I think that text summarises the lead up plus the first round of combat. The cube is sneaking; the party is unaware; DM asks all to roll initiative; DM rules all PCs are surprised, so no matter who rolled highest it will be the cube that moves first; in its first turn it makes its engulf attack. The only way for the party to prevent the inevitable engulf would be things like the Alert feat.
I think that text summarises the lead up plus the first round of combat. The cube is sneaking; the party is unaware; DM asks all to roll initiative; DM rules all PCs are surprised, so no matter who rolled highest it will be the cube that moves first; in its first turn it makes its engulf attack. The only way for the party to prevent the inevitable engulf would be things like the Alert feat.
Agreed. The PHB uses a lot of flavour text to narrate examples of what's happening through the mechanics.
Furthermore the cube is used as an example because it has many abilities and features that are designed to give it surprise. Being transparent. Using it's 'Ooze Cube' feature - it's a notoriously hard creature to spot before it surprises the party. A good example to use, but not really anything to do with taking actions outside of initiative.
I'm not contesting issue #1. The mechanics completely ruin the assassin sub-class, there's no point to it. I would feel compelled as a DM to house rule to fix it.
How does it ruin it? I'm not saying you're wrong - just interested.
Assassins automatically get advantage - and therefore sneak attack damage - on any creature that hasn't taken their first turn yet, whether you've surprised them or not. That's powerful.
In addition, if they are surprised, then you get a critical hit, which includes your sneak attack damage as well. As a rogue, where you'll be more often than not getting the drop on targets, that's going to be a fair amount of the time, assuming you are above them in the initiative order. That's very powerful.
"... In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight..." - Jeremy Crawford
(Other stuff)
"... In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight..." - Jeremy Crawford. It is a good quote that explains exactly why the surprised creature's turn isn't skipped. It seems like you have not considered the meaning of the words "in effect". It means that the effect is the same as if the turn was skipped (because a creature cannot do anything on that turn), but that it technically isn't skipped.
"So from the time you moved up beside him "he doesn't know you are there", but when you push the knife into his kidneys all of a sudden "he happens to be wary, alert, or on the balls of his feet," Umm, it would be more believable if the DM just said, "you're a failure and you missed your critical."" If your target is higher on the initiative list, and you went for an attack while he is reacting really fast, then you most likely didn't push the knife into his kidneys. Maybe that was your character's intent but everything doesn't always go according to plan. If that was so you wouldn't even need a DM, as you would act as the DM yourself. It is the DM that tells you if you "push your knife into his kidneys". In this case you went for it, but your target reacted so fast (high initiative, fast reaction/reflex time) that your dagger hit a non-vital part of his body. After all your target is still awake. The Assassinate feature doesn't mean that your target is suddenly suffering from the Unconscious condition, though effectively you treat him as if he was to an extent (except Assassinate is stronger as you don't need to be within 5 feet to get the critical hit). You can still miss your target as well.
"Surprise doesn't last forever" Yes I was obviously exaggerating when I asked if you believed that surprise lasted forever. But you seem to think that it should last until you get what you believe your class owes you, and it really seems to screw with your perception of RAW. If you don't like RAW you can always home-brew it.
"Getting "lucky" is exactly my grievance" I am not sure what to say about this. Personally I am really happy that the designers have actually managed to include luck in the mechanics on such a subtle level. In my opinion it adds a touch of reality, and I always appreciate that in any game. If you don't appreciate this I can understand why it would frustrate you.
"Lets look at the other Rogue sub-classes and their abilities ... the assassin has JUST THIS ... the wording of RAW screws them" As for the other subclasses, I can see how you feel the Assassin subclass might be inferior because its signature feature doesn't trigger all the time. But it is also vastly stronger than any of the features from the other subclasses. It would be completely unbalanced if the Assassin made a critical hit in the beginning of every combat by default. The feature grant you the potential to become very strong, but as with all features you need to be in the right circumstances to use it optimally. The circumstances in this case are more difficult to achieve than other features because it is that much stronger. It makes sense that an Assassin, who has the potential to be extremely deadly, would want to improve the circumstances (focus on dexterity, choose the Alert feat) so that it could reach its potential. No one becomes really powerful (or a one-shot death machine by default starting level 3) without any thought about the specific circumstances surrounding the character.
