[Order of Scribes] Does the Wizardly Quill really NOT remove the gold cost for copying spells? (RAW vs RAI vs common sense)

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Frankly, I expect arguments like this are why they stopped dressing up the cost as specific materials and made it an overt cash gate in the rules.

Might also have just been in the spirit of not limiting flavor, i.e. my magical sticker book idea

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Frankly, I expect arguments like this are why they stopped dressing up the cost as specific materials and made it an overt cash gate in the rules.

 Yeah, I think you're correct.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Frankly, I expect arguments like this are why they stopped dressing up the cost as specific materials and made it an overt cash gate in the rules.

 

Might also have just been in the spirit of not limiting flavor, i.e. my magical sticker book idea

 Good point!

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Frankly, I expect arguments like this are why they stopped dressing up the cost as specific materials and made it an overt cash gate in the rules.

 

Might also have just been in the spirit of not limiting flavor, i.e. my magical sticker book idea

 
Honestly, that’d be a worse reason; I get tired of them scrimping on writing lore with the excuse that the people who are already going to ignore it when they want are being obstructed by the existence of some preexisting worldbuilding/characterization framework.

[Redacted]

If I want to have the Wizardly Quill eat the gold and turn that into whatever is needed to scribe the spell and the DM is okay with that, then I can do that!

I was simply pointing out that staunch defenders of RAW use the logic of "You should infer as little as possible from the words written" and that same logic can be used to conclude that going to a shop is not needed as you have to infer that because it is not explicitly stated. And, if you then start down the path of inferring the intent you get into RAI territory and thus debating on whether Wizardly Quill reduces the cost is, in fact, a reasonable debate.

As another example of how rule interpretation gets squirrely, there is a somewhat famous debate on whether Create Bonfire sheds visible light and to what effect and radius. Some say it does not because the rules don't mention anything about light. Some say it does because "DUH, it's fire"

I wouldn't have any special problems with the magical quill eating gold, though the whole way it interacts with copying spells doesn't actually make sense (making a backup spellbook takes 1 hour and 10 gp per spell level, vs 2 hours and 50 gp for a new spell, which means the extra 1 hour and 40 gp is for experimenting, not writing, and thus shouldn't be reduced by a magical quill).

Quote from Dwayden >>

[Redacted]

If I want to have the Wizardly Quill eat the gold and turn that into whatever is needed to scribe the spell and the DM is okay with that, then I can do that!

I was simply pointing out that staunch defenders of RAW use the logic of "You should infer as little as possible from the words written" and that same logic can be used to conclude that going to a shop is not needed as you have to infer that because it is not explicitly stated. And, if you then start down the path of inferring the intent you get into RAI territory and thus debating on whether Wizardly Quill reduces the cost is, in fact, a reasonable debate.

As another example of how rule interpretation gets squirrely, there is a somewhat famous debate on whether Create Bonfire sheds visible light and to what effect and radius. Some say it does not because the rules don't mention anything about light. Some say it does because "DUH, it's fire"

 Ok sorry.  But remember this Topic (Rule and Game Mechanics) is not for discussion of Home Brew rules.   Logic can not be used to conclude that you don't need to purchase/acquire materials costing 50gp (per spell level).  The RAW says it costs 50gp.  This doesn't need to be defined further, RAW is very clear that something costing 50gp must be bought/acquired/stolen or whatever.  There are certain concepts that are so basic that they are simply "understood" and do not cross over into the realm of "as intended (aka RAI)" or the "spirit of" type thing.

RAW here says you got to spend 50gp on something. You'll likely go to a shop for that.  Or maybe a friendly wizard will give it to you or whatnot...but those things/supplies cost the 50gp.  The Wizardly Quill in no way, no how, by any stretch of the imagination negates that cost.  [Redacted]

Let me reiterate my motivation on posting on this thread. Some of this is my fault as I may not have made this explicit:

• I think, but am not certain, that the game designers intended for OoS Wizards to copy spells "in the field". This is based on the totality of all of the features and how they describe the concept of the subclass
• I think, but am not certain, that the game designers intended the cost to copy spells for the subclass to remain 50gp per level and have reduced time of 2 minutes per level.

So, I was wondering how that would work. I made some bad assumptions in thinking that most of you were on board with not having to go a shop.

