Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Here is a related question;
I'm a level 12 Bard/8 Assassin Rogue. When I gain an extra 30,000 XP can I gain a level in Rogue or do features like Infiltration Expertise remain permanently out of my grasp at this point?
Up to your DM as Character Advancement only goes up to level 20 and Player's Handbook offer no other guideline.
The Dungeon Master Guide might have more on this topic.
I looked in the DMG, and there was nothing there that I could find.
I'm wondering if there might be something in later books to expand on a post-20 game for the 2024 rules. Still, right now, my read seems to be that no, you don't continue to gain features because you don't really 'level' past 20 since the Bonus Feats rule doesn't mention anything like continuing to gain hit dice and specifically uses the term 'no more levels to gain.'
Still, I'm wondering how other people read it. Sometimes, their interpretations surprise me, and sometimes, someone points out something I didn't even realize existed (e.g., spells with a range of Self, no Area, but that clearly Targets someone other than the caster).
Is there anything official from WoTC about when you get the epic boon? There are plenty of people who think that if you multiclass, you don't get the epic boon, or any feat, at 19th level. This is from Roll20:
" If you're level 15 of one class, then 2 of another, then 3 of a third, you're not going to get [the epic boon] because you didn't get a feat at levels 19 or 20."
But what you've written is contradictory. If you get to level 16 in one class and 4 in another, you never get to 19th level in any class, and never get the opportunity to get the epic boon which is a 19th level feature. If you get it in your situation, you should get in the other situation (15+2+3). Essentially, iin the 16+4 situation you may get a feat, but you only get an epic boon feat if you get to level 19 in the class. If you get it if you hit 19 total levels, then you should get it at any combination - 16+3, or 15+2+2.
This is why I think there needs to be a clarification/ruling/errata from WoTC. Do you get the Epic Boon when you have 19 levels in any combination, or do you have to get to 19th level in ONE class, to get the class feature, that gives you an Epic Boon.
You're level 20 and with your level 4 Ability Score Improvement Class Feature, you can select an Epic Boon feat with another feat of your choice for which you qualify being Level 19+.
But, you never get to the class feature that grants you the ability to take the epic boon feat!
The rules say that you can't take/use a feature until your class table says you qualify for that feature. You don't qualify for the epic boon feat until you hit level 19 in ONE class.
This is why (a) I think this needs clarification from WoTC; (b) why the 2024 rules ARE VERY BADLY WRITTEN AND ARE MOSTLY GARBAGE.
There is nothing in the rules that indicates that. You might as well say you need to be level 19+ in fighter.
This is correct. All of the ability score improvement features say "You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify." Epic boon feats are still feats just like general and origin feats. The qualification is listed with each feat in parentheses and the epic boons all have (level 19+) not (class level 19+). The name of the epic boon class feature and ability score improvement class feature tend to trip people up.
This is a pretty poor example (at least poorly worded). Because if you take those levels in the order of 15 then 2 then 3 then it is correct that you don't gain any feat at level 19 (or above). But if you wait until the end to take level 14 and 15 of the Fighter class then you actually do get an ASI class feature at level 19.
While I do think that parts of the rules are poorly written that isn't the case with this rule though, it is short, simple and easy to follow. The only issue here is that some people assume that the written rules doesn't match the intention of the rule. And that might well be true but until we get some errata that says so I don't see any problem with following the current rule.
An errata will be required if Epic Boon feat aren't intended to be taken with Ability Score Improvement feature when your total character level 19+
Well, I think WOTC really should put an "official" ruling. With WOTC either getting rid of, or being unable to hold onto some of their greatest game designers, I do wonder if or when we might get that ruling. I do see where either side could be correct.
#1. When I look under class features in the class features table. The player's character does not get a Epic Boon until they reach level 19 in that class. So, when I look there, I agree with the "You must be level 19 in a class." Plus, while Roll20 isn't WOTC. They do give a clear explanation backing this up.
#2. When you look under each Epic Boon Feat it does say level 19+ prerequisite. I do see where one can read that take it, that this means total character level is 19.
Still, quoting the 2024 Player's Handbook Chapter 5: Feats, it does state (emphasis mine) "Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify."
So, my thoughts are these...