As the cube gets close enough to engulf the target does everyone roll initiative instead of the cube getting to engulf someone right away?
Yes that is exactly how it works according to my understanding of RAW. I can see how it is unclear considering it is written in the descriptive part of the Surprised section.
It's relevant for the cases where the guard is surprised. You're not going to tip the player off when the guard takes his turn because the guard isn't going to do anything with his turn.
You're being facetious. The player will be tipped off when the DM says he can't roll for crits. It's obvious what happened...
By then they've already committed to moving and attacking. The whole point of hiding the enemy's initiative is to avoid situations like:
Player: "I want to attack the guard."
DM: "Roll initiative."
Player, having seen they've lost initiative: "Never mind, I don't want to attack the guard."
The way I see it, you're controlling the narrative, as a DM, to explain a broken game mechanic.
As the person in charge of the narrative, it's the DM's job to make sure they apply the mechanics and interpret the results of any dice rolls in a way that makes sense to the story. A mechanic isn't broken just because you choose to apply it in a way that doesn't make sense or because you don't like how situational Assassinate is.
I don't care how you apply the narrative to explain the outcome of the dice rolls. What I am concerned about is there are too many dice rolls for a defining feature of a sub-class that is highly situational and rare to begin with.
The assassin (and the entire party) has to not fail a stealth vs perception check, or else the skill is not available.
The assassin has to win initiative
The assassin has to actually HIT the target (To-Hit vs. AC)
The assassin has to not roll like shit with the damage dice to make it all worth it.
All of the above can only happen at the beginning of a battle. DMG suggests 1 adventuring day is broken into thirds (2 short rests, then 1 long rest), so on average an assassin can expect to roll initiative 3 times. The rest of the time, the "feature" is not available.
And why do you guys think an auto-crit is so amazing it has to be buried under so many dice rolls? ANY class can crit by being lucky with the dice. The Inquisitor and Swashbuckler sub-classes can repeatedly sneak attack with their skills. Those will quickly outpace any "lucky" crit the Assassin can put out at the beginning of the battle, and to make matters worse, the Inquisitor and the Swashbuckler can crit too, with their sneak attack dice in play.
The assassin gets the short end of the stick. Basically an assassin is a rogue that didn't pick a sub-class until level 9.
The assassin also gets advantage on any creature that hasn't taken a turn yet. Which is useful in and of itself.
The chances of being higher in the initiative order than a target are considerably higher than relying on rolling natural 20s for critical. Especially when you consider assassins primary stat is likely to be dexterity. Being able to get a critical sneak attack, with advantage, on a target without having to roll a nat20 is very powerful.
1. I don't care how you apply the narrative to explain the outcome of the dice rolls. What I am concerned about is there are too many dice rolls for a defining feature of a sub-class that is highly situational and rare to begin with.
2. And why do you guys think an auto-crit is so amazing it has to be buried under so many dice rolls? ANY class can crit by being lucky with the dice.
3. The Inquisitor and Swashbuckler sub-classes can repeatedly sneak attack with their skills.
1. It is difficult to get a critical hit because it is very powerful, especially for a low-level Rogue. And the situation you are referring to is only going to be 'rare' if you treat it as something you are entitled to. If you work with your character so it gets easier to be stealthy and first in the initiative order (expertise in stealth at level 1 [+4 stealth], Alert [+5 initiative] level 1 [if human variant], focus on dex [potential +3 to initiative, hit, stealth, and damage]), it will be much less 'rare'.
