I'm fairly sure War Magic is intended to replace of the attacks from the Attackaction itself and not other soruce.
Would you allow War Magic to be used on the extra attack granted by haste?
Yes. It grants an attack action. It's limited to one attack, but it's fair game. It doesn't override the limit on one spell cast with a spell slot per turn though.
I'm fairly sure War Magic is intended to replace of the attacks from the Attackaction itself and not other soruce.
Would you allow War Magic to be used on the extra attack granted by haste?
Yes. It grants an attack action. It's limited to one attack, but it's fair game. It doesn't override the limit on one spell cast with a spell slot per turn though.
....which is irrelevant for War Magic, since it can only be used with cantrips
I agree that War Magic would work with Haste. I just don't see, within the rules, what the difference is between an extra attack granted by Haste and an extra attack granted by Light/Nick. They're both done as part of an Attack action
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I agree that War Magic would work with Haste. I just don't see, within the rules, what the difference is between an extra attack granted by Haste and an extra attack granted by Light/Nick. They're both done as part of an Attack action
One is conditional on using a Light (possibly one with Nick) weapon to make it. The argument is that, because of the preconditions, you can't go "I'll attack with my scimitar... just kidding, I cast a spell." It has merit, but, as I said above, there's not enough text there to officially rule either way.
Guided by a flash of magical insight, you make one attack with the weapon used in the spell’s casting. The attack uses your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls instead of using Strength or Dexterity. If the attack deals damage, it can be Radiant damage or the weapon’s normal damage type (your choice).
Text for Weapon Attack (from Glossary):
A weapon attack is an attack roll made with a weapon. See also “Weapon.”
So, as part of True Strike, you make an attack roll with a Weapon. That fulfils the criteria for a Weapon Attack as per the Glossary, and I can’t find anything that indicates that Weapon Attacks and Spell Attacks are mutually exclusive categories in 2024. Thus, as long as True Strike is made with a Light Weapon, and is being made using War Magic as part off the Attack Actuon, it should satisfy the requirements for Nick.
Edit: Thinking about it, bringing in Weapon Attacks might have over-complicated the argument, as the rules in question don’t reference them. I just wanted to look at whether there was any rule reference that indicated that an attack as part of a spell couldn’t also be an “attack with a weapon”.
Guided by a flash of magical insight, you make one attack with the weapon used in the spell’s casting. The attack uses your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls instead of using Strength or Dexterity. If the attack deals damage, it can be Radiant damage or the weapon’s normal damage type (your choice).
Text for Weapon Attack (from Glossary):
A weapon attack is an attack roll made with a weapon. See also “Weapon.”
So, as part of True Strike, you make an attack roll with a Weapon. That fulfils the criteria for a Weapon Attack as per the Glossary, and I can’t find anything that indicates that Weapon Attacks and Spell Attacks are mutually exclusive categories in 2024. Thus, as long as True Strike is made with a Light Weapon, and is being made using War Magic as part off the Attack Actuon, it should satisfy the requirements for Nick.
Edit: Thinking about it, bringing in Weapon Attacks might have over-complicated the argument, as the rules in question don’t reference them. I just wanted to look at whether there was any rule reference that indicated that an attack as part of a spell couldn’t also be an “attack with a weapon”.
A spell attack and a weapon attack are both attacks, but a weapon attack ("attack with a weapon") is not a spell attack and vice versa, so it is very important what kind of attack the spell specifies. The spell attack from Fire Bolt is an attack, but it is not a weapon attack. True Strike provides a weapon attack.
True Strike allows you to make an attack with your weapon, but as far as the attack roll is concerned, the only thing that is changed is that your spell casting modifier is used instead of Strength or Dexterity. This is a melee attack if you are using a melee weapon or a ranged attack if you are using a ranged weapon.
You hurl a mote of fire at a creature or an object within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 Fire damage. A flammable object hit by this spell starts burning if it isn’t being worn or carried.
Channeling the chill of the grave, make a melee spell attack against a target within reach. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 Necrotic damage, and it can’t regain Hit Points until the end of your next turn.
This time it tells you to make a melee spell attack roll.
The distinction is important because:
Different things modify spell attack rolls versus weapon attack rolls. (A +x weapon adds to weapon attack rolls, a +x Wand of the War Mages adds to spell attack rolls; you wouldn't want all weapon attacks to use your Wand's bonus just because you used True Strike)
If your strength or dexterity was higher than your spellcasting stat (for example, an Eldritch Knight), if True Strike used a spell attack roll, you would be forced to use your spellcasting stat instead.
I'm fairly sure War Magic is intended to replace of the attacks from the Attackaction itself and not other soruce.
Would you allow War Magic to be used on the extra attack granted by haste?