So, adding all of that together, since in Chapter 5 it does spell out your class (not your classes) gives you the feat, it is spelled out on each class's table as well as it being spelled out in each class's features, the Epic Boon is not available, till a person gets to level 19 in that class. I would rule that we need to honor the "your class" in Chapter 5 as well a both the class's table as well as class's detailed features stating it is a class level 19 feature.
That is my take.
Remember each table can rule as they wish. As E Gary Gygax did state, "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules."
Still, I would like WOTC to make if "official" as I doubted I changed many people's take on this. That and I have heard a fair number of DMs complain (at least with 2014 rules) that it was hard to challenge high level characters.
Overall, I think the most important thing is that EVERYONE at every table should have fun. While, at times the best thing for a player to do is to walk away from a group that they do not gel with, they should discuss this as a group and come and an agreement all can work with. :)
So your argument amounts to the sentence "Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify." containing "...your class gives you the... feat..."? That sentence also contains, "...your class gives you... another feat for which you qualify."
You also say that a proof is that the level 19 feature is called Epic Boon. Aside from that type of thing only being useful in determining RAI, the asi feature is called Ability Score Improvement. Does that mean there is no other way to increase your ability scores?
The ASI is the easiest and main way from what I understand to permanently increase an ability score. Granted, some classes many have a feature that grants ability score improvements, like the level 20 Monk feature increasing their dexterity and wisdom by 4 to a max of 25. There are also magic items that can help. I would suspect some DMs might allow Wish to be used to increase an ability score.
I’m just jumping back into this thread because I was looking for answers about going “beyond level 20”.
Had DnDBeyond figured out a way to add in the additional feats for the 30,000XP after level 20? I was doing it while bored with a dummy character and wasn’t seeing any options for that.
Also, this is my take on the 19th class level VS 19th character level. This is why I believe its 19th class level: let’s say for instance we are multiclassing and going with a Gloomstalker/Assassin/Battlemaster. I will not be doing a level by level progression. Just try to follow along.
Currently, we are building a level 11, with our first 5 levels in Ranger, next 3 in Assassin, and the last 3 in Fighter.
So, after reaching level 5, we take the class features for ranger level 1-5. We are now level up and are level 8.
Since the next 3 levels are going into rogue.
we don’t take end up with the rogue level 6th, 7th, and 8th level features with the next 3 levels; you get 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level features.
Same with the next 3 levels in Fighter; we get class features for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd levels, not 9th, 10th, or 11th.
If the multiclassing system just gave you THAT level feature for a class when you multi’d into it, there would be absolutely broken builds just based on which class was chosen at a specific level.
I now go both ways. As a person whom likes to multiclass I would like to get it at character level 19. While, I do like to mid-max a bit, I am not the best at it. Plus, I think the multi-class has to make sense with the adventure. Still, I agree with your concern as I have played with people that are really good at mid-maxing. It does kind of ruin the fun when one person is steamrolling over all the opponents. For that I do like the having to wait till level 19 in a class. A good table with thoughtful players I would be now fine with an Epic Boon at character level 19. This there should only be ONE between level 19 and 20. I know there is this idea of doing 8 levels in one class and 12 in another with the right timing to get 2 Epic Boon Feats, That, I am not for.
Still using your example of playing at level 20 for quite a while and getting the occasional extra feat/Epic Boon. That I think is quite reasonable.
Granted I still suspect most people playing most adventures will rarely get up to level 19. :)
That is RAW and you are giving up quite a bit to do. You wind up with the same number of feats, but one might be stronger than one of the rest of your party. However, your class features will be weaker to accommodate it. If your sole goal is to get 2 epic boons, it is generally more advantageous to split 16/4. If for example, that is 16 levels of Wizard, you are not getting Signature Spell, Spell Mastery, 9th level spells, one less each of 5th, 6th, and 7th level spells, and you are preparing 4 less spells per day. You can mitigate the spell slot loss if you multiclassed into another spellcasting class. In return, you are getting the early benefits of another class, plus one feat is upgraded to an Epic Boon.
In essence, the Epic Boon becomes a sort of multiclass cap stone ability.
What exactly are you concerned with a level 20 character pulling off?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
On one hand, doing the 16-4/12-8 trick guarantees you two epic boons when done correctly. On the other, you can in theory and depending on the game/dungeon master acquire all of them just through progression. So ultimately it depends just how broken it is. You may very well miss out on other abilities trying to play it like that.