2. Most other classes have a 5% chance of making a critical hit. The Assassin 'just' needs to fulfil the Assassinate requirements which is much more plausible, especially if you put a little effort into it and take some steps to make it that way (as I suggested above). If you went with the suggested steps above, you'd have +7 to stealth and +8 to initiative, and a +5 to hit, starting at level 1. Your opponent will most likely only have around +2 to initiative. This means that you will effectively have +6 initiative against such targets, which is a VERY big advantage.
3. Most rogues can repeatedly sneak attack without any special skills. They just need to be either unseen or have a friend within 5 feet of the target (which is very often the case).
Also, rogues are generally already very likely to be going first, or at least in the higher half of the initiative order. For many rogues this is actually an annoyance, as with no allies engaged in melee yet, they'll have difficulty getting their sneak attack in that round. Assassins will almost always be able to sneak attack first round, and advantage also increases chance of that attack being a crit even without surprise. All you need is to have initiative higher than at least one enemy within your range. It all adds up to a significant chance of massive damage in the first round - possibly enough to kill something before it has had a chance to do anything at all. That is a power that should only be enhanced further with very careful thought.
2. Most other classes have a 5% chance of making a critical hit. The Assassin 'just' needs to fulfil the Assassinate requirements which is much more plausible, especially if you put a little effort into it and take some steps to make it that way (as I suggested above). If you went with the suggested steps above, you'd have +7 to stealth and +8 to initiative, and a +5 to hit, starting at level 1. Your opponent will most likely only have around +2 to initiative. This means that you will effectively have +6 initiative against such targets, which is a VERY big advantage.
The assassin's sub class has no utility. It is 100% combat oriented until lvl 9, and it only maybe works for 1 round on 1 enemy. You're min-maxing a character to make a broken mechanic less broken, and breaking your class in the process. Perception, Investigation and other social skills are going to be used WAY more often. Min-Maxing the assassinate ability makes you useless everywhere else. You'll be stumbling into traps, failing at finding things, failing persuasions, deceptions, etc... where you wouldn't be if you built your rogue to be "well-rounded". All to trigger an ability that only works once in an entire battle.
You go ahead and limit yourself to one race, get a feat that will make sure you go first and play the character way ahead of your party, to avoid having them break your signature ability (boy, your party will love you!). Then when you finally succeed with your "amazing" critical hit, you will get swarmed and pummeled by the enemy's allies while far away from your party's support, or the enemy you didn't kill is going to clobber your sorry AC and HP to the ground.
Using narrative to explain a broken mechanic, and min-maxing a class to improve a broken mechanic, is not justification nor does it make it acceptable. A well balanced, well built rogue that is smart enough to never take the Assassin sub-class will be more successful and more useful to the rest of her party. And that is the definition of "unbalanced", or as far as I care, "broken".
2. Most other classes have a 5% chance of making a critical hit. The Assassin 'just' needs to fulfil the Assassinate requirements which is much more plausible, especially if you put a little effort into it and take some steps to make it that way (as I suggested above). If you went with the suggested steps above, you'd have +7 to stealth and +8 to initiative, and a +5 to hit, starting at level 1. Your opponent will most likely only have around +2 to initiative. This means that you will effectively have +6 initiative against such targets, which is a VERY big advantage.
The assassin's sub class has no utility. It is 100% combat oriented until lvl 9, and it only maybe works for 1 round on 1 enemy. You're min-maxing a character to make a broken mechanic less broken, and breaking your class in the process. Perception, Investigation and other social skills are going to be used WAY more often. Min-Maxing the assassinate ability makes you useless everywhere else. You'll be stumbling into traps, failing at finding things, failing persuasions, deceptions, etc... where you wouldn't be if you built your rogue to be "well-rounded". All to trigger an ability that only works once in an entire battle.
