When you get the subclass feature that lets you cast a cantrip in lieu of an attack you make with the attack action, can the replaced attack be the offhand attack? (Assume a Light weapon and the Nick mastery so the off-hand attack is part of the attack action).
I think a very strict reading of the Valor Bard's Extra Attack feature would say no, since it says "in place of one of those attacks", i.e. one of the two attacks that are part of the Extra Attack feature. But I think in practice it matters very little which one you replace with a cantrip, and I would allow it if I were DMing.
I think a very strict reading of the Valor Bard's Extra Attack feature would say no, since it says "in place of one of those attacks", i.e. one of the two attacks that are part of the Extra Attack feature. But I think in practice it matters very little which one you replace with a cantrip, and I would allow it if I were DMing.
Hmm... I suppose its how you interpret "those". If its directly referencing attack twice, then its just those two attacks. If its referencing the Attack action, the nick attack should qualify, right? Better wording could have made this clearer.
Edit: Eldritch Fighter has different wording. :facepalm: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a casting of one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action." That would definitely seem to include the Nick attack.
Do we think these two abilities are supposed to work differently?
No you can only replace one of the attack from the Attack action, not the extra attack of the Light property.
But Nick makes the extra attack from the Light property an attack from the Attack action, doesn't it?
It does, but only when you make the extra attack with a Light weapon & Nick Mastery. Otherwise it's done as a Bonus Action.
As a Valor Bard or Eldritch Knight Fighter, when you take the Attack action, you can attack twice instead of once.
You can also make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Light weapon or as part of the Attack action instead with Nick Mastery.
So in order to be able to make such extra attack, you must use a Light weapon specifically meaning you can't replace it with a spell with War Magic or Extra Attack from Valor.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
I mean, either way, you're using an Attack action to make two weapon attacks and cast one cantrip. The only reason it would matter which of the three attacks is replaced by the cantrip is that the Light/Nick attack has to be made with a different weapon from one of the two regular attacks. So, if you replace one of the regular attacks with a cantrip, the other two attacks have to be made with different weapons, whereas if you replace the Light/Nick attack they can (but don't have to be) made with the same weapon.
That might potentially make a difference if you're using two weapons that are mechanically different in some way — e.g. one's a scimitar and one's a dagger so they have different damage dice, or one's magical and one's not — but otherwise it doesn't matter at all.
I think a very strict reading of the Valor Bard's Extra Attack feature would say no, since it says "in place of one of those attacks", i.e. one of the two attacks that are part of the Extra Attack feature. But I think in practice it matters very little which one you replace with a cantrip, and I would allow it if I were DMing.
Hmm... I suppose its how you interpret "those". If its directly referencing attack twice, then its just those two attacks. If its referencing the Attack action, the nick attack should qualify, right? Better wording could have made this clearer.
Edit: Eldritch Fighter has different wording. :facepalm: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a casting of one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action." That would definitely seem to include the Nick attack.
Do we think these two abilities are supposed to work differently?
No, I really don't think they're intended to work differently. I think the reason the Eldritch Knight feature is worded differently is that it's operating under the assumption that you already have an Extra Attack feature, while the Valor Bard one is assuming that you don't.
Basically, until you make the extra attack with a Light weapon & Nick Mastery, it's not part of the Attack action, this resource is a Bonus Action instead.
You need the right Weapon Mastery Property when you make it to shift it in the Attack action, so you can't replace the extra attack of the Light Property this way.
EDIT I vaguely recall it being discussed on these forum before perhaps i can cast Summon TarodNet to find out.
Basically, until you make the extra attack with a Light weapon & Nick Mastery, it's not part of the Attack action, this resource is a Bonus Action instead.
You need the right Weapon Mastery Property when you make it to shift it in the Attack action, so you can't replace the extra attack of the Light Property this way.
EDIT I vaguely recall it being discussed on these forum before perhaps i can cast Summon TarodNet to find out.
