(2024 rules) Does Expertise in Sleight of Hand give any benefit to picking a lock?

Are the "none" and "none in" for lines 4 and 5 mistakes?

I just remembered this summary from Stabbey_TC:

Quote from Stabbey_TC >>

I'm going to second tarodnet's view on that.

• You need to have Thieves' Tools to attempt to pick the lock at all, if you don't have any, you (probably) can't try and improvise (unless you really beg the DM and they agree).
• If you have Thieves' Tools, you make the pick using your Sleight of Hand skill.
• If you have proficiency in one of Thieves' Tools or Sleight of Hand, you make the Sleight of Hand check normally, adding your proficiency bonus.
• If you are proficient in both Thieves' Tools and Sleight of Hand, you make the Sleight of Hand check with advantage, adding your proficiency bonus.
• If you have Expertise in Sleight of Hand (you can no longer have Expertise in a tool), you add double your proficiency bonus (or rather, you use the already-doubled value beside Sleight of Hand).

I’ve re-edited those lines now for clarity - thanks for catching that.

Quote from Wi1dBi11 >>

Altogether we have 5 different situations:
1) no proficiency in either sleight of hand and thieves tools - have fun - no proficiency adds, no advantage  just a straight Dex roll.
2) proficiency in thieves tools none in slight of hand - add your thieves tools proficiency to your Dex roll.
3) proficiency/expertise in slight of hand - add your proficiency/ expertise bonus to your Dex roll
4) proficiency in slight of hand and thieves tools none- add your proficiency bonus (once) and roll with advantage.
5) expertise with slight of hand and proficiency with thieves tools none in- this one is tricky, advantage is roughly a +4 to the roll while expertise is double proficiency which changes with level. In tier 1 they are basically the same at +6 (total) so you’re back to case 4. At tier 2 you’re still probably better treating it as case 4 or maybe case 3 with expertise - +6 or +8 to the roll. In tiers 3&4 your best treating it as case 3 with expertise in slight of hand giving you a +8 to +12 to the Dex roll. 

For example 5 a strict RAW interpretation would seem to be that you make a Dexterity roll and you are allowed to use either your Proficiency in Thieves' Tools or your Expertise in Slight of Hand (that's a tough choice). Then, because you have Proficiency in both skills (with Expertise you have both Expertise and Proficiency because Expertise does not take away Proficiency), you additionally gain Advantage.

This does seem to allow some tool based skills to make some very high rolls (Sleight of Hand with Thieves' Tools, Performance with an instrument, Deception with a Disguise Kit, etc.) but it does not appear that allowing those would be all that game breaking as long as 'common sense' for what is achievable by a skill is employed.

e.g., Regardless of how well your Performance Roll was, it is not going to have the effect of a spell and cause the invading army to stop in their tracks and start weeping. You will instead have given a legendary performance, the kind that will be spoken of in ballads and odes for a thousand years, along with how noble and tragic it was that you continued to play even as the army ran right over you.

Quote from esampson >>

Quote from Wi1dBi11 >>

Altogether we have 5 different situations:
1) no proficiency in either sleight of hand and thieves tools - have fun - no proficiency adds, no advantage  just a straight Dex roll.
2) proficiency in thieves tools none in slight of hand - add your thieves tools proficiency to your Dex roll.
3) proficiency/expertise in slight of hand - add your proficiency/ expertise bonus to your Dex roll
4) proficiency in slight of hand and thieves tools none- add your proficiency bonus (once) and roll with advantage.
5) expertise with slight of hand and proficiency with thieves tools none in- this one is tricky, advantage is roughly a +4 to the roll while expertise is double proficiency which changes with level. In tier 1 they are basically the same at +6 (total) so you’re back to case 4. At tier 2 you’re still probably better treating it as case 4 or maybe case 3 with expertise - +6 or +8 to the roll. In tiers 3&4 your best treating it as case 3 with expertise in slight of hand giving you a +8 to +12 to the Dex roll. 