Absolutely, because it is granting an extra attack as an action. Which is different from Action Surge which restricted magic action. That would work as long as con is not broken (or if using potion of speed - no con needed)..
I'm fairly sure War Magic is intended to replace of the attacks from the Attackaction itself and not other soruce.
Would you allow War Magic to be used on the extra attack granted by haste?
Absolutely, because it is granting an extra attack as an action. Which is different from Action Surge which restricted magic action. That would work as long as con is not broken (or if using potion of speed - no con needed)..
Action Surge works just fine since it allows the Attack action, during which War Magic allows you to replace one attack with a Wizard spell with a casting of 1 action.
Oof now that we're talking haste and action surge, technically you could cast 3 cantrips.
Use your regular action to attack, which then qualifies for a replacing an attack with a cantrip from war magic.
Action surge, you take the attack action again, which would technically mean you now have the option to replace an attack again.
Finally with haste, you are taking the attack action a third time. Which again would trigger war magic again since war magic simply states when you take the attack action you can replace one of the attacks with a cantrip. I would say that's probably not RAI but it would be RAW.
Oof now that we're talking haste and action surge, technically you could cast 3 cantrips.
Use your regular action to attack, which then qualifies for a replacing an attack with a cantrip from war magic.
Action surge, you take the attack action again, which would technically mean you now have the option to replace an attack again.
Finally with haste, you are taking the attack action a third time. Which again would trigger war magic again since war magic simply states when you take the attack action you can replace one of the attacks with a cantrip. I would say that's probably not RAI but it would be RAW.
Throw in War Caster for spells as an attack of opportunity and go nuts. And War Caster isn't restricted to Cantrips like War Magic is.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a casting of one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
I think, because of the highlighted phrase, I would rule that War Magic and Nick are not generally compatible. As Thezzaruz said, a cantrip is not a Light weapon
[snip]
I disagree with this logic. The restrictions on the extra attack don't apply if you aren't making an attack.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a casting of one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
I think, because of the highlighted phrase, I would rule that War Magic and Nick are not generally compatible. As Thezzaruz said, a cantrip is not a Light weapon
[snip]
I disagree with this logic. The restrictions on the extra attack don't apply if you aren't making an attack.
If you are a level 7 Eldritch Knight using the Attack Action. You have 2 attacks. If you use one to attack with a Light Weapon and the Nick Mastery applies, you have 3 attacks that are part of the attack action, 2 normal attacks and one extra attack from the Light property.
War Magic lets you substitute one attack with a Cantrip. Ideally, you would want to substitute the extra attack from the Light property because it is not going to get your attribute modifier to damage.
However, in order to have that extra attack, you must attack with a different Light Weapon.
If you are attacking with a Cantrip, you are not "attacking with a different Light Weapon" and therefore no longer qualify for the extra attack you were attempting to replace.
Exceptions might be argued for Green-flame Blade, Booming Blade, and True Strike which include weapon attacks as part of the cantrip effects. The safest option is to assume that you can only replace one of normal attacks and not the extra attack from the Light Property/Nick Mastery.
War Magic lets you substitute one attack with a Cantrip. Ideally, you would want to substitute the extra attack from the Light property because it is not going to get your attribute modifier to damage.
I only let War Magic replace one of the attacks from the Attack action, not the extra attack from the Light property.
War Magic lets you substitute one attack with a Cantrip. Ideally, you would want to substitute the extra attack from the Light property because it is not going to get your attribute modifier to damage.
I only let War Magic replace one of the attacks from the Attack action, not the extra attack from the Light property.
Yep. As mentioned, I don't know if it's valid for cantrips that include an attack if you use a light weapon (point 4). In general, it is not (point 3)
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a casting of one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
I think, because of the highlighted phrase, I would rule that War Magic and Nick are not generally compatible. As Thezzaruz said, a cantrip is not a Light weapon
[snip]
I disagree with this logic. The restrictions on the extra attack don't apply if you aren't making an attack.
If you are a level 7 Eldritch Knight using the Attack Action. You have 2 attacks. If you use one to attack with a Light Weapon and the Nick Mastery applies, you have 3 attacks that are part of the attack action, 2 normal attacks and one extra attack from the Light property.
War Magic lets you substitute one attack with a Cantrip. Ideally, you would want to substitute the extra attack from the Light property because it is not going to get your attribute modifier to damage.
However, in order to have that extra attack, you must attack with a different Light Weapon.
If you are attacking with a Cantrip, you are not "attacking with a different Light Weapon" and therefore no longer qualify for the extra attack you were attempting to replace.
Exceptions might be argued for Green-flame Blade, Booming Blade, and True Strike which include weapon attacks as part of the cantrip effects. The safest option is to assume that you can only replace one of normal attacks and not the extra attack from the Light Property/Nick Mastery.