Your explanations there changed the opinion I had up to that moment, to be honest, same for the ones from Thezzaruz (#17) and this great, funny comment from jl8e:D
I agree that War Magic would work with Haste. I just don't see, within the rules, what the difference is between an extra attack granted by Haste and an extra attack granted by Light/Nick. They're both done as part of an Attack action
One is conditional on using a Light (possibly one with Nick) weapon to make it. The argument is that, because of the preconditions, you can't go "I'll attack with my scimitar... just kidding, I cast a spell." It has merit, but, as I said above, there's not enough text there to officially rule either way.
Basically, until you make the extra attack with a Light weapon & Nick Mastery, it's not part of the Attack action, this resource is a Bonus Action instead.
You need the right Weapon Mastery Property when you make it to shift it in the Attack action, so you can't replace the extra attack of the Light Property this way.
EDIT I vaguely recall it being discussed on these forum before perhaps i can cast Summon TarodNet to find out.
What if its a cantrip that involves making an attack action? (True Strike, Booming Blade, or Green-fire) Then you are still making an attack with a weapon with the light property with that attack.
Basically, until you make the extra attack with a Light weapon & Nick Mastery, it's not part of the Attack action, this resource is a Bonus Action instead.
You need the right Weapon Mastery Property when you make it to shift it in the Attack action, so you can't replace the extra attack of the Light Property this way.
EDIT I vaguely recall it being discussed on these forum before perhaps i can cast Summon TarodNet to find out.
What if its a cantrip that involves making an attack action? (True Strike, Booming Blade, or Green-fire) Then you are still making an attack with a weapon with the light property with that attack.
It's actually doubtful that, if you can replace the nick attack with a spell, that the spell is in any way restricted in what weapon you can use. The attack is gone, and the spell has no such inherent restriction.
Could you rule that it is? Sure.
Does it make sense to do so? Sure.
But there's nothing in RAW about carrying over any restrictions on the attack to the spell.
On the other hand, even the basic question is outside the borders of RAW-land.
Edit: Keep in mind that there are no cantrips that involve making an "attack action". All the weapon attack cantrips have you make an attack with a weapon, but that is not the same thing. It's also mostly irrelevant to the question at hand, but one really needs to avoid being careless about the distinction, because it's inherently confusing.
Your explanations there changed the opinion I had up to that moment, to be honest, same for the ones from Thezzaruz (#17) and this great, funny comment from jl8e:D
I agree that War Magic would work with Haste. I just don't see, within the rules, what the difference is between an extra attack granted by Haste and an extra attack granted by Light/Nick. They're both done as part of an Attack action
One is conditional on using a Light (possibly one with Nick) weapon to make it. The argument is that, because of the preconditions, you can't go "I'll attack with my scimitar... just kidding, I cast a spell." It has merit, but, as I said above, there's not enough text there to officially rule either way.
And as I think I responded at the time, "I'll attack with my scimitar... just kidding, I cast a spell" is the entire reason for features like War Magic in the first place. So I don't really buy it as an argument against subbing in a cantrip for the Nick attack
I will say that RAW, the difference in wording between War Magic and the Valor bard's Extra Attack feature would matter, since the EK just gets to replace any attack made during the Attack action with a cantrip, while the Valor bard specifically has to replace an attack gained via their Extra Attack feature. I'm actually OK with that difference narratively, since mixing magic and melee is what EKs are trained for
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
When you get the subclass feature that lets you cast a cantrip in lieu of an attack you make with the attack action, can the replaced attack be the offhand attack? (Assume a Light weapon and the Nick mastery so the off-hand attack is part of the attack action).
I think a very strict reading of the Valor Bard's Extra Attack feature would say no, since it says "in place of one of those attacks", i.e. one of the two attacks that are part of the Extra Attack feature. But I think in practice it matters very little which one you replace with a cantrip, and I would allow it if I were DMing.
pronouns: he/she/they
No you can only replace one of the attack from the Attack action, not the extra attack of the Light property.
