class abilites that add damage dice to weapon attack. Sneak dice, hunter's mark, divine smite. These are all governed by the hit roll that was provided by the weapon being used. The damage of abilites like these as well as the damage done by the weapon would be doubled on a crit. I don't see many things resolved by a saving throw being allowed to crit.
Agreed! All those things you mention (forms of extra magical damage and extra damage from enhanced accuracy or attack cunningness) would definitely be doubled on a crit. At least, that's how I've always handled them.
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Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
I too agree with the Crit Saving Throws using Logic. I do reward my Players with 1d20 Exp per Nat 20, and I also treat Nat 20/1 as +/- 5 to the total (respectively). This allows for a more flexible Environment, as the Rogue is still capable of being caught even at higher levels, however, conversely the Players might get lucky and spot someone or something much higher level that nobody else sees.
Scout would also make a good subclass. Expertise in nature gives you a decent chance at makin that dc20 nature check.
I wonder if poison being difficult to get and unreliable to use is intentional to balance the rogue class. They seem to have few ways to supplement their considerable damage output beyond their basic class mechanics. Giving them reliable poison might make them a bit too deadly.
Thank you for this note on purple worm poison. I'm creating a back story (which is some how turning into a short story) where her love was killed after a skrimish by a viscous purple substance that laced a dagger.
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"What is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."
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I concur that poisons are underwhelming. It doesn't help that a LOT of monsters are outright immune.
I suggest taking a look at the poison section of the 3.5 book "Arms and Equipment Guide" if you can get your hands on it. The poison rules and processes in it will help you with homebrewing some rules for your player. (It's what I did with a player that wanted to get into poisons.)
One word of advice though, there is probably a reason poison rules are wonky. If you make them too easy or too cheap to get, or not that illegal in your world, the next thing you know you'll have just about every player in your party coating their weapons for almost every battle. Even just having some "advanced" basic poison that does an extra 2d6 or 2d8 damage can throw off CR/encounter building if your bad guys aren't immune.
I’m of the mind that poison should simulate “real world” application. So, someone poisoned usually doesn’t “keel over” from damage, unless we are talking a ludicris dose in one application (some of the more deadly snakes in the world). So, my take would be a cumulative effect unless there is a save, or a save for half. So, poison should look like this:
First hit with poison: take 2D6 (save for half DC 10
still in system? Take 3D6 (save for half DC 13)
”reaches vitals” Take 4D6 (save for half DC 15)
This method also gives those with medicine something to do besides save you from Death Saves, as a successful medicine check should stop successive rolls for damage. Use the same DCs as above for the Medicine checks.
Thoughts?
I'm trying to develop a poison-using Ranger subclass right now. (Can you tell the default alignment of it?)
I appreciate the thoughts that many have contributed here. There are a lot of balance issues to think about and I guess I'm contributing a few of my own.
I remember in 2nd edition AD&D when the poison condition could easily kill a PC in less than an hour unless someone had Slow Poison or Neutralize Poison prepared. Not coincidentally, 5th edition no longer has the Slow Poison spell. I guess that's not a coincidence b/c the devs seem to dislike save-or-die abilities being used. The ones that do remain seem to fairly high level. Disadvantage seems to be something that is fairly easy to work around as well, so most of the time, the poisoned condition is mostly more of an inconvenience that a real source of in-game tension building.
Is this to reduce the lethality of the gameworld for PCs played by folks new to D&D 5e? Or did they decide that it slowed down combat too much? Reduce the accounting involved?
Real world situations are what we usually draw inspiration from. While it's disappointing that poison use seems rather restricted by rules a written, would making poison more realistic break the game or at least necessitate that every party traveled with a Cleric or Druid?
I love having my characters use poison when I'm a player and working poison into campaigns as a DM.
If you're interested, in my Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, among the many poison-centric subclass options across all classes, there are three for Rangers:
Also new poison-focused backgrounds, dozens of new poisons, expanded rules for harvesting poisons from monsters and the environment and for crafting poisons, tables presenting poison as treasure, etc...
Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
Poisons are not Magical, and as such are not nullified by a Beholder's Gaze, unlike a Potion of Healing (of any variety) amongst other types of Potions. Also, Poisons are not detected by the Spell Detect Magic, unlike Potions, and instead have a separate Spell (Detect Disease & Poison) for their detection.
Potions are so expensive because they have a specific purpose, and usually need to be made using exact methods, such as growing a Rare Plant in specific conditions before harvesting the result followed by finally refining the harvested materials into a specific concoction (the Belladonna Plant is full of useful information for Alchemy & Poisons for a quick reference).
The DC wouldn't be affected by anyone's Proficiency due to their skill in application not having any effect on the strength of the Poison, nor would their Proficiency have any effect on the ability of their Immune System resisting the Poison.
The Attack Roll is to see if your Weapon hits, The Save is to see how your body reacts to the Poison, and the Damage is how much it hurt. Almost every single Poisonous Monster follows this pattern, such as the Giant Wolf Spider, and the Phase Spider, as well as Poisonous Snakes, Scorpions, even the Drow Poison that the Drow NPCs use follow the same ruleset of Attack + Save + Damage. Ingested Poisons even have a chance to be Detected before they are ingested, so that one also has 3 Rolls.
I have no idea how you consider a slow and meticulous process such as the Medieval methods of creating & refining Poisons into useful quantities is considered worth roughly $25 per 8 hours of work in a Economy where a Blacksmith that is getting Military Contracts to outfit Guards, Armies, & Adventurers is only making $5 per 8 hours of work (1 Gold = 100 Copper, thus 1 Gold = $1). You're destabilizing your economy on a drastic scale and have no idea the ramifications of such things, as you've just made a simple Venomous Snake worth a few hundred gold dead, more alive. If they find a Phase Spider they'll be able to probably afford some Plate Mail from the single dose they'd harvest, and heaven help you if they capture it, or worse, befriend it! Imagine them harvesting even 200+ GP per Day, using Drow Poison for measurement, and tell me that's not going to be a problem for you later. Because Phase Spider Venom is extremely useful for its Neurotoxin Properties, as it makes a perfect Anesthetic for any Medical Procedure if you Heal them afterwards without curing their Poison Status. It's also useful for pretending to be Dead, should the need arise, so long as they don't do anything to you before you wake up an hour later. They'll be able to easily find a Buyer, hell they could sell it to a Temple!
There's PLENTY of Save or Die abilities; Shadow, Weight, Specter, Intellect Devourer, etc.
Shadows & Specters are easily kill-able by a few Lv 3 Players, but also easily can Perma-Kill a Lv1 in 1 shot. Unless you think having less than 1 Strength or less than 1 Max HP is survivable, because nothing says survivable like being incapable of expanding your Chest so you can Breath (0 Strength), yes that is actually a thing, that's why it is Federally Illegal for Police to jam their Knee into your upper back; because they were tired of people DYING, so they made a Federal Law against it, just like the Law against using a Taser on a Person's Face because it causes Seizures in addition to the risk of going into V-Tac (Heart Attack) that simply being Tasered carries.
There's even the ability to buy Pale Tincture, which is explicitly Save 7 times or Die, and is only 250 GP.
You seem to forget that the majority of Parties actually don't focus on counteracting Poisons, and will usually forget entirely that Poison is a thing until they need an Antidote. That being said, if they wanted to be consistently prepared, they'll want someone proficient in Herbalism Kit, as they're the ones capable of not only creating Potions of Healing, but also Antitoxins, amongst other things.
Well said! You are indeed correct! I have an Assassin Rogue in my Party! So, I have an Exacerbated situation, where I'm not only dealing with Poison, but it's almost always going to be a Crit during the first Round, so the 3d8 Phase Spider Venom suddenly jumps to 6d8, and we have an entire Phase Spider & Giant Wolf Spider Nest that we're clearing out, so he's likely going to be harvesting a LOT of poison. I'm even reducing the Damage to simulate "Loss of Efficacy" (as well as make it easier to apply to Ammunition), it's ORIGINALLY 4d8, which would double to 8d8 with a Crit!