 

For example 5 a strict RAW interpretation would seem to be that you make a Dexterity roll and you are allowed to use either your Proficiency in Thieves' Tools or your Expertise in Slight of Hand (that's a tough choice). Then, because you have Proficiency in both skills (with Expertise you have both Expertise and Proficiency because Expertise does not take away Proficiency), you additionally gain Advantage. [...]

 You're making a Sleight of Hand check, but using the Tool, so I don't see the problem.

From the Glossary (emphasis mine):

Expertise

Expertise is a feature that enhances your use of a skill proficiency. When you make an ability check with a skill proficiency in which you have Expertise, your Proficiency Bonus is doubled for that check unless the bonus is doubled by another feature.

You only get to use 1 proficiency with the roll. My point in case 5 is that if you use proficiency with thieves tools you don’t get to add proficiency or expertise with sleight of hand but you do get advantage on the roll if you have either proficiency or expertise with slight of hand. If you use the expertise in sleight of hand you don’t get the proficiency in thieve’s tools nor do you get advantage since that applies only for the skill proficiency if you have the tool proficiency . If you do the math for that it comes out: 
Prof. (TT) = +2 then expertise (SoH)= +4 but proficiency at advantage (+4)=+6
P (Tt) = +3  then expertise = +6 and advantage = +7
P =+4 then expertise = +8 and advantage = +8.  Your break even point
P = +5 then expertise = ++10 and advantage = +9
P = +6 then expertise = +12 and advantage = +10 
So in tiers 1&2 your better of using advantage, from level 9-13 it’s your choice which to use and from level 13 on your better off using xpertise.

Quote from esampson >>

Quote from Wi1dBi11 >>

5) expertise with slight of hand and proficiency with thieves tools none in- this one is tricky, advantage is roughly a +4 to the roll while expertise is double proficiency which changes with level. In tier 1 they are basically the same at +6 (total) so you’re back to case 4. At tier 2 you’re still probably better treating it as case 4 or maybe case 3 with expertise - +6 or +8 to the roll. In tiers 3&4 your best treating it as case 3 with expertise in slight of hand giving you a +8 to +12 to the Dex roll. 

 For example 5 a strict RAW interpretation would seem to be that you make a Dexterity roll and you are allowed to use either your Proficiency in Thieves' Tools or your Expertise in Slight of Hand (that's a tough choice). Then, because you have Proficiency in both skills (with Expertise you have both Expertise and Proficiency because Expertise does not take away Proficiency), you additionally gain Advantage.

I'm not sure I see a RAW case for using your expertise tbh because of how the rules for Tools is worded. You get to add your PB because you are proficient with the tools, not because you are proficient in the skill. Being proficient in the skill only gives you advantage on the roll. 

Don't get me wrong, I think it was a really dumb idea to have the rule be what it is. It seems to me that your reasoning for why you get advantage is probably the one they used but then they really should have made that the rule. 

See my revised posts. I recognize the reasons for not allowing both proficiencies. The listed roll (15) would be exceeded without a roll if we allowed expertise in sleight of hand (+12) and proficiency in thieves tools (+6) (total = +18) . The present system preserves the chance of failure through the highest levels.

Quote from Thezzaruz >>

Quote from esampson >>

Quote from Wi1dBi11 >>

5) expertise with slight of hand and proficiency with thieves tools none in- this one is tricky, advantage is roughly a +4 to the roll while expertise is double proficiency which changes with level. In tier 1 they are basically the same at +6 (total) so you’re back to case 4. At tier 2 you’re still probably better treating it as case 4 or maybe case 3 with expertise - +6 or +8 to the roll. In tiers 3&4 your best treating it as case 3 with expertise in slight of hand giving you a +8 to +12 to the Dex roll. 

 For example 5 a strict RAW interpretation would seem to be that you make a Dexterity roll and you are allowed to use either your Proficiency in Thieves' Tools or your Expertise in Slight of Hand (that's a tough choice). Then, because you have Proficiency in both skills (with Expertise you have both Expertise and Proficiency because Expertise does not take away Proficiency), you additionally gain Advantage.