As far as your comment about "The Wizardly Quill in no way, no how, by any stretch of the imagination negates that cost."

The logic goes like this (and PLEASE PLEASE understand I am not saying this train of thought is correct. I just understand how folks get there):

• Normally when you write stuff in a book with a quill you use ink which costs money
• The Wizardly quill produces its own ink
• Ergo, maybe ... just maybe ... but then again maybe not, using the Wizardly Quill reduces the cost

So, I humbly disagree with the assertion that "The Wizardly Quill in no way, no how, by any stretch of the imagination negates that cost."

Quote from Dwayden >>

(beginning part snipped)

The logic goes like this (and PLEASE PLEASE understand I am not saying this train of thought is correct. I just understand how folks get there):

• Normally when you write stuff in a book with a quill you use ink which costs money
• The Wizardly quill produces its own ink
• Ergo, maybe ... just maybe ... but then again maybe not, using the Wizardly Quill reduces the cost

So, I humbly disagree with the assertion that "The Wizardly Quill in no way, no how, by any stretch of the imagination negates that cost."

 

 Understand that the cost isn’t just limited to the ink. Maybe there’s some 50gp candle or incense you need to burn. The magic quill is awesome in that it reduces a task that normally takes many hours, if not days (if copying several high level spells) to just minutes.  Isn’t that enough for you?  Why quibble about the 50gp per spell level cost, which it seems most people on here agree is still needed with or without the pen?

Quote from Dwayden >>

That was not a complaint. I was simply stating the fact. I don't want 150gp at level one. I do want to adventure to get the scroll and gold to add it to my spell book. I guess I just suck at communicating because I thought I was quite clear about that. The fighter can find better armor and then immediately use that armor. The OoS wizard can find a 1st level spell scroll and 50 gp, but according to AntonSirius' play style cannot immediately add that to their spell list.

 I put a portion of my starting gold towards spell book inks. Though I'll admit I was unaware of the needing identify for spell book rule, so I suspect most of my starting gold would be towards that component from now on. But as soon as I earned a dime, it would go towards spell book inks.  As for the adventure you were on if you level from 1-3 and never take another damaging spell during the leveling process from 1 to 3 I'd personally as a DM say whelp I guess you need to find another way to contribute during the final boss fight. 

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Frankly, I expect arguments like this are why they stopped dressing up the cost as specific materials and made it an overt cash gate in the rules.

 

Might also have just been in the spirit of not limiting flavor, i.e. my magical sticker book idea

 
Honestly, that’d be a worse reason; I get tired of them scrimping on writing lore with the excuse that the people who are already going to ignore it when they want are being obstructed by the existence of some preexisting worldbuilding/characterization framework.

 I taken it further than that and have come to hate the whole I flavor it myself system entirely. I get the concept but the settings and world starts to feel hollow as nothing is built into it.  Every fireball is different, and also its almost entirely for casters. I never see the fighter saying oh its not a long sword its 30 petrified sprites melted together. 

Though I don't mind it much for spell books. How you record things can vary. But I do think end of the day it should be in some semi universal arcane script and not emojis on one spell book and pseudo ancient Latin in another. 

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

 Every fireball is different, and also it’s almost entirely for casters. I never see the fighter saying oh its not a long sword its 30 petrified sprites melted together. 

I love this and I really need to start putting more effort into my weapons.

But I also think this is, at least in part, because every so often you’ll get a new sword, so all the effort goes into a pile somewhere. But your fireball will always be yours.

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

 ....  As for the adventure you were on if you level from 1-3 and never take another damaging spell during the leveling process from 1 to 3 I'd personally as a DM say whelp I guess you need to find another way to contribute during the final boss fight. 

We were level 2. You reach level 3 after you deal with the Shambling Mound at the end. If I remember correctly her damaging spells at level 2 were Ray of Frost, Burning Hands and she had chosen Witch Bolt upon leveling up to 2. Cold and Fire do half damage, the spells she chose when leveling up was not just useless, it healed the monster. BTW, we all died a horrible death in that fight.

For the love of Moradin's Beard, I'm not really arguing strongly about the quill reducing the cost. I do feel strongly about having to go to a shop. But whatever, we can agree to disagree. But ... Again ... I do see the logic used by those that say the cost should be reduced despite realizing that is not the case. But here, does this help ... Ahem ...