The only thing I suggested that most rogues might not do was to get the Alert feat. That is not trying to make up for a broken mechanic, it is simply taking the context (and your chosen sub-class) into account.That's what feats are for (helping your character customisation). If you feel that everything should come ready-made and go your way without you putting in any effort into it, then I suggest you convince your DM to let you get default critical hits on first attacks or something, or perhaps play games starting at level 9.
Again I did not max-min anything, I only tried to show how a little effort would affect your sub-class specialisation because you seem to find it lacking. I didn't say that you couldn't focus on other stats. The Rogue class itself is balanced. The sub-classes are specialisations, so of course they are unbalanced compared to the other specialisations. The Assassin sub-class has the potential for most burst damage and is what most people consider to be the most offensive specialisation. Normally you wouldn't pick the most offensive specialisation only to complain about how it is centered around burst damage. And you seem to be arguing two things. First you talk about how you want it to be even more deadly, and then you talk about how it is not versatile enough. If you want a versatile sub-class then you have plenty to choose from.
You go ahead and limit yourself to one race, get a feat that will make sure you go first and play the character way ahead of your party, to avoid having them break your signature ability (boy, your party will love you!). Then when you finally succeed with your "amazing" critical hit, you will get swarmed and pummeled by the enemy's allies while far away from your party's support, or the enemy you didn't kill is going to clobber your sorry AC and HP to the ground.
If you are the kind of player who goes on solo missions, leave your party behind, and go all rambo on a group of enemies in the middle of nowhere, that's on you not your chosen sub-class. You could simply communicate with your party and come up with a simple plan.
I'm going to step out of this conversation as I feel that we have absolutely zero common ground to base this discussion on. I hope you figure something out.
Here is the thing: a surprised creature can't move or take any action in the first round of combat. They also can't take a reaction until the end of their next turn.
So, even if they roll high initiative, they do not ACT before the Assassin. As I'm reading it, whenever the Assassin successfully sneaks up on the enemy, the features should kick in.
Here is the thing: a surprised creature can't move or take any action in the first round of combat. They also can't take a reaction until the end of their next turn.
So, even if they roll high initiative, they do not ACT before the Assassin. As I'm reading it, whenever the Assassin successfully sneaks up on the enemy, the features should kick in.
The assassin's assassinate feature specifies:
You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet
A surprised creature still takes its turn, it just can't do anything with it.
However, a creature is surprised for the entirety of its first round in combat, so the second half of that ability applied until the end of the first round
Sucks, but I suppose that you would still get advantage if you were sufficiently hidden.
My question would be different. Say you have a party of 5, sneaking up on a bunch of marshmallow-roasting bandits. The Assassin rolls up a 30, but the Paladin nets a 5. The enemy knows about the Paladin, does that mean the Assassin lost all benefits?
However, a creature is surprised for the entirety of its first round in combat, so the second half of that ability applied until the end of the first round
I'm not sure that is entirely true.
A creature is only surprised until the end of its turn, not for the entirety of the first round, so the Assassinate abilities last sentence won't apply after they have "missed" their first turn.
Sucks, but I suppose that you would still get advantage if you were sufficiently hidden.
My question would be different. Say you have a party of 5, sneaking up on a bunch of marshmallow-roasting bandits. The Assassin rolls up a 30, but the Paladin nets a 5. The enemy knows about the Paladin, does that mean the Assassin lost all benefits?
Only if he's on the Paladin's shoulders!
Even if the bandits become aware of the Paladin, the assassin is still hidden and should benefit from taking the bandits by surprise
Sucks, but I suppose that you would still get advantage if you were sufficiently hidden.
My question would be different. Say you have a party of 5, sneaking up on a bunch of marshmallow-roasting bandits. The Assassin rolls up a 30, but the Paladin nets a 5. The enemy knows about the Paladin, does that mean the Assassin lost all benefits?
Only if he's on the Paladin's shoulders!