The text says you must make that attack with a different light weapon, not that you must attack with a light weapon. Therefore, if you aren't making the attack, it doesn't need to use a different light weapon. (italic emphasis mine)
If you are a level 7 Eldritch Knight using the Attack Action. You have 2 attacks. If you use one to attack with a Light Weapon and the Nick Mastery applies, you have 3 attacks that are part of the attack action, 2 normal attacks and one extra attack from the Light property.
War Magic lets you substitute one attack with a Cantrip. Ideally, you would want to substitute the extra attack from the Light property because it is not going to get your attribute modifier to damage.
However, in order to have that extra attack, you must attack with a different Light Weapon.
If you are attacking with a Cantrip, you are not "attacking with a different Light Weapon" and therefore no longer qualify for the extra attack you were attempting to replace.
Exceptions might be argued for Green-flame Blade, Booming Blade, and True Strike which include weapon attacks as part of the cantrip effects. The safest option is to assume that you can only replace one of normal attacks and not the extra attack from the Light Property/Nick Mastery.
The text says you must make that attack with a different light weapon, not that you must attack with a light weapon. Therefore, if you aren't making the attack, it doesn't need to use a different light weapon. (italic emphasis mine)
I am not sure I follow. Let's say I am fighting with one Dagger and one Sickle, I have the Nick Mastery, and I take the Attack action in different scenarios.
I attack with a Dagger and add my attribute modifier to the damage. The extra attack from Light was moved to be part of the Attack action. I then want to replace that extra attack (from the Light property) with a casting of True Strike using the Sickle and do not add my attribute modifier to the damage. Finally, I have the extra attack from Extra Attack class feature and attack with the Dagger and add my attribute modifier to the damage.
I attack with a Dagger and add my attribute modifier to the damage. I then want to replace that extra attack from the Extra Attack Feature with a casting of True Strike using the Sickle and add my attribute modifier to the damage. The extra attack from Light was moved to be part of the Attack action. I then attack using the Dagger and do not add my attribute modifier to the damage.
I attack with a Dagger and add my attribute modifier to the damage. The extra attack from Light was moved to be part of the Attack action. I then want to replace that extra attack (from the Light property) with a casting of True Strike using the Dagger and do not add my attribute modifier to the damage. Finally, I have the extra attack from Extra Attack class feature and attack with the Dagger and add my attribute modifier to the damage.
Which ones do you think are valid?
I think RAW, only 2 is definitely valid. 1 is effectively the same as 2. Were you advocating for 3 being valid?
I did a search on these forums with similar questions. I have a question specifically about Shillelagh and extra attack and opportunity attacks with a Level 5 Battle Master (Dueling Fighting Style +2, +3 STR and +3 WIS) with 1 Level of Druid...
I am trying to plan out and optimizing my damage output for my attack and extra attack. I often use a Longsword with the SAP Mastery, so I was thinking of taking 1 level of Druid and Shillelagh, since it will increase my 1d8 damage to 1d10 (using a Quarterstaff shaped like a sword, which would have the TOPPLE Mastery). Since Shillelagh is cast upon the weapon, that means the 1d10 damage would apply to the extra attack as well and opportunity attacks as well for the duration of that spell, correct?
I am trying to plan out and optimizing my damage output for my attack and extra attack. I often use a Longsword with the SAP Mastery, so I was thinking of taking 1 level of Druid and Shillelagh, since it will increase my 1d8 damage to 1d10 (using a Quarterstaff shaped like a sword, which would have the TOPPLE Mastery). Since Shillelagh is cast upon the weapon, that means the 1d10 damage would apply to the extra attack as well and opportunity attacks as well for the duration of that spell, correct?
Yeah, that's correct.
(If you choose to get the Polearm Master feat, Shillelagh's damage die won't apply to the bonus action strike from that.)
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Can't speak for anyone else, but I think it's clear that you can. Haste grants the Attack action, War Magic can replace attacks of the Attack action.
Agreed. Haste says you can't use the extra action to take the Magic action, but it doesn't say it can't be used to cast spells via other means.
pronouns: he/she/they
Yes. It grants an attack action. It's limited to one attack, but it's fair game. It doesn't override the limit on one spell cast with a spell slot per turn though.
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....which is irrelevant for War Magic, since it can only be used with cantrips
I agree that War Magic would work with Haste. I just don't see, within the rules, what the difference is between an extra attack granted by Haste and an extra attack granted by Light/Nick. They're both done as part of an Attack action
Active characters:
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Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
One is conditional on using a Light (possibly one with Nick) weapon to make it. The argument is that, because of the preconditions, you can't go "I'll attack with my scimitar... just kidding, I cast a spell." It has merit, but, as I said above, there's not enough text there to officially rule either way.