Here's what I have calculated for the two Poisons I'm dealing with here:
The reason why I allowed the Giant Wolf Spider a smaller drop in Damage is primarily due to the low initial starting point. You'll also notice that the Ammunition isn't entirely OP with 3 applications of the Weapon damage to it per 4 oz. Vial (1 "Dose") of the stuff. The Giant Wolf Spider Venom (DC 11) is actually on par with the 100 GP Basic Poison (DC 10), except I insulated my Economy by having it be a questionable acquisition, which is a flat (Value/2) in addition to the compounded (Value/2) Selling Penalty, so they'll only be offered roughly ((Value/2)/2)=25 GP for the Vial of Giant Wolf Spider Venom, and I doubt they'll even WANT to sell the Phase Spider Venom, because those things have been annihilating the Party with their Venom (a few of which are even PC Werewolves, so their Invincible Pride has been wounded by the turn of events), and because it's actually potent enough to be useful.
My take on it is that the poison on a weapon or ammo wouldn't deal extra damage on a critical hit. To me, the critical hit damage reflects a more grievous wound from a perfectly executed weapon blow. The poison is either introduced through the wound or it's not, but there are no existing mechanics in the game that contemplate reduced damage if only a little poison gets in the wound or increased damage for a lot getting in. If the poison enters the target's body through the injury, the target take the full poison damage, no more, no less, even if the injury itself is critical. By the same token, I wouldn't reduce the poison damage if the weapon damage roll for a non-critical hit is a 1. The poison still gets in the wound. Again, that's just my take on it; others may feel differently...
Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
I would add, though, that it DOES makes sense to me that a monster like a phase spider would deal bonus poison damage on a critical hit, since there you're talking about a natural weapon, and on a critical hit, one could imagine the monster's poison glands (or whatever) continuing to pump massive amounts of additional poison into the target's body. With a poison-coated weapon, the amount of poison is finite and it's simply a matter of introducing it through a wound or not...
Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
What you have here is a double standard, multiple ones in fact.
Another name for a "Critical Hit" is "Vital Strike". If you Strike something Vital with a Poisoned Blade, such as the creature's Heart, would the Poison do extra Damage? Yes, it would be roughly twice as effective, as it has now bypassed the Body's entire natural defense, and the Con Save that the Creature is forced to roll against it is to simulate whether or not their Body's defenses were already prepared in such a Location. The damage will still be done, but it will be lessened if their immune system is already there and already prepared.
You make some good points, and as I said above, this is just my take on it. But I still maintain that a creature's venom glands--finite though they certainly are--have the ability to pump a significant amount of additional poison into a wound if either the bite is maintained for a longer duration or the hit is actually a quick succession of multiple bites or contact with a higher number of poison barbs or tendrils (each of which might be what happens on a venomous monster's critical hit; and remember, many of these monsters are magical creatures, not just real-world ones). In contrast, with a poison-coated weapon, that smear of poison on the blade or arrow tip, etc. has a much more limited range of possibility for increased volume of poison being introduced to the wound (assuming increased volume even matters).
Also, while in many cases introducing a poison directly to an internal organ (as opposed to, say, a slashing wound on the upper arm) might result in the poison being more effective, this would not always be the case; it would depend on the nature of the poison and what the "poison damage" is meant to represent (neurotoxic, hemotoxic, cytotoxic, paralytic, etc). But for sure, a physical wound that pierces an internal organ would do greater hp damage than a slash to the upper arm, and that's what a critical hit increase on a *weapon* attack generally represents (again, to me; your mileage may vary).
That being said, I've homebrewed certain types of craftable poisons and monster venoms that ARE specifically designed to deal additional damage under optimal circumstances, so that (built into the poison's description) a critical hit on the attack or a critical fail (or maybe even failure by 5 or more) on the saving throw results in increased poison damage or additional effects such as the Stunned condition or Exhaustion or Suffocation, etc... :)
Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
By the way, great discussion! I love thinking about different DM approaches to game mechanics. It's what gives each DM's campaigns a unique sort of flavor. In the end, consistency is really all that matters. :)
Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
the Critical's increased Poison damage is indeed a result of the exposure to key locations, not a result of volume, just as a Weapon stabbing the Heart is a bad thing, so is the Heart being exposed to a Neurotoxin, Hemotoxin, Cytotoxin, etc. Specifically, any of those 3 would cause staggering amounts of Damage if introduced to the Heart, and almost equally bad amounts if introduced to a Vital Organ, especially a Cytotoxin.