Even if the bandits become aware of the Palidin, the assassin is still hidden and should benefit from taking the bandits by surprise
As long as the Assassin rolls high enough on his Initiative :-)
the enemies notice the paladin, and is not surprised. But if the assassin wins initiative he still gets advantage since the enemies have not taken a turn yet.
I always assumed the Surprised condition ends at the end of its first turn in combat. This means that if the assassin rolls low on initiative they would not even get their ability which is bad I agree.
I think that text summarises the lead up plus the first round of combat. The cube is sneaking; the party is unaware; DM asks all to roll initiative; DM rules all PCs are surprised, so no matter who rolled highest it will be the cube that moves first; in its first turn it makes its engulf attack. The only way for the party to prevent the inevitable engulf would be things like the Alert feat.
Agreed. The PHB uses a lot of flavour text to narrate examples of what's happening through the mechanics.
Furthermore the cube is used as an example because it has many abilities and features that are designed to give it surprise. Being transparent. Using it's 'Ooze Cube' feature - it's a notoriously hard creature to spot before it surprises the party. A good example to use, but not really anything to do with taking actions outside of initiative.
How does it ruin it? I'm not saying you're wrong - just interested.
Assassins automatically get advantage - and therefore sneak attack damage - on any creature that hasn't taken their first turn yet, whether you've surprised them or not. That's powerful.
In addition, if they are surprised, then you get a critical hit, which includes your sneak attack damage as well. As a rogue, where you'll be more often than not getting the drop on targets, that's going to be a fair amount of the time, assuming you are above them in the initiative order. That's very powerful.
"... In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight..." - Jeremy Crawford.
It is a good quote that explains exactly why the surprised creature's turn isn't skipped. It seems like you have not considered the meaning of the words "in effect". It means that the effect is the same as if the turn was skipped (because a creature cannot do anything on that turn), but that it technically isn't skipped.
"So from the time you moved up beside him "he doesn't know you are there", but when you push the knife into his kidneys all of a sudden "he happens to be wary, alert, or on the balls of his feet," Umm, it would be more believable if the DM just said, "you're a failure and you missed your critical.""
If your target is higher on the initiative list, and you went for an attack while he is reacting really fast, then you most likely didn't push the knife into his kidneys. Maybe that was your character's intent but everything doesn't always go according to plan. If that was so you wouldn't even need a DM, as you would act as the DM yourself. It is the DM that tells you if you "push your knife into his kidneys". In this case you went for it, but your target reacted so fast (high initiative, fast reaction/reflex time) that your dagger hit a non-vital part of his body. After all your target is still awake. The Assassinate feature doesn't mean that your target is suddenly suffering from the Unconscious condition, though effectively you treat him as if he was to an extent (except Assassinate is stronger as you don't need to be within 5 feet to get the critical hit). You can still miss your target as well.
"Surprise doesn't last forever"
Yes I was obviously exaggerating when I asked if you believed that surprise lasted forever. But you seem to think that it should last until you get what you believe your class owes you, and it really seems to screw with your perception of RAW. If you don't like RAW you can always home-brew it.
"Getting "lucky" is exactly my grievance"
I am not sure what to say about this. Personally I am really happy that the designers have actually managed to include luck in the mechanics on such a subtle level. In my opinion it adds a touch of reality, and I always appreciate that in any game. If you don't appreciate this I can understand why it would frustrate you.
"Lets look at the other Rogue sub-classes and their abilities ... the assassin has JUST THIS ... the wording of RAW screws them"
As for the other subclasses, I can see how you feel the Assassin subclass might be inferior because its signature feature doesn't trigger all the time. But it is also vastly stronger than any of the features from the other subclasses. It would be completely unbalanced if the Assassin made a critical hit in the beginning of every combat by default. The feature grant you the potential to become very strong, but as with all features you need to be in the right circumstances to use it optimally. The circumstances in this case are more difficult to achieve than other features because it is that much stronger. It makes sense that an Assassin, who has the potential to be extremely deadly, would want to improve the circumstances (focus on dexterity, choose the Alert feat) so that it could reach its potential. No one becomes really powerful (or a one-shot death machine by default starting level 3) without any thought about the specific circumstances surrounding the character.
