You need to have Thieves' Tools to attempt to pick the lock at all, if you don't have any, you (probably) can't try and improvise (unless you really beg the DM and they agree).
If you have Thieves' Tools, you make the pick using your Sleight of Hand skill.
If you have proficiency in one of Thieves' Tools or Sleight of Hand, you make the Sleight of Hand check normally, adding your proficiency bonus.
If you are proficient in both Thieves' Tools and Sleight of Hand, you make the Sleight of Hand check with advantage, adding your proficiency bonus.
If you have Expertise in Sleight of Hand (you can no longer have Expertise in a tool), you add double your proficiency bonus (or rather, you use the already-doubled value beside Sleight of Hand).
Altogether we have 5 different situations: 1) no proficiency in either sleight of hand and thieves tools - have fun - no proficiency adds, no advantage just a straight Dex roll. 2) proficiency in thieves tools none in slight of hand - add your thieves tools proficiency to your Dex roll. 3) proficiency/expertise in slight of hand - add your proficiency/ expertise bonus to your Dex roll 4) proficiency in slight of hand and thieves tools none- add your proficiency bonus (once) and roll with advantage. 5) expertise with slight of hand and proficiency with thieves tools none in- this one is tricky, advantage is roughly a +4 to the roll while expertise is double proficiency which changes with level. In tier 1 they are basically the same at +6 (total) so you’re back to case 4. At tier 2 you’re still probably better treating it as case 4 or maybe case 3 with expertise - +6 or +8 to the roll. In tiers 3&4 your best treating it as case 3 with expertise in slight of hand giving you a +8 to +12 to the Dex roll.
For example 5 a strict RAW interpretation would seem to be that you make a Dexterity roll and you are allowed to use either your Proficiency in Thieves' Tools or your Expertise in Slight of Hand (that's a tough choice). Then, because you have Proficiency in both skills (with Expertise you have both Expertise and Proficiency because Expertise does not take away Proficiency), you additionally gain Advantage.
This does seem to allow some tool based skills to make some very high rolls (Sleight of Hand with Thieves' Tools, Performance with an instrument, Deception with a Disguise Kit, etc.) but it does not appear that allowing those would be all that game breaking as long as 'common sense' for what is achievable by a skill is employed.
e.g., Regardless of how well your Performance Roll was, it is not going to have the effect of a spell and cause the invading army to stop in their tracks and start weeping. You will instead have given a legendary performance, the kind that will be spoken of in ballads and odes for a thousand years, along with how noble and tragic it was that you continued to play even as the army ran right over you.
Altogether we have 5 different situations: 1) no proficiency in either sleight of hand and thieves tools - have fun - no proficiency adds, no advantage just a straight Dex roll. 2) proficiency in thieves tools none in slight of hand - add your thieves tools proficiency to your Dex roll. 3) proficiency/expertise in slight of hand - add your proficiency/ expertise bonus to your Dex roll 4) proficiency in slight of hand and thieves tools none- add your proficiency bonus (once) and roll with advantage. 5) expertise with slight of hand and proficiency with thieves tools none in- this one is tricky, advantage is roughly a +4 to the roll while expertise is double proficiency which changes with level. In tier 1 they are basically the same at +6 (total) so you’re back to case 4. At tier 2 you’re still probably better treating it as case 4 or maybe case 3 with expertise - +6 or +8 to the roll. In tiers 3&4 your best treating it as case 3 with expertise in slight of hand giving you a +8 to +12 to the Dex roll.
For example 5 a strict RAW interpretation would seem to be that you make a Dexterity roll and you are allowed to use either your Proficiency in Thieves' Tools or your Expertise in Slight of Hand (that's a tough choice). Then, because you have Proficiency in both skills (with Expertise you have both Expertise and Proficiency because Expertise does not take away Proficiency), you additionally gain Advantage. [...]
You're making a Sleight of Hand check, but using the Tool, so I don't see the problem.
From the Glossary (emphasis mine):
Expertise
Expertise is a feature that enhances your use of a skill proficiency. When you make an ability check with a skill proficiency in which you have Expertise, your Proficiency Bonus is doubled for that check unless the bonus is doubled by another feature.
You only get to use 1 proficiency with the roll. My point in case 5 is that if you use proficiency with thieves tools you don’t get to add proficiency or expertise with sleight of hand but you do get advantage on the roll if you have either proficiency or expertise with slight of hand. If you use the expertise in sleight of hand you don’t get the proficiency in thieve’s tools nor do you get advantage since that applies only for the skill proficiency if you have the tool proficiency . If you do the math for that it comes out: Prof. (TT) = +2 then expertise (SoH)= +4 but proficiency at advantage (+4)=+6 P (Tt) = +3 then expertise = +6 and advantage = +7 P =+4 then expertise = +8 and advantage = +8. Your break even point P = +5 then expertise = ++10 and advantage = +9 P = +6 then expertise = +12 and advantage = +10 So in tiers 1&2 your better of using advantage, from level 9-13 it’s your choice which to use and from level 13 on your better off using xpertise.