[Redacted]

 I am just trying to see if I can get you to understand why some would intuitively think the Wizardly Quill might reduce the cost.

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

I taken it further than that and have come to hate the whole I flavor it myself system entirely. I get the concept but the settings and world starts to feel hollow as nothing is built into it.  Every fireball is different, and also its almost entirely for casters. I never see the fighter saying oh its not a long sword its 30 petrified sprites melted together. 

Ashley Johnson is playing a paladin in the current CR campaign whose "halberd" is actually a religious censer with spikes on it, attached to a length of chain. Still a reach weapon, still uses GWM with it etc., but it's very much not a polearm

How much flavor choices are "built into the world" is also kind of up to the DM. Those are the things you work out before the campaign starts, either by tying character choices in the way you would backstory hooks, or by setting boundaries during character creation

Sure, if you let players just do whatever they want, you'll end up with character concepts that may not match either the tone of the campaign, or even each other. So... don't do that, if that's not the kind of mayhem you like

Quote from Dwayden >>

For the love of Moradin's Beard, I'm not really arguing strongly about the quill reducing the cost. I do feel strongly about having to go to a shop. But whatever, we can agree to disagree. But ... Again ... I do see the logic used by those that say the cost should be reduced despite realizing that is not the case. But here, does this help ... Ahem ...

[Redacted]

 I am just trying to see if I can get you to understand why some would intuitively think the Wizardly Quill might reduce the cost.

 It does greatly reduce the TIME cost. That should be enough. 😝

I had an idea that I think is somewhat clever.

What if, before leaving town, a wizard procures from a local magical scrivener establishment a portable Acquisitioner of Transcription Materials or ATM. This magical device is a small box or pouch that allows one to put gold or other valuables in increments of 50gp inside. The valuables are then transported to the shop/establishment into a corresponding receptacle. In exchange, the folks at the shop transport enough "stuff" to scribe one level of spell into a spellbook. If you need more levels you do it again. The "ATM" will only allow gold and valuables that the shop will accept to be transported to them and this is one way (in other words gold and valuables cannot go back). And, the specific "stuff" is only allowed to transport from the shop back to that "ATM".

This would allow a wizard who finds a Scroll of Magic Missile and has 50gp to get the "stuff" needed to scribe the spell from the scroll into their spellbook without having to trot back into town.

Does this work within RAW? Obviously I think it does. But, what do y'all think?

Quote from EdO06057 >>

 It does greatly reduce the TIME cost. That should be enough. 😝

 I think, but I must admit I am not positive, that the game designers agree with you. And, I don't think this cost is a huge burden or anything like that.

Quote from Dwayden >>

I had an idea that I think is somewhat clever.

What if, before leaving town, a wizard procures from a local magical scrivener establishment a portable Acquisitioner of Transcription Materials or ATM. This magical device is a small box or pouch that allows one to put gold or other valuables in increments of 50gp inside. The valuables are then transported to the shop/establishment into a corresponding receptacle. In exchange, the folks at the shop transport enough "stuff" to scribe one level of spell into a spellbook. If you need more levels you do it again. The "ATM" will only allow gold and valuables that the shop will accept to be transported to them and this is one way (in other words gold and valuables cannot go back). And, the specific "stuff" is only allowed to transport from the shop back to that "ATM".

This would allow a wizard who finds a Scroll of Magic Missile and has 50gp to get the "stuff" needed to scribe the spell from the scroll into their spellbook without having to trot back into town.

Does this work within RAW? Obviously I think it does. But, what do y'all think?

 Well, you’ve invented a homebrew item, and all homebrew is RAW, in that making homebrew is permitted. Simultaneously no homebrew is RAW, as it does not appear in the books. So, there’s a bit of a philosophical question in there.

Personally, I just spend the money and scribe the scroll because tracking how much special ink I have on hand is not my idea of fun. But, hey, if homebrewing an item gets you across the finish line, go crazy. 

Quote from Xalthu >>

Personally, I just spend the money and scribe the scroll because tracking how much special ink I have on hand is not my idea of fun. But, hey, if homebrewing an item gets you across the finish line, go crazy. 

Yeah, that works too. It's just a bit boring. Also, some on here seem to be fixated on the idea of having to buy "stuff" to do the copying.