The Volumetric & Potency end is handled by the base number & size of the Dice being rolled, which is why a Phase Spider & Giant Wolf Spider, despite both using Neurotoxins, have such vastly different damages for their Poisons (4d8 & 2d6 respectively), as the Phase Spider is a Large, whereas the Giant Wolf Spider is only a Medium, thus the Phase Spider has higher concentration and a faster rate of injection, which is represented accordingly by the Dice.
If the Phase Spider however had a lower Concentration than the Giant Wolf Spider's Poison, the Dice Size would likely decrease, reducing it to something akin to 4d4 vs 2d6, which would show a model that favors volume over potency, perhaps due to favoring smaller prey, or having larger venom glands.
If a Creature has such affects where they have multiple smaller poison "feeders" (for lack of a better general phrase), then it will be reflected in the Physical end of their Damages, such as a Grapple Effect, Multi-Attack for multiple chances to Poison, etc.
The Mechanical portions of the Poison itself in 5e are in direct reference to the Internal Damages that the Poison (in the case in question; Injury Poisons) actually does upon entering the System. If the Injury Poison enters a part of the Blood Stream where it deals magnitudes more Damage, such as a Vital Organ; That is a Critical Hit, or a Vital Strike if you will. If the Injury Poison instead enters though a wound to an extremity, the internal damage is respectively lower as a result since it is not Hitting a Critical area.
That is why the Poison deals potentially twice as much Damage, another thing to note is the Key Word: Potentially. Since a Crit rolls 2x the Dice, there is also the chance that it simply deals a lot of small numbers. I've seen blows which would have normally outright killed (Insta-Death) the average Player, instead only leave them badly beaten up, simply because the Damage rolled was incredulously low, despite being a Crit. Likewise, I've also seen a Non-Crit narrowly avoid instantly killing a player as well.
Whilst many players prefer the Average Damage Method, I find that it takes a lot of the Variance out of Combat, which is what keeps the Combat interesting for me, as it can create situations where the most mundane of Enemies becomes the strongest opponent, and conversely a massive Boss fight can become laughable, which would simply bolster the Fame of the Heroes further as word spreads, luring in stronger opponents to offer them a Worthy Challenge. I understand the option, I just simply don't find it entertaining.
Totally agree. I never use Average Damage.
Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
There are many class abilites that add damage dice to weapon attack. Sneak dice, hunter's mark, divine smite. These are all governed by the hit roll that was provided by the weapon being used. The damage of abilites like these as well as the damage done by the weapon would be doubled on a crit. I don't see many things resolved by a saving throw being allowed to crit.
Agreed! All those things you mention (forms of extra magical damage and extra damage from enhanced accuracy or attack cunningness) would definitely be doubled on a crit. At least, that's how I've always handled them.
Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild
I too agree with the Crit Saving Throws using Logic. I do reward my Players with 1d20 Exp per Nat 20, and I also treat Nat 20/1 as +/- 5 to the total (respectively). This allows for a more flexible Environment, as the Rogue is still capable of being caught even at higher levels, however, conversely the Players might get lucky and spot someone or something much higher level that nobody else sees.
Scout would also make a good subclass. Expertise in nature gives you a decent chance at makin that dc20 nature check.
I wonder if poison being difficult to get and unreliable to use is intentional to balance the rogue class. They seem to have few ways to supplement their considerable damage output beyond their basic class mechanics. Giving them reliable poison might make them a bit too deadly.
Thank you for this note on purple worm poison. I'm creating a back story (which is some how turning into a short story) where her love was killed after a skrimish by a viscous purple substance that laced a dagger.
"What is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."