5) expertise with slight of hand and proficiency with thieves tools none in- this one is tricky, advantage is roughly a +4 to the roll while expertise is double proficiency which changes with level. In tier 1 they are basically the same at +6 (total) so you’re back to case 4. At tier 2 you’re still probably better treating it as case 4 or maybe case 3 with expertise - +6 or +8 to the roll. In tiers 3&4 your best treating it as case 3 with expertise in slight of hand giving you a +8 to +12 to the Dex roll.
For example 5 a strict RAW interpretation would seem to be that you make a Dexterity roll and you are allowed to use either your Proficiency in Thieves' Tools or your Expertise in Slight of Hand (that's a tough choice). Then, because you have Proficiency in both skills (with Expertise you have both Expertise and Proficiency because Expertise does not take away Proficiency), you additionally gain Advantage.
I'm not sure I see a RAW case for using your expertise tbh because of how the rules for Tools is worded. You get to add your PB because you are proficient with the tools, not because you are proficient in the skill. Being proficient in the skill only gives you advantage on the roll.
Don't get me wrong, I think it was a really dumb idea to have the rule be what it is. It seems to me that your reasoning for why you get advantage is probably the one they used but then they really should have made that the rule.
See my revised posts. I recognize the reasons for not allowing both proficiencies. The listed roll (15) would be exceeded without a roll if we allowed expertise in sleight of hand (+12) and proficiency in thieves tools (+6) (total = +18) . The present system preserves the chance of failure through the highest levels.
5) expertise with slight of hand and proficiency with thieves tools none in- this one is tricky, advantage is roughly a +4 to the roll while expertise is double proficiency which changes with level. In tier 1 they are basically the same at +6 (total) so you’re back to case 4. At tier 2 you’re still probably better treating it as case 4 or maybe case 3 with expertise - +6 or +8 to the roll. In tiers 3&4 your best treating it as case 3 with expertise in slight of hand giving you a +8 to +12 to the Dex roll.
For example 5 a strict RAW interpretation would seem to be that you make a Dexterity roll and you are allowed to use either your Proficiency in Thieves' Tools or your Expertise in Slight of Hand (that's a tough choice). Then, because you have Proficiency in both skills (with Expertise you have both Expertise and Proficiency because Expertise does not take away Proficiency), you additionally gain Advantage.
I'm not sure I see a RAW case for using your expertise tbh because of how the rules for Tools is worded. You get to add your PB because you are proficient with the tools, not because you are proficient in the skill. Being proficient in the skill only gives you advantage on the roll.
Don't get me wrong, I think it was a really dumb idea to have the rule be what it is. It seems to me that your reasoning for why you get advantage is probably the one they used but then they really should have made that the rule.
I like that thieves tools uses slight of hand, but the implementation of tools in general l am not thrilled with. I'd kind of the opinion tool proficiency should be unlocking traits from skills. Like let say herbalism uses nature skills, have under the herbalist kit DCs for herbalist tests that use nature, have some req tool proficiency herbalist due to their complexity some anyone trained in nature can do, some anyone can do just from a int check. Hopefully rounding out uses for more niche skills.
See my revised posts. I recognize the reasons for not allowing both proficiencies. The listed roll (15) would be exceeded without a roll if we allowed expertise in sleight of hand (+12) and proficiency in thieves tools (+6) (total = +18) . The present system preserves the chance of failure through the highest levels.
Normally when doing an ability check you add your ability mod and then you add your proficiency bonus if you are proficient in the relevant skill (or 2xPB if you have expertise in the skill). But the rules for tools specifies a different way of doing things, the you get to add your proficiency bonus if you are proficient in the tool and then get advantage if you have the relevant skill proficiency too. But as you don't get you PB from the skill then there is no mechanic there to get 2xPB if you have expertise in the skill so using your numbers you would never get more than +6 (+roll+ability mod ofc).
As I said above it s a dumb way to write the rule because it creates an ability check that works differently from how such a check normally works. And it is especially stupid because it really is an ability (tool) check but it is in many places presented as an ability (skill) check.
Or, you treat it as not having proficiency in thieves tools - especially at higher levels - and just use the skill expertise (or you don’t take proficiency in thieves tools at all just purchasing the tools). This leaves you a bit behind levels 1-8 but way ahead after L13. Where the advantage works well are characters like my ranger.3/bard 3 with jack of all trades giving limited (1/2) proficiency in sleight of hand. Realistically he is never going to take expertise in sleight of hand but might take proficiency in thieves tools and use training to move the half to full proficiency. Now the advantage works in his favor.
Or, you treat it as not having proficiency in thieves tools - especially at higher levels - and just use the skill expertise (or you don’t take proficiency in thieves tools at all just purchasing the tools).
Sure but then you just ignore what the rule for using tools say. Not saying that it is explicitly wrong, can't say I'm wild about a mechanic that rewards you for not being proficient in the tool you use though.