Yes that is exactly how it works according to my understanding of RAW. I can see how it is unclear considering it is written in the descriptive part of the Surprised section.
By then they've already committed to moving and attacking. The whole point of hiding the enemy's initiative is to avoid situations like:
As the person in charge of the narrative, it's the DM's job to make sure they apply the mechanics and interpret the results of any dice rolls in a way that makes sense to the story. A mechanic isn't broken just because you choose to apply it in a way that doesn't make sense or because you don't like how situational Assassinate is.
I don't care how you apply the narrative to explain the outcome of the dice rolls. What I am concerned about is there are too many dice rolls for a defining feature of a sub-class that is highly situational and rare to begin with.
All of the above can only happen at the beginning of a battle. DMG suggests 1 adventuring day is broken into thirds (2 short rests, then 1 long rest), so on average an assassin can expect to roll initiative 3 times. The rest of the time, the "feature" is not available.
And why do you guys think an auto-crit is so amazing it has to be buried under so many dice rolls? ANY class can crit by being lucky with the dice. The Inquisitor and Swashbuckler sub-classes can repeatedly sneak attack with their skills. Those will quickly outpace any "lucky" crit the Assassin can put out at the beginning of the battle, and to make matters worse, the Inquisitor and the Swashbuckler can crit too, with their sneak attack dice in play.
The assassin gets the short end of the stick. Basically an assassin is a rogue that didn't pick a sub-class until level 9.
The assassin also gets advantage on any creature that hasn't taken a turn yet. Which is useful in and of itself.
The chances of being higher in the initiative order than a target are considerably higher than relying on rolling natural 20s for critical. Especially when you consider assassins primary stat is likely to be dexterity. Being able to get a critical sneak attack, with advantage, on a target without having to roll a nat20 is very powerful.
1. It is difficult to get a critical hit because it is very powerful, especially for a low-level Rogue. And the situation you are referring to is only going to be 'rare' if you treat it as something you are entitled to. If you work with your character so it gets easier to be stealthy and first in the initiative order (expertise in stealth at level 1 [+4 stealth], Alert [+5 initiative] level 1 [if human variant], focus on dex [potential +3 to initiative, hit, stealth, and damage]), it will be much less 'rare'.
2. Most other classes have a 5% chance of making a critical hit. The Assassin 'just' needs to fulfil the Assassinate requirements which is much more plausible, especially if you put a little effort into it and take some steps to make it that way (as I suggested above). If you went with the suggested steps above, you'd have +7 to stealth and +8 to initiative, and a +5 to hit, starting at level 1. Your opponent will most likely only have around +2 to initiative. This means that you will effectively have +6 initiative against such targets, which is a VERY big advantage.
3. Most rogues can repeatedly sneak attack without any special skills. They just need to be either unseen or have a friend within 5 feet of the target (which is very often the case).
Also, rogues are generally already very likely to be going first, or at least in the higher half of the initiative order. For many rogues this is actually an annoyance, as with no allies engaged in melee yet, they'll have difficulty getting their sneak attack in that round. Assassins will almost always be able to sneak attack first round, and advantage also increases chance of that attack being a crit even without surprise. All you need is to have initiative higher than at least one enemy within your range. It all adds up to a significant chance of massive damage in the first round - possibly enough to kill something before it has had a chance to do anything at all. That is a power that should only be enhanced further with very careful thought.
The assassin's sub class has no utility. It is 100% combat oriented until lvl 9, and it only maybe works for 1 round on 1 enemy. You're min-maxing a character to make a broken mechanic less broken, and breaking your class in the process. Perception, Investigation and other social skills are going to be used WAY more often. Min-Maxing the assassinate ability makes you useless everywhere else. You'll be stumbling into traps, failing at finding things, failing persuasions, deceptions, etc... where you wouldn't be if you built your rogue to be "well-rounded". All to trigger an ability that only works once in an entire battle.