I'm not sure I see a RAW case for using your expertise tbh because of how the rules for Tools is worded. You get to add your PB because you are proficient with the tools, not because you are proficient in the skill. Being proficient in the skill only gives you advantage on the roll. 

Don't get me wrong, I think it was a really dumb idea to have the rule be what it is. It seems to me that your reasoning for why you get advantage is probably the one they used but then they really should have made that the rule. 

I like that thieves tools uses slight of hand, but the implementation of tools in general l am not thrilled with. I'd kind of the opinion tool proficiency should be unlocking traits from skills. Like let say herbalism uses nature skills, have under the herbalist kit DCs for herbalist tests that use nature, have some req tool proficiency herbalist due to their complexity some anyone trained in nature can do, some anyone can do just from a int check. Hopefully rounding out uses for more niche skills. 

Well herbalism grants the ability to brew healing potions, antitoxin etc. which you can’t do with just a nature check.

Quote from Wi1dBi11 >>

See my revised posts. I recognize the reasons for not allowing both proficiencies. The listed roll (15) would be exceeded without a roll if we allowed expertise in sleight of hand (+12) and proficiency in thieves tools (+6) (total = +18) . The present system preserves the chance of failure through the highest levels.

Normally when doing an ability check you add your ability mod and then you add your proficiency bonus if you are proficient in the relevant skill (or 2xPB if you have expertise in the skill). But the rules for tools specifies a different way of doing things, the you get to add your proficiency bonus if you are proficient in the tool and then get advantage if you have the relevant skill proficiency too. But as you don't get you PB from the skill then there is no mechanic there to get 2xPB if you have expertise in the skill so using your numbers you would never get more than +6 (+roll+ability mod ofc).

As I said above it s a dumb way to write the rule because it creates an ability check that works differently from how such a check normally works. And it is especially stupid because it really is an ability (tool) check but it is in many places presented as an ability (skill) check.

Or, you treat it as not having proficiency in thieves tools - especially at higher levels - and just use the skill expertise (or you don’t take proficiency in thieves tools at all just purchasing the tools). This leaves you a bit behind  levels 1-8 but way ahead after L13. Where the advantage works well are characters like my ranger.3/bard 3 with jack of all trades giving limited (1/2) proficiency in sleight of hand. Realistically he is never going to take expertise in sleight of hand but might take proficiency in thieves tools and use training to move the half to full proficiency. Now the advantage works in his favor.

Quote from Wi1dBi11 >>

Or, you treat it as not having proficiency in thieves tools - especially at higher levels - and just use the skill expertise (or you don’t take proficiency in thieves tools at all just purchasing the tools). 

Sure but then you just ignore what the rule for using tools say. Not saying that it is explicitly wrong, can't say I'm wild about a mechanic that rewards you for not being proficient in the tool you use though. 

See I read the rules differently - they offer options not force stupid requirements - it’s a version of the old anything not strictly allowed is prohibited/ anything not strictly prohibited is allowed  dichotomy 

 When using a tool, there is no tool use check.  There is an ability check.  Tool Proficiency only allows you to add your prof bonus to said check when using the tool.  If you have prof/exp in a skill related to the use of the tool,  you use the bonus from the skill (i.e. making a Dex(SoH) check using Thieve's Tools to pick a lock).  If you have proficiency in both, you make the check at advantage.

Here is an example.

You want to cook, in an entertaining fashion, for some noble.  Your DM asks you to make a Dex(Performance) d20 test.  You are proficient with Cook's Utensils, but not Performance.  Your prof with the tool allows you to make the Dex(Performance) check with your prof bonus.  If you have Expertise in Performance, you add double your prof bonus, and have advantage, because you are an expert performer, who happens to be utilizing a tool.

Say it with me...