But Nick makes the extra attack from the Light property an attack from the Attack action, doesn't it?
Hmm... I suppose its how you interpret "those". If its directly referencing attack twice, then its just those two attacks. If its referencing the Attack action, the nick attack should qualify, right? Better wording could have made this clearer.
Edit: Eldritch Fighter has different wording. :facepalm: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a casting of one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action." That would definitely seem to include the Nick attack.
Do we think these two abilities are supposed to work differently?
It does, but only when you make the extra attack with a Light weapon & Nick Mastery. Otherwise it's done as a Bonus Action.
As a Valor Bard or Eldritch Knight Fighter, when you take the Attack action, you can attack twice instead of once.
You can also make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Light weapon or as part of the Attack action instead with Nick Mastery.
So in order to be able to make such extra attack, you must use a Light weapon specifically meaning you can't replace it with a spell with War Magic or Extra Attack from Valor.
I mean, either way, you're using an Attack action to make two weapon attacks and cast one cantrip. The only reason it would matter which of the three attacks is replaced by the cantrip is that the Light/Nick attack has to be made with a different weapon from one of the two regular attacks. So, if you replace one of the regular attacks with a cantrip, the other two attacks have to be made with different weapons, whereas if you replace the Light/Nick attack they can (but don't have to be) made with the same weapon.
That might potentially make a difference if you're using two weapons that are mechanically different in some way — e.g. one's a scimitar and one's a dagger so they have different damage dice, or one's magical and one's not — but otherwise it doesn't matter at all.
pronouns: he/she/they
No, I really don't think they're intended to work differently. I think the reason the Eldritch Knight feature is worded differently is that it's operating under the assumption that you already have an Extra Attack feature, while the Valor Bard one is assuming that you don't.
pronouns: he/she/they
Basically, until you make the extra attack with a Light weapon & Nick Mastery, it's not part of the Attack action, this resource is a Bonus Action instead.
You need the right Weapon Mastery Property when you make it to shift it in the Attack action, so you can't replace the extra attack of the Light Property this way.
EDIT I vaguely recall it being discussed on these forum before perhaps i can cast Summon TarodNet to find out.
At your service, my friend.
The OP's question about replacing the extra attack granted by Light or Nick using a spell was discussed here Questions regarding Shillelagh, War Magic, True Strike and Extra attacks, at least.
There are more threads out there, but that's the big one :D
Thank you TarodNet i knew you'd find!
I like this post i made near the end :)
Your explanations there changed the opinion I had up to that moment, to be honest, same for the ones from Thezzaruz (#17) and this great, funny comment from jl8e :D
What if its a cantrip that involves making an attack action? (True Strike, Booming Blade, or Green-fire) Then you are still making an attack with a weapon with the light property with that attack.
It's actually doubtful that, if you can replace the nick attack with a spell, that the spell is in any way restricted in what weapon you can use. The attack is gone, and the spell has no such inherent restriction.
Could you rule that it is? Sure.
Does it make sense to do so? Sure.
But there's nothing in RAW about carrying over any restrictions on the attack to the spell.
On the other hand, even the basic question is outside the borders of RAW-land.
Edit: Keep in mind that there are no cantrips that involve making an "attack action". All the weapon attack cantrips have you make an attack with a weapon, but that is not the same thing. It's also mostly irrelevant to the question at hand, but one really needs to avoid being careless about the distinction, because it's inherently confusing.
And as I think I responded at the time, "I'll attack with my scimitar... just kidding, I cast a spell" is the entire reason for features like War Magic in the first place. So I don't really buy it as an argument against subbing in a cantrip for the Nick attack
I will say that RAW, the difference in wording between War Magic and the Valor bard's Extra Attack feature would matter, since the EK just gets to replace any attack made during the Attack action with a cantrip, while the Valor bard specifically has to replace an attack gained via their Extra Attack feature. I'm actually OK with that difference narratively, since mixing magic and melee is what EKs are trained for
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)