See I read the rules differently - they offer options not force stupid requirements - it’s a version of the old anything not strictly allowed is prohibited/ anything not strictly prohibited is allowed dichotomy
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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Are the "none" and "none in" for lines 4 and 5 mistakes?
I just remembered this summary from Stabbey_TC:
I’ve re-edited those lines now for clarity - thanks for catching that.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
For example 5 a strict RAW interpretation would seem to be that you make a Dexterity roll and you are allowed to use either your Proficiency in Thieves' Tools or your Expertise in Slight of Hand (that's a tough choice). Then, because you have Proficiency in both skills (with Expertise you have both Expertise and Proficiency because Expertise does not take away Proficiency), you additionally gain Advantage.
This does seem to allow some tool based skills to make some very high rolls (Sleight of Hand with Thieves' Tools, Performance with an instrument, Deception with a Disguise Kit, etc.) but it does not appear that allowing those would be all that game breaking as long as 'common sense' for what is achievable by a skill is employed.
e.g., Regardless of how well your Performance Roll was, it is not going to have the effect of a spell and cause the invading army to stop in their tracks and start weeping. You will instead have given a legendary performance, the kind that will be spoken of in ballads and odes for a thousand years, along with how noble and tragic it was that you continued to play even as the army ran right over you.
You're making a Sleight of Hand check, but using the Tool, so I don't see the problem.
From the Glossary (emphasis mine):
You only get to use 1 proficiency with the roll. My point in case 5 is that if you use proficiency with thieves tools you don’t get to add proficiency or expertise with sleight of hand but you do get advantage on the roll if you have either proficiency or expertise with slight of hand. If you use the expertise in sleight of hand you don’t get the proficiency in thieve’s tools nor do you get advantage since that applies only for the skill proficiency if you have the tool proficiency . If you do the math for that it comes out:
Prof. (TT) = +2 then expertise (SoH)= +4 but proficiency at advantage (+4)=+6
P (Tt) = +3 then expertise = +6 and advantage = +7
P =+4 then expertise = +8 and advantage = +8. Your break even point
P = +5 then expertise = ++10 and advantage = +9
P = +6 then expertise = +12 and advantage = +10
So in tiers 1&2 your better of using advantage, from level 9-13 it’s your choice which to use and from level 13 on your better off using xpertise.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I'm not sure I see a RAW case for using your expertise tbh because of how the rules for Tools is worded. You get to add your PB because you are proficient with the tools, not because you are proficient in the skill. Being proficient in the skill only gives you advantage on the roll.
Don't get me wrong, I think it was a really dumb idea to have the rule be what it is. It seems to me that your reasoning for why you get advantage is probably the one they used but then they really should have made that the rule.
See my revised posts. I recognize the reasons for not allowing both proficiencies. The listed roll (15) would be exceeded without a roll if we allowed expertise in sleight of hand (+12) and proficiency in thieves tools (+6) (total = +18) . The present system preserves the chance of failure through the highest levels.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I like that thieves tools uses slight of hand, but the implementation of tools in general l am not thrilled with. I'd kind of the opinion tool proficiency should be unlocking traits from skills. Like let say herbalism uses nature skills, have under the herbalist kit DCs for herbalist tests that use nature, have some req tool proficiency herbalist due to their complexity some anyone trained in nature can do, some anyone can do just from a int check. Hopefully rounding out uses for more niche skills.
Well herbalism grants the ability to brew healing potions, antitoxin etc. which you can’t do with just a nature check.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Normally when doing an ability check you add your ability mod and then you add your proficiency bonus if you are proficient in the relevant skill (or 2xPB if you have expertise in the skill). But the rules for tools specifies a different way of doing things, the you get to add your proficiency bonus if you are proficient in the tool and then get advantage if you have the relevant skill proficiency too. But as you don't get you PB from the skill then there is no mechanic there to get 2xPB if you have expertise in the skill so using your numbers you would never get more than +6 (+roll+ability mod ofc).
As I said above it s a dumb way to write the rule because it creates an ability check that works differently from how such a check normally works. And it is especially stupid because it really is an ability (tool) check but it is in many places presented as an ability (skill) check.
Or, you treat it as not having proficiency in thieves tools - especially at higher levels - and just use the skill expertise (or you don’t take proficiency in thieves tools at all just purchasing the tools). This leaves you a bit behind levels 1-8 but way ahead after L13. Where the advantage works well are characters like my ranger.3/bard 3 with jack of all trades giving limited (1/2) proficiency in sleight of hand. Realistically he is never going to take expertise in sleight of hand but might take proficiency in thieves tools and use training to move the half to full proficiency. Now the advantage works in his favor.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Sure but then you just ignore what the rule for using tools say. Not saying that it is explicitly wrong, can't say I'm wild about a mechanic that rewards you for not being proficient in the tool you use though.
See I read the rules differently - they offer options not force stupid requirements - it’s a version of the old anything not strictly allowed is prohibited/ anything not strictly prohibited is allowed dichotomy
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.