THERE IS NO TOOL USE CHECK

Quote from Wi1dBi11 >>

Altogether we have 5 different situations:
1) no proficiency in either sleight of hand and thieves tools - have fun - no proficiency adds, no advantage  just a straight Dex roll.
2) proficiency in thieves tools none in slight of hand - add your thieves tools proficiency to your Dex roll.
3) proficiency/expertise in slight of hand - add your proficiency/ expertise bonus to your Dex roll
4) proficiency in slight of hand and no proficiency in thieves tools - add your proficiency bonus (once) and roll with advantage.
5) expertise with slight of hand and no proficiency with thieves tools - this one is tricky, advantage is roughly a +4 to the roll while expertise is double proficiency which changes with level. In tier 1 they are basically the same at +6 (total) so you’re back to case 4. At tier 2 you’re still probably better treating it as case 4 or maybe case 3 with expertise - +6 or +8 to the roll. In tiers 3&4 your best treating it as case 3 with expertise in sleight of hand giving you a +8 to +12 to the Dex roll. 

I think Scenario 4 is supposed to be "Proficiency in sleight of hand and thieves' tools - add your proficiency bonus (once) and roll with advantage."

Is Scenario 5 supposed to be "Expertise with sleight of hand and proficiency with thieves' tools"? I would treat that as add your doubled proficiency bonus and roll with advantage. Either Expertise in the skill allows you to apply double your proficiency bonus or having proficiency in the skill without the tool proficiency would not provide a bonus.

Quote from mastergunnercalicojack >>

 When using a tool, there is no tool use check.  There is an ability check.  Tool Proficiency only allows you to add your prof bonus to said check when using the tool.  If you have prof/exp in a skill related to the use of the tool,  you use the bonus from the skill (i.e. making a Dex(SoH) check using Thieve's Tools to pick a lock).  If you have proficiency in both, you make the check at advantage.

Here is an example.

You want to cook, in an entertaining fashion, for some noble.  Your DM asks you to make a Dex(Performance) d20 test.  You are proficient with Cook's Utensils, but not Performance.  Your prof with the tool allows you to make the Dex(Performance) check with your prof bonus.  If you have Expertise in Performance, you add double your prof bonus, and have advantage, because you are an expert performer, who happens to be utilizing a tool.

Say it with me...

THERE IS NO TOOL USE CHECK

 You're right. In 5e or 5.5e, all checks are ability checks, and you use a relevant skill or tool when it applies.

Since this thread was created, at least one more has come up on the same topic: Lost on Proficiency and Tools and Tool proficiency

This is also interesting regarding your reply: What skills use what tools?

EDIT: for clarity.

I would say that Expertise counts as Proficiency for the purpose of determining if you have Advantage on an ability check using both a Skill Proficiency and Tool Proficiency. I base this on the following:

Expertise

Expertise is a feature that enhances your use of a skill proficiency. When you make an ability check with a skill proficiency in which you have Expertise, your Proficiency Bonus is doubled for that check unless the bonus is doubled by another feature.

If you gain Expertise, you gain it in one skill in which you have proficiency. You can’t have Expertise in the same skill proficiency more than once.

See also “Playing the Game” (“Proficiency”).

Basically Expertise is a modifier that exists "on top of" Proficiency, not instead of. As such, you cannot have the former without also having the latter than thus you'd qualify for skill + tool = Advantage on an Ability Check

Quote from Davyd >>

Basically Expertise is a modifier that exists "on top of" Proficiency, not instead of. As such, you cannot have the former without also having the latter than thus you'd qualify for skill + tool = Advantage on an Ability Check

I think this is further supported by the fact that (as far as I can tell) all features/feats/etc. in 5.5e that grant Expertise in something explicitly require that it be something you already have proficiency in.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from Davyd >>

Basically Expertise is a modifier that exists "on top of" Proficiency, not instead of. As such, you cannot have the former without also having the latter than thus you'd qualify for skill + tool = Advantage on an Ability Check

I think this is further supported by the fact that (as far as I can tell) all features/feats/etc. in 5.5e that grant Expertise in something explicitly require that it be something you already have proficiency in.

 Yeah, that's a good point too.

isn’t the slight of hand just for an example skill?