Im planning on making a custom spell as part of a quest. Essentially its going to be a Greater Banishment. I want it only be able to be cast as a ritual for most of the campaign.
Could a level 3 player cast a lets say level 7 spell as a ritual ?
No. The only possible exception would be if it was on their class spell list, and they were using a scroll, so the normal spell scroll rules applied (ie, they've have to make an ability check).
All I can find about Ritual casting is from the PHB
Rituals
Certain spells have a special tag: ritual. Such a spell can be cast following the normal rules for spellcasting, or the spell can be cast as a ritual. The ritual version of a spell takes 10 minutes longer to cast than normal. It also doesn't expend a spell slot, which means the ritual version of a spell can't be cast at a higher level.
To cast a spell as a ritual, a spellcaster must have a feature that grants the ability to do so. The cleric and the druid, for example, have such a feature. The caster must also have the spell prepared or on his or her list of spells known, unless the character's ritual feature specifies otherwise, as the wizard's does.
Basically i want it to work more like a magic item then a true spell. It will come from a holy book, and can only be cast by certain classes such as Cleric or Paladin (probably a divine soul sorcerer as well) low level players will have to cast it as ritual while high level players will be able to just cast it.
Im planning on making a custom spell as part of a quest. Essentially its going to be a Greater Banishment. I want it only be able to be cast as a ritual for most of the campaign.
Could a level 3 player cast a lets say level 7 spell as a ritual ?
Keep in mind that as the DM, if you want something to happen a certain way in your world, it will. That said, I would try to have an explanation for why it happens that way ready. Perhaps there is a magic item that specifically allows it to happen. Maybe special circumstances, a sentient weapon or item, or simply an NPC of the appropriate spellcaster level.
All I can find about Ritual casting is from the PHB
Rituals
Certain spells have a special tag: ritual. Such a spell can be cast following the normal rules for spellcasting, or the spell can be cast as a ritual. The ritual version of a spell takes 10 minutes longer to cast than normal. It also doesn't expend a spell slot, which means the ritual version of a spell can't be cast at a higher level.
To cast a spell as a ritual, a spellcaster must have a feature that grants the ability to do so. The cleric and the druid, for example, have such a feature. The caster must also have the spell prepared or on his or her list of spells known, unless the character's ritual feature specifies otherwise, as the wizard's does.
Basically i want it to work more like a magic item then a true spell. It will come from a holy book, and can only be cast by certain classes such as Cleric or Paladin (probably a divine soul sorcerer as well) low level players will have to cast it as ritual while high level players will be able to just cast it.
“Such a spell can be cast following the normal rules for spellcasting, “
Keep in mind that as the DM, if you want something to happen a certain way in your world, it will. That said, I would try to have an explanation for why it happens that way ready. Perhaps there is a magic item that specifically allows it to happen. Maybe special circumstances, a sentient weapon or item, or simply an NPC of the appropriate spellcaster level.
This is what i was thinking. If you want to do a thing in your game, then yeah, you should do it. Since you asked in the Rule subforum, we are going to try to find a way to help you do your thing in a way that makes sense in the context of the game's rules. I think Jhfffan's idea of a magic item or a magical location allowing this extraordinary thing to happen is the way to go.
Heck, make it a magic candle that has to be lit and then you perform a ritual in front of it for the spell to go off. Now it's the character using the item to cast the spell and you're good to go.
Keep in mind that as the DM, if you want something to happen a certain way in your world, it will. That said, I would try to have an explanation for why it happens that way ready. Perhaps there is a magic item that specifically allows it to happen. Maybe special circumstances, a sentient weapon or item, or simply an NPC of the appropriate spellcaster level.
This is what i was thinking. If you want to do a thing in your game, then yeah, you should do it. Since you asked in the Rule subforum, we are going to try to find a way to help you do your thing in a way that makes sense in the context of the game's rules. I think Jhfffan's idea of a magic item or a magical location allowing this extraordinary thing to happen is the way to go.
Heck, make it a magic candle that has to be lit and then you perform a ritual in front of it for the spell to go off. Now it's the character using the item to cast the spell and you're good to go.
As you can see, wizards can rewrite ritual spell that higher of their max spell slot spell, and he don't need to prepare them, and by far this is most imba power to use, but even by RAW it's 100% possible, ability check to rewrite and after that you can cast it as ritual. Again you need to be wizard, find access to scroll of spell that is ritual, rewrite it with successfull ability check, then cast it as much as you want. And one more time, AGAIN BY RAW YES YOU CAN, even if DM is opposite to it, ignore it,even DM cannot do nothing about it, just accept. By RAW no restriction and clarification about this, and this is only reason why this is possible.
... And one more time, AGAIN BY RAW YES YOU CAN, even if DM is opposite to it, ignore it,even DM cannot do nothing about it, just accept.
Why are you arguing for people to have adversarial relationships in their games? This is... not the way to run a healthy game.
Not to mention you are absolutely incorrect in your conclusion anyway.