Text for True Strike:
Guided by a flash of magical insight, you make one attack with the weapon used in the spell’s casting. The attack uses your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls instead of using Strength or Dexterity. If the attack deals damage, it can be Radiant damage or the weapon’s normal damage type (your choice).
Text for Weapon Attack (from Glossary):
A weapon attack is an attack roll made with a weapon. See also “Weapon.”
So, as part of True Strike, you make an attack roll with a Weapon. That fulfils the criteria for a Weapon Attack as per the Glossary, and I can’t find anything that indicates that Weapon Attacks and Spell Attacks are mutually exclusive categories in 2024. Thus, as long as True Strike is made with a Light Weapon, and is being made using War Magic as part off the Attack Actuon, it should satisfy the requirements for Nick.
Edit: Thinking about it, bringing in Weapon Attacks might have over-complicated the argument, as the rules in question don’t reference them. I just wanted to look at whether there was any rule reference that indicated that an attack as part of a spell couldn’t also be an “attack with a weapon”.
A spell attack and a weapon attack are both attacks, but a weapon attack ("attack with a weapon") is not a spell attack and vice versa, so it is very important what kind of attack the spell specifies. The spell attack from Fire Bolt is an attack, but it is not a weapon attack. True Strike provides a weapon attack.
True Strike allows you to make an attack with your weapon, but as far as the attack roll is concerned, the only thing that is changed is that your spell casting modifier is used instead of Strength or Dexterity. This is a melee attack if you are using a melee weapon or a ranged attack if you are using a ranged weapon.
By comparison, look at Fire Bolt.
It tells you to make a ranged spell attack roll.
Also look at Chill Touch
This time it tells you to make a melee spell attack roll.
The distinction is important because:
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Yes i would, since haste let you take the Attack action and make one attack, which War Magic can replace.
Absolutely, because it is granting an extra attack as an action. Which is different from Action Surge which restricted magic action.
That would work as long as con is not broken (or if using potion of speed - no con needed)..
Action Surge works just fine since it allows the Attack action, during which War Magic allows you to replace one attack with a Wizard spell with a casting of 1 action.
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Oof now that we're talking haste and action surge, technically you could cast 3 cantrips.
Use your regular action to attack, which then qualifies for a replacing an attack with a cantrip from war magic.
Action surge, you take the attack action again, which would technically mean you now have the option to replace an attack again.
Finally with haste, you are taking the attack action a third time. Which again would trigger war magic again since war magic simply states when you take the attack action you can replace one of the attacks with a cantrip. I would say that's probably not RAI but it would be RAW.
Throw in War Caster for spells as an attack of opportunity and go nuts. And War Caster isn't restricted to Cantrips like War Magic is.
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I disagree with this logic. The restrictions on the extra attack don't apply if you aren't making an attack.
If you are a level 7 Eldritch Knight using the Attack Action. You have 2 attacks. If you use one to attack with a Light Weapon and the Nick Mastery applies, you have 3 attacks that are part of the attack action, 2 normal attacks and one extra attack from the Light property.
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I only let War Magic replace one of the attacks from the Attack action, not the extra attack from the Light property.
Yep. As mentioned, I don't know if it's valid for cantrips that include an attack if you use a light weapon (point 4). In general, it is not (point 3)
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The text says you must make that attack with a different light weapon, not that you must attack with a light weapon. Therefore, if you aren't making the attack, it doesn't need to use a different light weapon. (italic emphasis mine)
I am not sure I follow. Let's say I am fighting with one Dagger and one Sickle, I have the Nick Mastery, and I take the Attack action in different scenarios.
Which ones do you think are valid?
I think RAW, only 2 is definitely valid. 1 is effectively the same as 2. Were you advocating for 3 being valid?
How to add Tooltips.
I did a search on these forums with similar questions. I have a question specifically about Shillelagh and extra attack and opportunity attacks with a Level 5 Battle Master (Dueling Fighting Style +2, +3 STR and +3 WIS) with 1 Level of Druid...
I am trying to plan out and optimizing my damage output for my attack and extra attack. I often use a Longsword with the SAP Mastery, so I was thinking of taking 1 level of Druid and Shillelagh, since it will increase my 1d8 damage to 1d10 (using a Quarterstaff shaped like a sword, which would have the TOPPLE Mastery). Since Shillelagh is cast upon the weapon, that means the 1d10 damage would apply to the extra attack as well and opportunity attacks as well for the duration of that spell, correct?
Yeah, that's correct.
(If you choose to get the Polearm Master feat, Shillelagh's damage die won't apply to the bonus action strike from that.)