You go ahead and limit yourself to one race, get a feat that will make sure you go first and play the character way ahead of your party, to avoid having them break your signature ability (boy, your party will love you!). Then when you finally succeed with your "amazing" critical hit, you will get swarmed and pummeled by the enemy's allies while far away from your party's support, or the enemy you didn't kill is going to clobber your sorry AC and HP to the ground.
Using narrative to explain a broken mechanic, and min-maxing a class to improve a broken mechanic, is not justification nor does it make it acceptable. A well balanced, well built rogue that is smart enough to never take the Assassin sub-class will be more successful and more useful to the rest of her party. And that is the definition of "unbalanced", or as far as I care, "broken".
The only thing I suggested that most rogues might not do was to get the Alert feat. That is not trying to make up for a broken mechanic, it is simply taking the context (and your chosen sub-class) into account.That's what feats are for (helping your character customisation). If you feel that everything should come ready-made and go your way without you putting in any effort into it, then I suggest you convince your DM to let you get default critical hits on first attacks or something, or perhaps play games starting at level 9.
Again I did not max-min anything, I only tried to show how a little effort would affect your sub-class specialisation because you seem to find it lacking. I didn't say that you couldn't focus on other stats. The Rogue class itself is balanced. The sub-classes are specialisations, so of course they are unbalanced compared to the other specialisations. The Assassin sub-class has the potential for most burst damage and is what most people consider to be the most offensive specialisation. Normally you wouldn't pick the most offensive specialisation only to complain about how it is centered around burst damage. And you seem to be arguing two things. First you talk about how you want it to be even more deadly, and then you talk about how it is not versatile enough. If you want a versatile sub-class then you have plenty to choose from.
If you are the kind of player who goes on solo missions, leave your party behind, and go all rambo on a group of enemies in the middle of nowhere, that's on you not your chosen sub-class. You could simply communicate with your party and come up with a simple plan.
I'm going to step out of this conversation as I feel that we have absolutely zero common ground to base this discussion on. I hope you figure something out.
Here is the thing: a surprised creature can't move or take any action in the first round of combat. They also can't take a reaction until the end of their next turn.
So, even if they roll high initiative, they do not ACT before the Assassin. As I'm reading it, whenever the Assassin successfully sneaks up on the enemy, the features should kick in.
The assassin's assassinate feature specifies:
A surprised creature still takes its turn, it just can't do anything with it.
However, a creature is surprised for the entirety of its first round in combat, so the second half of that ability applied until the end of the first round
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Sucks, but I suppose that you would still get advantage if you were sufficiently hidden.
My question would be different. Say you have a party of 5, sneaking up on a bunch of marshmallow-roasting bandits. The Assassin rolls up a 30, but the Paladin nets a 5. The enemy knows about the Paladin, does that mean the Assassin lost all benefits?
I'm not sure that is entirely true.
A creature is only surprised until the end of its turn, not for the entirety of the first round, so the Assassinate abilities last sentence won't apply after they have "missed" their first turn.
See JC's tweet, https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/780832432240984064
Only if he's on the Paladin's shoulders!
Even if the bandits become aware of the Paladin, the assassin is still hidden and should benefit from taking the bandits by surprise
As long as the Assassin rolls high enough on his Initiative :-)
the enemies notice the paladin, and is not surprised. But if the assassin wins initiative he still gets advantage since the enemies have not taken a turn yet.
I always assumed the Surprised condition ends at the end of its first turn in combat. This means that if the assassin rolls low on initiative they would not even get their ability which is bad I agree.
my table plays a surprise round, so the assassin would always get to use their ability.
Assuming that everyone in the party is successfully hidden at the start of the round.