From the spellbook sidebar:
When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
and from the ritual casting feature for wizards:
You can cast a wizard spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and you have the spell in your spellbook. You don’t need to have the spell prepared.
So, no, wizards cannot just rewrite a spell and then have access to rituals beyond the level that they can cast.
So, the real reason you can't upcast a ritual spell: Upcasting a spell requires you to use a larger spell slot than the base level of the spell. When casting a spell in any way that isn't just with a spell slot, such as through a feat or magic item, it's always at its base level. (Anything that makes an exception is, obviously, an exception due to Specific Beats General.)
Therefore, when not casting with a slot, because Ritual Casting doesn't say you can cast at a higher level, you cast at the base level.
That said, to address the reason the OP wants this to happen: Just create an item or a special ritual that doesn't follow normal spellcasting rules. It's your game.
This is a four year old thread. I hope the OP has solved his problem by now.
Also, exactly one ritual has an "At higher levels" section. Upcasting (casting with a higher level slot) was not the question, but rather being able to cast rituals whose base level is above the level that you could normally cast - i.e. a third level character casting a 7th level ritual.
The ritual caster feat does allow you to cast higher than normal level ritual spells. But only in specific cases. Such as half casters and 1/3 casters.
From the description. "The spell must be on the spell list for the class you chose, the spell’s level can be no higher than half your level (rounded up), and it must have the ritual tag. "
Lets say a rogue AT can cast 2 first level spells at 3rd level but having the ritual caster feat he could also cast 2nd level ritual spells that he knows.
When casting a spell in any way that isn't just with a spell slot, such as through a feat or magic item, it's always at its base level. (Anything that makes an exception is, obviously, an exception due to Specific Beats General.)
Therefore, when not casting with a slot, because Ritual Casting doesn't say you can cast at a higher level, you cast at the base level.
I am just wondering where you found this bit of clarification in 2024. What are you using as reference for these statements in the 2024 ruleset?
In 2014 this was explicitly spelled out - "Certain spells have a special tag: ritual. Such a spell can be cast following the normal rules for spellcasting, or the spell can be cast as a ritual. The ritual version of a spell takes 10 minutes longer to cast than normal. It also doesn’t expend a spell slot, which means the ritual version of a spell can’t be cast at a higher level."
That's true, but just for answering OdoTheArmyWinner about where to find how this works in 2024, you can only upcast by using a slot of a higher level than the spell:
Casting without Slots
There are several ways to cast a spell without expending a spell slot:
Cantrips. A cantrip is cast without a spell slot.
Rituals. Certain spells have the Ritual tag in the Casting Time entry. Such a spell can be cast following the normal rules for spellcasting, or it can be cast as a Ritual. The Ritual version of a spell takes 10 minutes longer to cast than normal, but it doesn’t expend a spell slot. To cast a spell as a Ritual, a spellcaster must have it prepared.
Special Abilities. Some characters and monsters have special abilities that allow them to cast specific spells without a spell slot. This casting is usually limited in another way, such as being able to cast the spell a limited number of times per day.
Magic Items.Spell Scrolls and some other magic items contain spells that can be cast without a spell slot. The description of such an item specifies how many times a spell can be cast from it.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting. For instance, if a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 2 slot, that Magic Missile is level 2. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
Some spells, such as Magic Missile and Cure Wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell’s description.
Unless the text says otherwise, a spell cast without a spell slot is cast at its lowest possible level, which is the level that appears in its description.
An example of an exception to this is often found in monster stat blocks. A monster with the Spellcasting action may have spells listed with a “(level # version)” parenthetical. This means the spell is still cast without a spell slot, but its effects are equivalent to a version of the spell cast using a spell slot of the specified level.
Thanks @TarodNet. The provided link to the SAC for 2024 is indeed the only reference that resolves all of my original concerns directly (though I had assumed as much given prior expectations). Cheers!
Thanks @TarodNet. The provided link to the SAC for 2024 is indeed the only reference that resolves all of my original concerns directly (though I had assumed as much given prior expectations). Cheers!
It would have been great if that first sentence from the SAC answer had been in the spellcasting section in the PHB, it had put a quite important rule in an easy to find place. But they didn't. They did put it in some specific rules though so not a total mess.
If you have a spell prepared that has the Ritual tag, you can cast that spell as a Ritual. The Ritual version of a spell takes 10 minutes longer to cast than normal. It also doesn’t expend a spell slot, which means the ritual version of a spell can’t be cast at a higher level. See alsochapter 7.
Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level, doesn’t expend any of the user’s spell slots, and requires no components unless the item’s description notes otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires Concentration. Many items, such as Potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell’s effects with its usual duration. Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell.
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Im planning on making a custom spell as part of a quest. Essentially its going to be a Greater Banishment. I want it only be able to be cast as a ritual for most of the campaign.
Could a level 3 player cast a lets say level 7 spell as a ritual ?
No. The only possible exception would be if it was on their class spell list, and they were using a scroll, so the normal spell scroll rules applied (ie, they've have to make an ability check).
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
All I can find about Ritual casting is from the PHB
Basically i want it to work more like a magic item then a true spell. It will come from a holy book, and can only be cast by certain classes such as Cleric or Paladin (probably a divine soul sorcerer as well) low level players will have to cast it as ritual while high level players will be able to just cast it.
Keep in mind that as the DM, if you want something to happen a certain way in your world, it will. That said, I would try to have an explanation for why it happens that way ready. Perhaps there is a magic item that specifically allows it to happen. Maybe special circumstances, a sentient weapon or item, or simply an NPC of the appropriate spellcaster level.
“Such a spell can be cast following the normal rules for spellcasting, “
to answer your question.
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This is what i was thinking. If you want to do a thing in your game, then yeah, you should do it. Since you asked in the Rule subforum, we are going to try to find a way to help you do your thing in a way that makes sense in the context of the game's rules. I think Jhfffan's idea of a magic item or a magical location allowing this extraordinary thing to happen is the way to go.
Heck, make it a magic candle that has to be lit and then you perform a ritual in front of it for the spell to go off. Now it's the character using the item to cast the spell and you're good to go.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
And have a Kobold try to steal it!
As you can see, wizards can rewrite ritual spell that higher of their max spell slot spell, and he don't need to prepare them, and by far this is most imba power to use, but even by RAW it's 100% possible, ability check to rewrite and after that you can cast it as ritual.
Again you need to be wizard, find access to scroll of spell that is ritual, rewrite it with successfull ability check, then cast it as much as you want. And one more time, AGAIN BY RAW YES YOU CAN, even if DM is opposite to it, ignore it, even DM cannot do nothing about it, just accept.
By RAW no restriction and clarification about this, and this is only reason why this is possible.
Why are you arguing for people to have adversarial relationships in their games? This is... not the way to run a healthy game.
Not to mention you are absolutely incorrect in your conclusion anyway.
From the spellbook sidebar:
and from the ritual casting feature for wizards:
So, no, wizards cannot just rewrite a spell and then have access to rituals beyond the level that they can cast.
So, the real reason you can't upcast a ritual spell: Upcasting a spell requires you to use a larger spell slot than the base level of the spell. When casting a spell in any way that isn't just with a spell slot, such as through a feat or magic item, it's always at its base level. (Anything that makes an exception is, obviously, an exception due to Specific Beats General.)
Therefore, when not casting with a slot, because Ritual Casting doesn't say you can cast at a higher level, you cast at the base level.
That said, to address the reason the OP wants this to happen: Just create an item or a special ritual that doesn't follow normal spellcasting rules. It's your game.
You do not want to give them the spell.
Instead you want to give them a custom magic item that does Greater Banishment. Write it up to do whatever you want it to do.
Later on, if you want to let them learn a spell that does something substantially similar, if you decide you want to do that.
This is a four year old thread. I hope the OP has solved his problem by now.
Also, exactly one ritual has an "At higher levels" section. Upcasting (casting with a higher level slot) was not the question, but rather being able to cast rituals whose base level is above the level that you could normally cast - i.e. a third level character casting a 7th level ritual.
The ritual caster feat does allow you to cast higher than normal level ritual spells.
But only in specific cases. Such as half casters and 1/3 casters.
From the description.
"The spell must be on the spell list for the class you chose, the spell’s level can be no higher than half your level (rounded up), and it must have the ritual tag. "
Lets say a rogue AT can cast 2 first level spells at 3rd level but having the ritual caster feat he could also cast 2nd level ritual spells that he knows.
Sounds like some pretty specific use cases, but yeah, it can be pretty useful in those cases.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I am just wondering where you found this bit of clarification in 2024. What are you using as reference for these statements in the 2024 ruleset?
In 2014 this was explicitly spelled out - "Certain spells have a special tag: ritual. Such a spell can be cast following the normal rules for spellcasting, or the spell can be cast as a ritual. The ritual version of a spell takes 10 minutes longer to cast than normal. It also doesn’t expend a spell slot, which means the ritual version of a spell can’t be cast at a higher level."
The 2024 rules were released after April, so this thread lives entirely in the 2014 ruleset.
That's true, but just for answering OdoTheArmyWinner about where to find how this works in 2024, you can only upcast by using a slot of a higher level than the spell:
Also, there's an answer about it in the 2024 SAC:
Some related 2024 threads:
- Fiendish Vigor (2024) - Rules & Game Mechanics
- D&D 2024 spell level when not spending a spell slot - Rules & Game Mechanics
- Any Official Statements on how 2024 Features/Feats/Etc granting spells work with Upcasting? - Rules & Game Mechanics
Thanks @TarodNet. The provided link to the SAC for 2024 is indeed the only reference that resolves all of my original concerns directly (though I had assumed as much given prior expectations). Cheers!
It would have been great if that first sentence from the SAC answer had been in the spellcasting section in the PHB, it had put a quite important rule in an easy to find place. But they didn't. They did put it in some specific rules though so not a total mess.
Rituals (in the PHB glossary)
Magic Items (in the DMG)